Santos with 19 including the game winning 3 over LSU. Player of the game. And no, I’m not going to do this with every Pitt transfer.
Seriously Nate
- Thread starter sonofabit
- Start date
Wonder why he couldn‘t make them here? 🤷♂️
He reminded me of Yuri Demetris. A 3 point specialist who couldnt shoot. Or maybe Ryan Murphy. I like Santos though. I though higher A10 was too high a level but good for him.
What would the all-Pitt transfer team be right now?
PG - Johnson
SG - Horton
SF - Santos
PF - Payton
C - Hugley
Bench
Drumgoole
Collier
Femi (didnt realize he transferred to NMSU)
Coulibaly
PG - Johnson
SG - Horton
SF - Santos
PF - Payton
C - Hugley
Bench
Drumgoole
Collier
Femi (didnt realize he transferred to NMSU)
Coulibaly
Yes. I saw Umass was up like 8 with not a lot to go and assumed they would pull it out.
Nate finished vs St. John's with 18 pts and 5 rebs & 3 ast! The interesting thing is he's playing the 4 and is averaging 13.5 pts, 8.3 rebs and 6 of 11 from 3!
Santos had 14 points (5-8 shooting) and 5 rebounds against Houston. Houston is ranked the #1 team in the country on pomeroy efficiency site and #2 in the country on Torvik.
Santos year to date totals are
14 points per game
8 rebounds per game
69% from the field
60% from 3
ORTG Offensive Power Rating- 127
So far, he has played Houston, Rick Pitino's St. John's, LSU, all on neutral floors and Northwestern on the road and he already has 1 game winner from 3 this year. And that is all without Dayton's starting point guard playing who is injured for the year.
@Chescat @BballinsiderfromPitt
This is a good lesson for the two of you and anyone else that wants to throw the towel in on a player far too early. Especially you chescat, as you have repeatedly thrown it up to my face regarding Santos and his ability as a player. Now take a look at him and look at the numbers against decent teams, including Houston.
Santos year to date totals are
14 points per game
8 rebounds per game
69% from the field
60% from 3
ORTG Offensive Power Rating- 127
So far, he has played Houston, Rick Pitino's St. John's, LSU, all on neutral floors and Northwestern on the road and he already has 1 game winner from 3 this year. And that is all without Dayton's starting point guard playing who is injured for the year.
@Chescat @BballinsiderfromPitt
This is a good lesson for the two of you and anyone else that wants to throw the towel in on a player far too early. Especially you chescat, as you have repeatedly thrown it up to my face regarding Santos and his ability as a player. Now take a look at him and look at the numbers against decent teams, including Houston.
Santos is not a great player. He started 3/3 early in the game from three and how did he finish when they adjusted, only one more missed attempt from three the whole game. We need playmakers against good teams, not players who can’t create. LSU is a mid major this year. Horton struggled yesterday late against Texas. XJ absent against UConn.
No one said Santos is "great"
Zach Austin is shooting 36% from the field and 15% from 3 on our team and most of those shots have been wide open looks without anyone remotely close to him. Let's pump the brakes knocking a player that is playing like Nate right now in comparison to what Austin has done here against far worse competition to date.
There is room for shooters and guys that rebound on any team in D1. Its just unfortunate Nate is making them now and not at Pitt.
Im happy for him. And he has an ORTG power rating that is really good along with a DR rebound rate of 25%, which is higher than anyone on our roster right now.
I think it is more I’m confused about how the ORTG metric works. Like he was 3/4 from three but only had a rating of 94 for the game? So what other stuff does it factor. Austin has not made threes, but has been over 100 in 3 of 4 games. I can agree Austin has not shot well, but it seems he is also doing other things the metric likes? And if we knew Santos could make threes at even 35 percent I think he would have been back….
ORTG is points produced per 100 individual possessions. The higher the number the better.
The formula for Total Possessions is broken down into four components: Scoring Possessions, Missed FG Possessions, Missed FT Possessions, and Turnovers.
You can read about this more here in the link below. You have an ORTG for offense and DRTG for defense. For defense, the lower the number the better.
Calculating Individual Offensive and Defensive Ratings | Basketball-Reference.com
How to calculate individual offensive and defensive ratings
www.basketball-reference.com
You also need to understand a few things in regards to ORTG for starters.
The usage rate is important. Generally speaking the higher a usage rate, the lower the ORTG by a player. If you have a player that is high in both, he is generally speaking really good.
Another important factor is, is this a go to player on the team or a bench reserve or just a reserve player in the offense. Go to players on the team are going to be going up against the best defenders, at least at the guard spots depending on the other teams versatility. That's going to have an effect.
You also need to look at how good the actual team is down the line. Ish Legett is a perfect example. If you look at his stats at Rhode Island, he had to carry the entire offense because the rest of his team was really bad. That is going to have a negative effect on his ORTG because the entire defensive game plan is going to be trying to stop Ish a lone. Mike Cook was very similar to this. So you have to be careful when just looking at an individual player without actually looking at the entire team.
When you start to follow it a lot, you will pick up on things. A simple rule of thumb is, for a team to be NCAA tournament caliber, that team is generally speaking going to need at least 7 players with an ORTG over 100 on the offensive side of the ball. Sometimes you can get away with 6, but its not often. Most teams have at least 8.
Back to your question regarding Austin. He has 1 turnover in 4 games. His usage rate is really low at Pitt. So because we are not running a lot of possessions through him and he is not making mistakes, it is helping his ORTG rating because he isn't turning the basketball over and wasting possessions. That's fine for now. But at some point, we are going to need him to start making wide open shots in our offense and not be a liability on the floor. Good teams will adjust on defense and sag off him if he can't shoot.
I hope that helps...
It helps a lot. Thanks Vader. I liked Nate. I like Will. I just want Pitt to win. I’m excited and nervous for Wednesday.
It's not so much about Santos. it's about YOU and your
constant overhype about players, the program, and even
Capel on here.
I, like others on here, listened to you telling us how Santos was
going to be a shooting threat here at Pitt. In fact he was often
used as a designated 3 pt shooter in games. Here's his Pitt #'rs.
2021-22: 3 pt - 22%, FG - 32%, ppg - 2.8
2022-23: 3 pt - 15%, Fg - 29%, ppg - 1.6
Putting stats aside, he couldn't put the ball in the ocean. Yes,
I criticized those results, but you're missing the pt. I wasn't
throwing the "towel" in on him...it was YOU I was criticizing.
In fact on a number of occasions I posted about Santos and
his good shooting form and mechanics, but in real time????
I'm glad he's dropped down to A-10 level and doing well.
It sometimes happens when they get to the right level, for
example Malik Ellison. Similar to Santos he too was over
hyped (not by you) and did very little at Pitt.. He drops
down to Hartford and goes for 18ppg. Good for him, good
for Santos. As for you, a bit thin skinned. As for me, I'll
continue to call em as I see em. I don't expect everyone on
here to agree with those calls.
The competition in his first 5 games is ACC level.
LSU already beat Wake Forest. Houston would crush most of the ACC. How many ACC teams would win a road game against Northwestern right now? Northwestern is currently a top 50-60 caliber national team on the efficiency sites. St. John's is also a current top 50-60 caliber national team on the efficiency sites under Rick Pitino. They just handled a decent Utah team.
This isn't A10 competition. It's power 6 competition and one of those games was against one of the 3 best teams in college basketball currently. What would Pitt do with Houston without Carriginton because that is what Nate just faced. Stop with with the A-10 stuff because his first 5 games isn't A-10 level. None of these games were even at home.
Malik Ellison never did anything remotely close to this. And this isn't about me. Its about Santos proving people wrong that doubted him. If Nate keeps this up, he'll have a lot of power 6 teams wanting him to transfer back up a level. You can count on that.
I thought Nate was showing flashes last year at times Some guys take longer to gain confidence at this level. Nate is not the first player who the fan base gave up in early and started to flourish in their junior and senior years. Nate seems like a good kid. Glad it’s worked out for him.
I do think Austin’s athletic ability is something this team needs. He’s been a decent outside shooter before so I doubt he forgot how to shoot. He’s just in a slump ….I hope
As an aside I’ve always appreciated your insights Not sure why some posters give you so much crap
In fact one thing that someone might pick up on is that single game Offensive or Defensive Ratings aren't really worth much. To the point where quoting them to make any kind of point is kind of silly.
Pitt example to illustrate the point. Pitt's ORtg leader in the game against FGC was Will Jeffress. Here was his offensive contribution for the game. In 21 minutes, he made the one shot he took, 2 total points, 2 offensive rebounds, 1 assist, 0 turnovers. Offensive rating, 206.
By way of comparison, Carrington's offensive contribution was 37 minutes, 19 points on 7-7 on ones, 3-3 on twos and 2-6 on threes, 0 offensive rebounds, but 7 assists to 1 turnover. Offensive rating, 163.
Or if you want to compare him to someone who played similar minutes, Jaland Lowe, 15 minutes, 12 points on 3-5 from two and 2-4 from three, no offensive rebounds, 2 assists, 0 turnovers. Offensive rating, 151.
There is no way that anyone who watched that game or who even just looked at the numbers thinks that Jeffress' offensive contribution was anywhere close to as important as Carrington's or Lowe's. And yet Jeffress ended up with a much better Offensive Rating.
Because at such small sample sizes funny things happen to the numbers.
Exactly and well explained. ORTG is a valuable tool but it has to be
taken in context with other stats. Your example with Jeffress is a
perfect example.
The first things a coach usually looks at after a game regarding stats are
factors like a shot sheet...both offensively and defensively, Rebounds...
and by whom, A/TO ratio, FG% % etc. ORTG's are valuable again
within the total context.
Having watched most of Nate's games on TV or in person, it was pretty clear he could play at this level as he showed flashes, but, he couldn't buy a 3 pointer. I think you hit on the key here and that he is more relaxed in his new program. We had shooters here last year, so to earn minutes he needed to make them and felt the pressure. He is relaxed and a good fit for his new program as he could always rebound the basketball at his size.
So far it's looking like I was right again about a player. There was only a couple of us that said Santos >Jeffress. I thought he was a good rebounder, had great form, and a couple times athletically showed me things Jeffress still hasn't matched. It's tough trying to find a rhythm or a role on a team playing sporadically.
I will take Jeffress. He does all the little things and is a lock down defender. Knows his role and plays within himself. I like Santos but he was never going to find his footing here.
