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Starkey

I certainly understand what you are saying ...

... but those are your values, and not everyone agrees with those values. For example, some people value showing appreciation for results, and would believe you don't need to quote trends when things are going bad, because it's obvious that results need to follow or the person responsible will be held accountable as appropriate.

Just a matter of someone's values and perspective.
 
Re: Yes, 4 does seem to be a normal number when looking at College Programs ...

Originally posted by steel_curtain:

With another down season next year and let's say Heron doesn't come here, Dixon is going to start getting ripped badly.
I'd submit that he's getting ripped badly now.
 
Re: I certainly understand what you are saying ...

Originally posted by DT_PITT:
... but those are your values, and not everyone agrees with those values. For example, some people value showing appreciation for results, and would believe you don't need to quote trends when things are going bad, because it's obvious that results need to follow or the person responsible will be held accountable as appropriate.

Just a matter of someone's values and perspective.
Do you prefer covering up for him, out of appreciation for THE PAST? Screw that! He needs pressure put on him, he needs to be percieved publically to be under the gun, he needs to feel uncomfortable so he won't be complacent, and feel that he's secure, if he doesn't start WINNING sooner rather than later. Basically he need to feel like a losing coach in New York City!
chairshot.r191677.gif
... Until he start winning again!
 
Re: I certainly understand what you are saying ...


Originally posted by Pitt79:
Originally posted by DT_PITT:
... but those are your values, and not everyone agrees with those values. For example, some people value showing appreciation for results, and would believe you don't need to quote trends when things are going bad, because it's obvious that results need to follow or the person responsible will be held accountable as appropriate.

Just a matter of someone's values and perspective.
Do you prefer covering up for him, out of appreciation for THE PAST? Screw that! He needs pressure put on him, he needs to be percieved publically to be under the gun, he needs to feel uncomfortable so he won't be complacent, and feel that he's secure, if he doesn't start WINNING sooner rather than later. Basically he need to feel like a losing coach in New York City!
chairshot.r191677.gif
... Until he start winning again!
You complain when we're winning too...so, you aren't exactly a credible voice.

It's your M.O. constantly disappointed.
 
Where did I say in any way, shape or form ...

... in this thread or others that I prefer covering up for him?

And I'm quite certain (not just my opinion but reports from those who know him) that there is not one person who is more concerned with the lack of his team's success than Jamie Dixon.

If you feel that putting more pressure on him on a message board helps, then I cannot dispute your values or perspective.

But that is not everyone's values or perspective.
This post was edited on 3/13 3:22 PM by DT_PITT
 
If they score more with their defense the other team will score more too. It might be more fun to watch a track meet but it's not gonna do much for their wins and losses.
 
Re: I certainly understand what you are saying ...


Originally posted by Pitt79:
Originally posted by DT_PITT:
... but those are your values, and not everyone agrees with those values. For example, some people value showing appreciation for results, and would believe you don't need to quote trends when things are going bad, because it's obvious that results need to follow or the person responsible will be held accountable as appropriate.

Just a matter of someone's values and perspective.
Do you prefer covering up for him, out of appreciation for THE PAST? Screw that! He needs pressure put on him, he needs to be percieved publically to be under the gun, he needs to feel uncomfortable so he won't be complacent, and feel that he's secure, if he doesn't start WINNING sooner rather than later. Basically he need to feel like a losing coach in New York City!
chairshot.r191677.gif
... Until he start winning again!
You complain when we're winning too...so, you aren't exactly a credible voice.

It's your M.O. constantly disappointed.
 
Reply

Whirly was implying that is what the article said by his Subject titled "Should Huggins be on the hot seat too?" Nice to see agreement for a change;) The Pittsburgh media loves to jab Pitt fans...as it always results in a firestorm of letters, etc. This kind of journalism is all the Pittsburgh sports media knows. Hail to Pitt!
 
There is one thing I have legitimately and rightfully complained about for the last decade, and that is the inability to shoot and score the basketball, it has always been a glaring problem, and winning won't make me stop complaining about that, since it's lead to enough losses over time.
 
Re: Jamie was rewarded for his winning results. He owes NOTHING to Pitt.

I'm not entitled to anything from Pitt hoops?

When did I say I was?

Hey I like Jamie but I'm calling a spade a spade he runs the program and needs to be held accountable for it's failures over the last few years. My boss holds me accountable for results so will his boss sooner than later.

I for one am hoping he turns it around he is a good coach who plays by the rules it seems just need more W's
 
I might even suggest ...

..... that it is what all sports media knows.

We probably agree with more than it appears. It's just that you are a professional arguer while I am just an amateur.
 
Re: Jamie was rewarded for his winning results. He owes NOTHING to Pitt.

Hells' fire.....I don't care if Huggins coaches another 1,000 games in Morganhole or 10 more.

I ain't got no dog in that there fight.
tired.r191677.gif


I got one concern and one concern only and I'm buyin' what UP#1 is sellin',

Countability! If ya gonna take the raise to stay, then ya gots to earn the raise. 500 in conference and sub in conference tourney games ain't nuttin more than average.

People like to say be careful what ya ask fer.....well, I sure as sheet know what I got.

Ain't no one above bein' criticized if its fare and this here is fare.......records speke for themselfes.

No dag gummit Jamie, pick it up!!!!

That's all I gots to say 'bout that.
 
Re: Low hanging fruit.....

The lazy cheerleader, polyanna, smiley face fans know exactly what the state of this program is. The difference is how sane the reactions are. The program is in a definite downturn. Some people think it is going to turn around. Some are fine with just bashing dixon. I think it will turn around and soon.
 
Re: Jamie was rewarded for his winning results. He owes NOTHING to Pitt.

Short of firiing, how does one exactly hold a coach accountable? Give him a smaller office? make him run sprints?
 
Re: Jamie was rewarded for his winning results. He owes NOTHING to Pitt.

Gallagher will send Jamie to bed without dessert.
 
Reply

Just so this response is not misunderstood, I fully expect that Pitt holds Jamie 100% accountable for his team and the season results. As for your answer to the question...really is pretty simple. Dixon is an employee just like nearly everyone on this Board. Are you suggesting that all management can do is fire an employee that is not performing or delivering what is expected? That is obviously simply silly. Of course you can fire someone if you are unhappy with their performance. But most enlightened management teams are far more sophisticated and strategic than that. Good management is always willing to work with a valued employee to attempt to get things back on track.

In the private sector, there would likely be several sit down meetings to go over the results. Look at where things went wrong. Get input and feedback from the employee, about what he/she thought and why things went wrong. Likely outcome would be a performance plan to ensure that future results will be better and closer to the plan. There could be some punishment, there could be some additional resources offered, there could be some changes made with other employees on the team, there could be some additional training, etc. Frankly, there are so many options besides firing the under-performing employee...that you could write books on it. And in fact, there are literally hundreds of books written on the subject. Pitt will certainly sit down with Jamie once the season is completed and we will see the results of those meetings when Dixon brings his 2015-16 squad on the floor. Hail to Pitt!
 
Re: Reply

So if they certainly will sit down with him, all these demands of him being held responsible are pretty silly, I agree with you. I suspect many who keep writing that coaches must be held accountable but not fired, have no idea what they are demanding, though you apparently have some ideas. The others are just blathering.
 
Re: Yes, 4 does seem to be a normal number when looking at College Programs ...


Originally posted by DT_PITT:
Originally posted by steel_curtain:

With another down season next year and let's say Heron doesn't come here, Dixon is going to start getting ripped badly.
I'd submit that he's getting ripped badly now.
Dixon has ALWAYS got ripped badly after a loss. Even when they were one seeds, there were people that were on these boards screaming that he was an awful coach, and that Pitt needed to look for someone else.


That is exactly why I think most of this fancies is myopic, and refuse to even entertain a civil discussion with them.
 
Some points of response


Originally posted by Pitt79:

There is one thing I have legitimately and rightfully complained about for the last decade, and that is the inability to shoot and score the basketball, it has always been a glaring problem, and winning won't make me stop complaining about that, since it's lead to enough losses over time.
1st: Pitt79 and offense
You have been constant in your complaints about poor offense.
They have NOT been legitimate and you have constantly been wrong.
National AdjO ranking (offensive efficiency adjusted for tempo) for the past 10 seasons.

2006 #25
2007 #14
2008 #12
2009 # 2
2010 #45
2011 #4
2012 #31
2013 #17
2014 #19
2015 #22

You simply have no idea what you are talking about on this subject. You have the right to any opinion you want but this one only continues to make you look completely out of touch with today's game.

2nd. Almost everybody and Dixon's salary.

Dixon's current salary is NOT directly based on his past performance and future expectations of Final Four's or inflated by his agent. It was determined directly by choosing to match a SPECIFIC competitive offer from USC. Pitt did a quick, quiet survey of other possible replacements and decided it was in our best interests to continue with Dixon as coach. Given UCLA's struggles to replace Howland and Minnesota's to replace Tubby Smith, that looks like a wise move.

Anybody who is in business knows that when faced with a competitive bid/price, particularly for a established customer, no matter how unreasonable it may be, the manager has to make a hard choice whether to match the bid or walk away from that customer and try to find replacement business. There is considerable risk and costs involved to find replacement business in a competitive field.

3rd Dixon's future tenure here:

I think he is entering year 3 of a 10-year contract. The USC offer was supposed to be 10 years, $30 million.
The structure of the deal Jamie signed was supposed to be an 8 year extension, with the $3 million per year being phased into the two years remaining on his former deal. The total was, I think, less than the full $30 million.

Nobody has reported what buyout terms might be in the contract but given that there seems to have been some "hometown discount" in overall terms, there might have been no concession for reduced buyout. In any case, Pitt would seemingly owe Dixon in excess of $20 million even after next season if they chose to push him out. Clearly, at a school where we are still subsidizing the Athletic Department by $7 to 8 million yearly, the administration is not going to take on that kind of burden, especially considering hiring a suitable replacement would likely add in the neighborhood of another $2MM yearly.

Dixon is still in demand nationally. Oregon State floated the idea of throwing money at him earlier this year. If things get too bad here, maybe he would choose to take one of the offers that still come to him and walk away. But, if diminishing returns continue, offers which would cover his buyout are likely to diminish too.
 
Re: Some points of response

The offensive efficiency rating for this season is meaningless. You know why? Pitt is 328th in tempo, we are one of the slowest teams in the country. Those numbers are further inflated because of all the close games Pitt had and the free throw situation at the end of games to ice the game. Those are free scoring possessions for a turtle offense, which is what we are. So obviously our point per possession numbers are skewed when you play so slow. Foul fests at the end of games skew the numbers. Below is the formula. When you are as slow as turtle, have low field goal attempts, and a higher free throw rate in terms of total shot per possession, you skew the numbers. Kind of like Jamie Dixon skewing the rpi in our favor every year. If you guys seriously think Pitt has a Top 20-25 offense this year with zero 3 point firepower, you guys are crazy imo.



field goals attempted - offensive rebounds + turnovers + (0.4 x free throws attempted) = total number of possessions for the season
 
Re: I think it was pretty clear that whirly meant ...


Originally posted by DT_PITT:
... where was this kind of article about WVU last year.
Thank you! But they get free passes when they shit the bed! F starkey....
 
Re: Should Huggins be on the hot seat too?

Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:


Originally posted by whirlybird optio:
I mean, even at 36-36(which happens to include 2011 as the starting point where we were like 8 games under .500 in league and it eschews the data a bit), Pitt is still better in league than WVU who is two games under .500 for that same span. If Joe had used a 3 yr or a 5 yr sample the numbers look very different. Programs have ups and downs, and Pitt will be trending down until they aren't, which should be as soon as next year.

We're their columns written about the fall of WVU basketball, were calls for Huggins to be fired taken seriously? Of course not. WVU was trending down for 3 seasons, now they look back to what Huggins wants.

The reason is that they are both really good coaches and if anyone should get the opportunity to fix it it's Dixon.
expect crickets.

Myopia rules.
Huggins also has a Final 4 at WVU under his belt, in less year's than Jamie has at Pitt.

Crickets returned.
 
If you really think....

that playing slow inflates offensive efficiency then you really have no idea what you are talking about. The one and only one way to increase offensive efficiency is to score more points per possession. Whether you play slow or fast or somewhere in between, you have to score more points per possession. There absolutely is not any way to "game" offensive efficiency like you can the RPI, unless you consider scoring more points per possession to somehow be "gaming" the system. And quite frankly it would be absurd to think that.

VMI is the fastest team in the country. Their offensive efficiency is 293. But BYU is the 7th fastest team and their offensive efficiency is 9th. North Carolina is 10th in tempo and 12th in offense. Mississippi Valley is 5th in tempo but 337 in efficiency. At the other end of the table Virginia is 349 in tempo (3rd from the bottom) and yet 25th in efficiency. Northern Iowa is 348 in tempo and 14th in efficiency. But Denver is the slowest team this year and their efficiency is 130. Cal Poly is 347 in tempo and 212 in efficiency (that must be a painful team to watch). Or how about a PAC12 comparison, Utah and Oregon State are right next to each other in tempo, 324 and 325 respectively, and yet Utah's efficiency is 18 and Oregon State's efficiency is 275.

The fact if the matter is that tempo and offensive efficiency aren't really correlated with each other at all. Which just goes to show, there is more than one way to win basketball games. It seems like someone here has mentioned that before. I wonder who it was?

Oh, and one more thing. You base part of your analysis on the fact that Pitt has a low number of possessions but a high free throw rate, which skews the numbers. What the actual facts are is that Pitt is 240th this year in free throw rate. We actually shoot free throws at a below average rate, not at a high rate. But hey, no sense letting the facts stand in the way of a good argument. Or even a bad one, apparently.
 
Re: Some points of response

If we had Mustapha Heron, we would score 3 points per possession and be the best offensive team in history.
 
Re: If you really think....

Originally posted by Joe the Panther Fan:
that playing slow inflates offensive efficiency then you really have no idea what you are talking about. The one and only one way to increase offensive efficiency is to score more points per possession. Whether you play slow or fast or somewhere in between, you have to score more points per possession. There absolutely is not any way to "game" offensive efficiency like you can the RPI, unless you consider scoring more points per possession to somehow be "gaming" the system. And quite frankly it would be absurd to think that.

VMI is the fastest team in the country. Their offensive efficiency is 293. But BYU is the 7th fastest team and their offensive efficiency is 9th. North Carolina is 10th in tempo and 12th in offense. Mississippi Valley is 5th in tempo but 337 in efficiency. At the other end of the table Virginia is 349 in tempo (3rd from the bottom) and yet 25th in efficiency. Northern Iowa is 348 in tempo and 14th in efficiency. But Denver is the slowest team this year and their efficiency is 130. Cal Poly is 347 in tempo and 212 in efficiency (that must be a painful team to watch). Or how about a PAC12 comparison, Utah and Oregon State are right next to each other in tempo, 324 and 325 respectively, and yet Utah's efficiency is 18 and Oregon State's efficiency is 275.

The fact if the matter is that tempo and offensive efficiency aren't really correlated with each other at all. Which just goes to show, there is more than one way to win basketball games. It seems like someone here has mentioned that before. I wonder who it was?

Oh, and one more thing. You base part of your analysis on the fact that Pitt has a low number of possessions but a high free throw rate, which skews the numbers. What the actual facts are is that Pitt is 240th this year in free throw rate. We actually shoot free throws at a below average rate, not at a high rate. But hey, no sense letting the facts stand in the way of a good argument. Or even a bad one, apparently.
Regardless, we have a slow pace comparatively speaking and all of these basketball analytics (which are just slightly more relevant than hockey analytics) are just math geeks with too much time and too many spreadsheets trying to explain something that a final score, an overall record and your eyeballs can tell you just as accurately.
 
I know that we disagree....

on the notion that this is about "math geeks with too much time and too many spreadsheets trying to
explain something that a final score, an overall record and your
eyeballs can tell you just as accurately." And that's fine. To each his own. I'll just point out that pretty much every NBA team, including all the good ones, and most of the P5 D1 college teams are on my side of the "argument" and leave it at that.
 
Re: I know that we disagree....


Originally posted by Joe the Panther Fan:
on the notion that this is about "math geeks with too much time and too many spreadsheets trying to
explain something that a final score, an overall record and your
eyeballs can tell you just as accurately." And that's fine. To each his own. I'll just point out that pretty much every NBA team, including all the good ones, and most of the P5 D1 college teams are on my side of the "argument" and leave it at that.
How exactly are these teams using analytics? What have you seen as a new trend in college basketball that convinces you that analytics has materially effected how coaches are coaching?
 
Re: If you really think....


Originally posted by recruitsreadtheseboards:
Originally posted by Joe the Panther Fan:
that playing slow inflates offensive efficiency then you really have no idea what you are talking about. The one and only one way to increase offensive efficiency is to score more points per possession. Whether you play slow or fast or somewhere in between, you have to score more points per possession. There absolutely is not any way to "game" offensive efficiency like you can the RPI, unless you consider scoring more points per possession to somehow be "gaming" the system. And quite frankly it would be absurd to think that.

VMI is the fastest team in the country. Their offensive efficiency is 293. But BYU is the 7th fastest team and their offensive efficiency is 9th. North Carolina is 10th in tempo and 12th in offense. Mississippi Valley is 5th in tempo but 337 in efficiency. At the other end of the table Virginia is 349 in tempo (3rd from the bottom) and yet 25th in efficiency. Northern Iowa is 348 in tempo and 14th in efficiency. But Denver is the slowest team this year and their efficiency is 130. Cal Poly is 347 in tempo and 212 in efficiency (that must be a painful team to watch). Or how about a PAC12 comparison, Utah and Oregon State are right next to each other in tempo, 324 and 325 respectively, and yet Utah's efficiency is 18 and Oregon State's efficiency is 275.

The fact if the matter is that tempo and offensive efficiency aren't really correlated with each other at all. Which just goes to show, there is more than one way to win basketball games. It seems like someone here has mentioned that before. I wonder who it was?

Oh, and one more thing. You base part of your analysis on the fact that Pitt has a low number of possessions but a high free throw rate, which skews the numbers. What the actual facts are is that Pitt is 240th this year in free throw rate. We actually shoot free throws at a below average rate, not at a high rate. But hey, no sense letting the facts stand in the way of a good argument. Or even a bad one, apparently.
Regardless, we have a slow pace comparatively speaking and all of these basketball analytics (which are just slightly more relevant than hockey analytics) are just math geeks with too much time and too many spreadsheets trying to explain something that a final score, an overall record and your eyeballs can tell you just as accurately.
Translation:

I don't understand the concept so I am going to dismiss it.
 
The one obvious answer....

at the macro level is Harve's favorite complaint, that teams are shooing more threes than ever before, driving more to the basket than ever before, and shooting less mid-range and long twos than ever before. Or haven't you noticed?
 
Re: The one obvious answer....

Originally posted by Joe the Panther Fan:
at the macro level is Harve's favorite complaint, that teams are shooing more threes than ever before, driving more to the basket than ever before, and shooting less mid-range and long twos than ever before. Or haven't you noticed?
And scoring is down. Go figure.
 
Yes it is....

but of course one doesn't really have anything to do with the other, does it?

Scoring is down for several reasons, chief among them that teams keep playing slower and slower on offense and more and more coaches are emphasizing defense over offense. Shot selection doesn't really have anything to do with either of those.
 
Re: Yes it is....

Originally posted by Joe the Panther Fan:
but of course one doesn't really have anything to do with the other, does it?

Scoring is down for several reasons, chief among them that teams keep playing slower and slower on offense and more and more coaches are emphasizing defense over offense. Shot selection doesn't really have anything to do with either of those.
Shot selection most assuredly has something to do with scoring.
 
Of course it does....

but that wasn't actually what I was saying. Shot selection doesn't really have anything to do with teams playing slower and shot selection doesn't have anything to do with coaches emphasizing defense over offense. Just imagine how much worse scoring would be if analytics hadn't come along and convinced people to stop shooting less optimal shots more often.

But yeah, if you want to say that analytics have improved shot selection and are responsible for the game not being quite as bad as it would be without them then I'm with you 100%. Of course that wasn't what you were trying to argue, but it is the argument you ended up making. And all along I thought that was my side of the argument. Thanks.
 
Re: Of course it does....

Sorry but coach Dixon has a winning record against ole huggy bear and PITT will be improved next year. I can give a rats ass about Huggins has a final four under his belt only to have his team get their asses beat by Duke. I get sick and tired of how most of you bitch and complain, I'm sure you weren't doing that when we beat both NC and ND. Give it a freakin rest already......It is absurd to think we should fire Dixon regardless of the stiller sniffer starkey says. Love how st penn and cc get free passes when they have poor seasons. Let's just see how Jamie does next year, thank you.
 
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