The Most Disappointing Pitt Team In Recent Memory

[str61166]

Common sense said that losing Bub and Hinson meant the path to being close to last year's time, once it found its stride, would have to involve Amsal and Cohren being very good players. Well, not so much.

Along with an assumption along those lines, it also assumed Lowe and Leggett would improve. And if you look at most stats, it would seem like they have. But watching these games, they just haven’t been winning players. And it’s a shame, because both guys had their moments in big wins last year, like Jaland at Duke, Ish against Wake. Just doesn’t seem like these new roles for them and their supporting cast (namely not having an 3 pt assassin in Blake, and Bub) are working out.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Along with an assumption along those lines, it also assumed Lowe and Leggett would improve. And if you look at most stats, it would seem like they have. But watching these games, they just haven’t been winning players. And it’s a shame, because both guys had their moments in big wins last year, like Jaland at Duke, Ish against Wake. Just doesn’t seem like these new roles for them and their supporting cast (namely not having an 3 pt assassin in Blake, and Bub) are working out.

Lowe doesn't strike me as a leader at all. He is the dude whose dad rides him to the games in a Cadillac to meet up with the rest of the team who arrived via bus. I never see him communicating with/rallying/getting up in the faces of his teammates, etc. Just feels like he's kind of doing his own thing and this whole team thing is simply a means to an end.

 

[Baddest Cat]

Isn’t that a good thing ?
That loyal fans feel ownership of their seats ?

Let me ask you this question-
Do you think donation levels for basketball are higher now than prior to the last reseat ?’

Buddy - you’re selling a bad idea.
Kansas , UNC, and Duke aren’t reshuffling their loyal fans regularly - since im
Friends with season ticket holders for all 3.

Agree.

Let's also look at it another way. Which do you think will be larger? The amount Pitt has received/will receive in ad-hoc, pre-reseat donations, or the amount of season ticket revenue lost when more of the few remaining core fans throw their hands up and say "eff it"?

At the end of the day I know I'll have good seats regardless. But even if I have to move a couple of rows or a couple of seats in from the aisle, it's going to piss me off and not make me feel like the loyal customer that I am.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Agree.

Let's also look at it another way. Which do you think will be larger? The amount Pitt has received/will receive in ad-hoc, pre-reseat donations, or the amount of season ticket revenue lost when more of the few remaining core fans throw their hands up and say "eff it"?

At the end of the day I know I'll have good seats regardless. But even if I have to move a couple of rows or a couple of seats in from the aisle, it's going to piss me off and not make me feel like the loyal customer that I am.

Further demoralizing a fanbase is demoralized-
Seems counter productive

I don’t have season hoops tickets - because there are just too many games and my kid has enough activities

 

[CrazyPaco]

Isn’t that a good thing ?
That loyal fans feel ownership of their seats ?

Let me ask you this question-
Do you think donation levels for basketball are higher now than prior to the last reseat ?’

Buddy - you’re selling a bad idea.
Kansas , UNC, and Duke aren’t reshuffling their loyal fans regularly - since im
Friends with season ticket holders for all 3.

Kansas is reseating this year: https://kuathletics.com/feature/PSD...c0&aid=16092&pid=kansas_email_eloqua&rid=2898

Duke website says the following: "5. All seats in Cameron are subject to annual evaluation and/or reassignment based on Iron Dukes priority and availability." It is also a $8K donation per pair of tickets for any seat at Cameron and you have to commit to that for 3 years, on top of the price of the season tickets: https://indd.adobe.com/view/7e4b1366-cce5-40bd-bf70-a3cf57c484f3

Pitt is super cheap in comparison.

So no, in my opinion, it is not a good thing if people feel they own their seats. Why would anyone feel they own something? It's not hard at Pitt to keep your seats.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Kansas is reseating this year: https://kuathletics.com/feature/PSD...c0&aid=16092&pid=kansas_email_eloqua&rid=2898

Duke: It is a $4K donation per ticket for any seat at Cameron and you have to commit to that for 3 years: https://indd.adobe.com/view/7e4b1366-cce5-40bd-bf70-a3cf57c484f3

So no, in my opinion, it is not a good thing if people feel they own their seats. Why would anyone feel that way?

Because in pro sports, you do own your seat after paying the one-time seat license.

 

[CrazyPaco]

It's very hard to have re-seating when few people are there to re-seat. After this season, more people will drop their season's tickets.

I'm waiting to see what The Zoo looks like later this year and into next year.

Right, they aren't dropping it because of a reseat. They are dropping because the program is disappointing.

People worried about reseating largely aren't in premium seating. If someone wants to drop 100K for floor seats, great, go get them. Pitt needs that cash. There isn't going to be some glut of big money people looking to come in and scoop up non-premium seats, or even premium seats for that matter. I don't get the angst at all.

The ownership mentality frankly bewilders me. If someone wants to pay more than I am willing for my seats, I'm happy to be moved back. I don't feel that I own jack, or am owed jack, and I've had season tickets every year the Pete has been open and have a varsity letter from the basketball team.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Right, they aren't dropping it because of a reseat. They are dropping because the program is disappointing. People worried about reseating largely aren't in premium seating. There isn't going to be a glut of big money people looking to come in and scoop up non-premium seats.

Exactly. I and my group don't care about the re-seating that much. We do care that this team is and has been disappointing and has not met expectations, and are evaluating based only on that criteria.

TBH, re-seating could give us a new perspective as a spectator at games. We've had the seats we're in for many years now and would love to try somewhere new. But we're waiting until after this plays out to see if we even bother.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Kansas is reseating this year: https://kuathletics.com/feature/PSD...c0&aid=16092&pid=kansas_email_eloqua&rid=2898

Duke website says the following: "5. All seats in Cameron are subject to annual evaluation and/or reassignment based on Iron Dukes priority and availability." It is also a $8K donation per pair of tickets for any seat at Cameron and you have to commit to that for 3 years, on top of the price of the season tickets: https://indd.adobe.com/view/7e4b1366-cce5-40bd-bf70-a3cf57c484f3

Pitt is super cheap in comparison.

So no, in my opinion, it is not a good thing if people feel they own their seats. Why would anyone feel they own something? It's not hard at Pitt to keep your seats.

Kansas has to reseat due to corruption in their ticket office , who was hoarding prime seats and selling them outside of the system
It’s how my friend‘a families seats moved from the top of Allen field house to leimw
Seats.
It’s an amazing place to see a games . Been to several at Cameron too
The $8k donation to the Iron Dukes only gets you one the waiting list for seats
And they are probably obstructed views.
. The dean dome sucks . You have to endow a scholarship to get into the lower row
They actually have demand !

Point is - you didn’t answer - did basketball donations go up or down since the last .reseating ?

Because the place is so empty now , they are allowing students to overflow

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Kansas has to reseat due to corruption in their ticket office , who was hoarding prime seats and selling them outside of the system
It’s how my friend‘a families seats moved from the top of Allen field house to leimw
Seats.
It’s an amazing place to see a games . Been to several at Cameron too
The $8k donation to the Iron Dukes only gets you one the waiting list for seats
And they are probably obstructed views.
. The dean dome sucks . You have to endow a scholarship to get into the lower row
They actually have demand !

Point is - you didn’t answer - did basketball donations go up or down since the last .reseating ?

Because the place is so empty now , they are allowing students to overflow

And I've said this a bunch, they better not require a donation to the antiquated Panther Club. The only way I would even consider renewing is if any mandatory donation I was required to make went DIRECTLY to player salaries. I do not give 2 craps about anything the Panther Club does anymore. I want better players and to get them, you need to pay them more than other places.

 

[AllegeneeGenacGenac]

And it starts and ends with the coach. Capel is a nice guy. Even a charismatic guy. He can recruit pretty well. He has shown an eye for talent. He is just not a very good coach. After seven years, the verdict is in.

I hear you and this is somewhat unfair, but the 2010-2011 season was much more disappointing IMO and that still feels recent to me.

A national championship was a distinct possibility and they flamed out in the end, falling so short in one of the most painful ways imaginable in the tournament. The ceiling on this year's team was maybe the sweet 16 and hope to keep a little momentum going to into next season?

 

[CrazyPaco]

Kansas has to reseat due to corruption in their ticket office , who was hoarding prime seats and selling them outside of the system
It’s how my friend‘a families seats moved from the top of Allen field house to leimw
Seats.
It’s an amazing place to see a games . Been to several at Cameron too
The $8k donation to the Iron Dukes only gets you one the waiting list for seats
And they are probably obstructed views.
. The dean dome sucks . You have to endow a scholarship to get into the lower row
They actually have demand !

Point is - you didn’t answer - did basketball donations go up or down since the last .reseating ?

Because the place is so empty now , they are allowing students to overflow

Seeing as the last reseat was in following the 2019-2020 season, I'd guess that donations have been up for hoops, especially considering the last two seasons which have seen bigger crowds on average and based on the significantly higher resale value that I'm getting for my tickets. They'll fall again after this collapse this season of course, but demand has definitely been higher the last 2, including heading into this season, from everything I can tell.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

This goes back to the blue backs at Fitzgerald. They grandfathered people in that gave almost nothing, or nothing. Forever having rights to certain seats can't be a strategy for determining seating. Especially when you are running giving programs on the premise of tiered benefits and giving rankings. The giving levels have to mean something. Now, I think you could make an argument of the hierarchy of what determines seating, giving level vs priority point rank, but you have to have something.

I have no problem with them saying if you want to sit in these sections you must donate $X per ticket. If you want to sit in these sections you must donate $Y per ticket. And so on. Which, of course, they already do.

That is not what they did last time, and it's not what they are doing now. Someone could have donated $2,000 a year for the last 20 years (hell, 50 years). If someone made a one time donation this year of $2,500, they would get to pick their seats ahead of that person who has been around for the last 20 years. And then just like last time, when things go bad that one time donor will bail on you in a heartbeat. Except as we have seen, and we will see again (on a much smaller scale this time), if you piss off the 20 year guy to cater to the one year guy and the 20 year guy leaves, he's never coming back.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

You want to make an argument to scrap reseating all together, that is fine, but then expect people to think they have ownershp of their seats forever no matter what they give, just like back in the Fitz. That's not how power conference programs operate.

That isn't the way that Pitt does it either. You simply do not have to reseat the building to operate that way. Pitt already requires different levels of donations based on seat location. There is nothing, literally nothing at all, that stops Pitt from changing those numbers from one year to the next. If they increase the required donation for a certain section and someone doesn't want to pay then they have reseated themself. But it's their choice to do that. People respond much better when they are given choices than when they are forced to do something.

And as a matter of fact, this past season, for the first time since the move, Pitt changed the donation on our seats at Accrisure. There is no reason, literally none, that they couldn't do the same thing at the Pete.

 

[CrazyPaco]

I have no problem with them saying if you want to sit in these sections you must donate $X per ticket. If you want to sit in these sections you must donate $Y per ticket. And so on. Which, of course, they already do.

That is not what they did last time, and it's not what they are doing now. Someone could have donated $2,000 a year for the last 20 years (hell, 50 years). If someone made a one time donation this year of $2,500, they would get to pick their seats ahead of that person who has been around for the last 20 years. And then just like last time, when things go bad that one time donor will bail on you in a heartbeat. Except as we have seen, and we will see again (on a much smaller scale this time), if you piss off the 20 year guy to cater to the one year guy and the 20 year guy leaves, he's never coming back.

Yes, if you are right around the cut of the next highest giving preference level, you can get screwed. Basically, the smart way to play it is to give at the bottom threshold of a giving level, not at the top.

A compromise could be to do a two or three year rolling average of annual gifts to determine an individual's giving level. I agree, that would be more fair than just the single year giving level for just the one year of the reseat.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

People worried about reseating largely aren't in premium seating.

If they are doing this like they did the last time, there is a simple reason for that. In the past they exempted premium seating from the process.

And of course the reason for that is because they didn't want to piss off the people in the premium seats, but they really don't care if they piss off the "regular" people.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

You have some mental problems. You have delusional psychosis and associated hallucinations. Get some help immediately. Pitt fans know what we're looking at with this team, and it's not even close to being good.

And yes, we'll need to win every one of our remaining games and possibly even 1 in the ACCT to be on the bubble. At this point, we may not even make the ACCT. There's your dose of reality. Learn from it.

All the people who do this all the time, who know way more about this than you, think that we are on the bubble right now. Some people, for example just today Lunardi and the guy who does it for the Athletic, think we are on the right side of the bubble. Others think we are on the wrong side. But one way or the other, on the bubble.

You, on the other hand, think that we are so far off the bubble that we need to go 9-0 to end the season, which would include road wins over two other bubble teams and a team that at this point is clearly in the field, just to get to the bubble.

You are so far divorced from reality that at this point I have to think that you are just trolling the board, because no one could be this damned stupid.

 

[CrazyPaco]

If they are doing this like they did the last time, there is a simple reason for that. In the past they exempted premium seating from the process.

And of course the reason for that is because they didn't want to piss off the people in the premium seats, but they really don't care if they piss off the "regular" people.

They absolutely resat the Pete's club seats last time, which are considered "premium". And they aren't exempt this time.

And the last time I moved up without any increase in giving, because there wasn't demand. Reseating works both ways. Likely will save more people money for keeping or improving their seats compared to enacting an across the board price increase which would go over like a lead baloon after this season. Pitt is damned no matter what strategy they take. People will bitch regardless.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

They absolutely resat the Pete's club seats last time, which are considered "premium". And they aren't exempt this time.

Well that would be interesting, because their releases on the matter explicitly said that they were not.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Well that would be interesting, because their releases on the matter explicitly said that they were not.

Well, maybe they don't consider center clubs to be the premium ones that are exempt...maybe it is true for VIP floor, suites, or lodges... but the clubs are being resat, just like they were before. Yes, even trustees and former chancellors are not immune.

 

[TD_6082]

Is this Pitt team really that disappointing, or were the pre-season expectations out of kilter?

 

[Protes]

Is this Pitt team really that disappointing, or were the pre-season expectations out of kilter?

It’s easy to sit here now and say that maybe expectations were too high. But for most of us, the expectations were there for this to be an NCAAT team, and one capable of making some noise. I believe the talent is there to be that kind of team but the coaching has been sorely lacking. The only thing I can say personally is I had concerns about our defense coming in, though I never expected our rebounding to be this bad.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

I can't think of many things more stupid than reseating a half empty arena. It's the height of stupidity. Hey, we finally got some folks to start coming back, lets piss on the shoes and tell them it's raining.

And after the performance over the last month, I can't fathom how the new AD hasn't come out and said he's going to scrap this idiotic idea.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

If they increase the required donation for a certain section and someone doesn't want to pay then they have reseated themself. But it's their choice to do that. People respond much better when they are given choices than when they are forced to do something.

This would actually make way too much sense.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Is this Pitt team really that disappointing, or were the pre-season expectations out of kilter?

I think preseason expectations were low
Then they were scoring 90-100 PPG and beat some good teams ooc, and only lost to Wisky and Miss St.
so expectations soared

 

[PittPharm2002]

Yes, if you are right around the cut of the next highest giving preference level, you can get screwed. Basically, the smart way to play it is to give at the bottom threshold of a giving level, not at the top.

A compromise could be to do a two or three year rolling average of annual gifts to determine an individual's giving level. I agree, that would be more fair than just the single year giving level for just the one year of the reseat.

Here’s a better compromise-
Stratify required donation levels further.
Just like football .
Then folks will make requests based on availability to move /

My family moved from section 111 to north club , to east club , to west club - now back to north club next year .
All it took was an email and a phone call with the ticket office - including sitting with a large group of friends .

This kinda crap is why I buy mini plans for hoops at best or simply go third party for seats .

they are creating their own disincentives to give or buy season tickets !

 

[TD_6082]

I think preseason expectations were low
Then they were scoring 90-100 PPG and beat some good teams ooc, and only lost to Wisky and Miss St.
so expectations soared

Maybe so. IMO, it always seems like preseason expectations are high on this particular message board. And it's not something isolated to how the team will perform, but individual players as well.

I just don't see where the OOC results warranted a whole lot of optimism, unless that optimism was largely based on the rest of the league being down. It's really hard to read too much into the non-P5 games, unless a team continually has trouble putting those teams away.

 

[TD_6082]

It’s easy to sit here now and say that maybe expectations were too high. But for most of us, the expectations were there for this to be an NCAAT team, and one capable of making some noise. I believe the talent is there to be that kind of team but the coaching has been sorely lacking. The only thing I can say personally is I had concerns about our defense coming in, though I never expected our rebounding to be this bad.

Well, there's still a month to go and Pitt is firmly on the bubble. They were a bubble team that barely missed the tourney last year with Blake & Bub. Those two did a lot of heavy lifting last year, especially when things were clicking down the stretch. Coming into the year, Pitt was still very much a team with a suspect front court. There were a lot of question marks.

To be truly capable of making a run in the NCAA, I think you need really good PG play, great shooters, and physical bigs that can protect the rim, clean glass, and be at least competent offensively. Solid team defense is non-negotiable.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Maybe so. IMO, it always seems like preseason expectations are high on this particular message board. And it's not something isolated to how the team will perform, but individual players as well.

I just don't see where the OOC results warranted a whole lot of optimism, unless that optimism was largely based on the rest of the league being down. It's really hard to read too much into the non-P5 games, unless a team continually has trouble putting those teams away.

You don’t think destroying WVU, beating , LSU, and winning at Ohio state - and going down to the wire with Wisky was reason for ooc to raise expectations?

In retrospect- getting killed at Miss St should have been a warning sign .

 

[TD_6082]

You don’t think destroying WVU, beating , LSU, and winning at Ohio state - and going down to the wire with Wisky was reason for ooc to raise expectations?

In retrospect- getting killed at Miss St should have been a warning sign .

Perhaps some. The Mississippi State game, followed by the close call at VaTech were a little concerning.

Going into ACC play in January, I thought Pitt was a probable NCAA Tournament team, although I wasn't completely sold on it.

Regardless, they are squarely on the bubble & there are worse places you could be with 10 games to go. That probably aligns with their talent level, imo.