ADVERTISEMENT

Totally OT: Dave Mirra suicide.....

The fact that the NFL is finally addressing the matter - after denying it for so many years - should tell us all that we need to know. They were no better than the tobacco industry who denied responsibility for the physical damage of cigarettes and snuff, until even they could no longer deny the truth.

Self interest is a very powerful motivator. That was the case with the tobacco companies denying any danger from cigarette smoking. Has anyone seen the footage of tobacco company executives testifying before congress saying smoking was totally safe? That was after all sort of studies came out saying smoking was dangerous.

Self interest is what caused the NFL to look the other way for so long and I honestly believe it's why so many football fans refuse to acknowledge the danger of CTE. Everyone on this board loves football, so it's hard to accept that it may be very dangerous to the players.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OriginalEther
Webster was a sad story but he also had a long history of drug abuse and a family history of mental abuse. I think todays athletes benefit a lot from the new rules and equipment. The biggest difference is that they are not allowing players to comeback as soon. For example when I played the rule was headache free. Now they have cognitive tests you must pass.

One study has actually said that soccer may have more impact then football. The paper I read said soccer players suffer multiple mini concussion which has a cumulative effect.
I've watched a lot of youth soccer (and coached it as well), and I know that some of the players who are trying to do headers don't do them correctly. I suspect that it's due to inadequate instruction, but that's a subject for another thread.

I'm not sure what "drug abuse" of Webster's that you're referring to, but if it's steroids and pain pills, I don't know of a study that links either of those med-types to the mental issues that he suffered.
 
One study has actually said that soccer may have more impact then football. The paper I read said soccer players suffer multiple mini concussion which has a cumulative effect.

That's a good point. Researchers say that it's not just full blown concussions that cause problems, but the repeated trauma the brain suffers from getting bounced around when a player is hit. Lineman are particularly at risk. Heading in soccer certainly can't be good for the brain.
 
Last edited:
Self interest is a very powerful motivator. That was the case with the tobacco companies denying any danger from cigarette smoking. Has anyone seen the footage of tobacco company executives testifying before congress saying smoking was totally safe? That was after all sort of studies came out saying smoking was dangerous.
I'm old enough to remember when the tobacco industry paid doctors to do their ads - their message being that smoking was acceptable. Here are two:

http://www.healthcare-administratio...intage-cigarette-ads-promising-better-health/

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: The Sisco Kid
That's a good point. Researchers say that it's not just full blown concussions that cause problems, but the repeated trauma the brain suffers from getting bounced around when a player is hit. Linemen are particularly at risk. Heading in soccer certainly can't be good for the brain.
I don't understand why there hasn't been more of an outcry about MMA. Some of the beating that those guys (and women) take is unbelievable.
 
This is honestly the worst part of anonymous message boards. A bunch of ill informed ignorant opinions all attached to no name aliases. I'm sure you're all good people but some of these comments are ludicrous
true, but in a politically correct world were jobs and livelihoods can be lost because of interpretations of what you say digitally, antinomy is a necessary defense....
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Sisco Kid
I knew Mike Webster personally. He was one of the brightest and most articulate athletes I've ever known, and I've know plenty (thru professional relationships). When I watched him deteriorate from what he'd been to a guy who was delusional, unbearable for his family to live with, literally living in his car, then finally unable to care for himself at all, then something went wrong. When I hear other football players such as Troy Polamalu and others say that they're steering their kids away from football and toward other sports such as soccer, there's a good reason for it.

I was fortunate enough to watch Tony Dorsett for four years here at Pitt; I saw many of the hits that he took - both legal and illegal. And he now he's come out and revealed the mental and emotional problems that he's been having.

The fact that the NFL is finally addressing the matter - after denying it for so many years - should tell us all that we need to know. They were no better than the tobacco industry who denied responsibility for the physical damage of cigarettes and snuff, until even they could no longer deny the truth.

Good personal story, and puts things into perspective much more when you actually knew someone before and after they were diagnosed with CTE!

As someone who loves the sport of football, and enjoys the friday night high school football games....It is concerning when some of the greatest players from the game say that they are, or would be hesitant to let their kids play football, and agree that the lack of participation has a trickle-down effect that doesn't seem to be hurting the game right now, but you can tell that it's starting to have an impact on the number of youngsters who choose to play the sport with Pop Warner participation reportedly down 10% nationwide in just the last few years....Also read that the state of Ohio has seen a dramatic decrease in the numbers of kids who choose to play football today, compared to 10 or so years ago....

I also wonder why there is so little discussion about Soccer players who don't use any headwear, but use their head more frequently than football players do?....Why does there seem to be NO outcry from former players from that sport?.....Is CTE less likely to happen on a Soccer field?

I also wonder about the effects of Pain medication on the brain, since a lot of these former players obviously at times in their careers had to take a lot of pain medication just to make it through the day....Could there be some link to CTE?

I think we all are just hoping for some new revolutionary way of either diminishing the effects of CTE, or eliminating it altogether without eliminating or drastically changing the game of football?...

I think a lot of us remember the days of getting "Blue-lighted" on the field with No thought of not going back into the game after being snapped back into reality with some smelling sauce.....Boy, have times changed, and the game of football with it....

With the threat of future lawsuits, we're heading for a play for pay system for youth football, followed by a disclaimer letter that helps the schools avoid future lawsuits if a kid suffers a concussion....Otherwise as mentioned above, the game will all but disappear down the road, or will be modified for safety reasons to the point that fans become less interested in the sport as a whole, which would be a sad ending to a great sport.....
 
Since when did parents' concerns about their kids getting their brains scrambled turn into a liberal-versus-conservative issue?

I swear that some of you must look under your beds with a flashlight before you go to sleep, just to be sure that there are no "hated liberals" hiding beneath it who might pop-out in the middle of the night and put water filters on all of your faucets. Your way of thinking belongs up in Happy Valley. :rolleyes:

It is not my intention to pit this as a liberal vs conservative political battle. On the contrary.

The reality in America today is school districts are going to get deluged with lawsuits because their son was injured playing football. And, in certain parts of the country the sport simply isn't as popular as it is elsewhere.

It only makes sense that these lawsuits will be a weapon to outlaw the sport in those parts of the country where the friday night lights don't mean as much. Thats all....

I don't think this is far-fetched nor do I think it's in the distant future.....
 
I also wonder why there is so little discussion about Soccer players who don't use any headwear, but use their head more frequently than football players do?....Why does there seem to be NO outcry from former players from that sport?.....Is CTE less likely to happen on a Soccer field?
I

There has been discussion about soccer head injuries. I believe that heading is not allowed for kids 10 and under in youth soccer and not allowed in practice for kids 11-13. Eventually, that will probably be extended. I'd imagine that heading is what causes most damage to the brain while playing soccer.
 
There has been discussion about soccer head injuries. I believe that heading is not allowed for kids 10 and under in youth soccer and not allowed in practice for kids 11-13. Eventually, that will probably be extended. I'd imagine that heading is what causes most damage to the brain while playing soccer.
Yes, I have relatives who are playing youth soccer, and they have a no-header rule in place. Personally, when I was coaching, we started teaching the kids how to do headers with "Nurf" balls, and I've seen other coaches even use balloons to teach proper technique. It would come as no surprise to see headgear being developed for soccer use. But that still won't excuse the players who will still use improper technique.

Even now in the NFL, every game I'll see players lead with their heads when making a tackle - in spite all of the warnings and rules against it. Heck, I played football a long time ago, and even then, our coaches always talked about shoulder tackles. Some people think that the use of the head in tackling became more acceptable (and popular) when helmets got better....talk about irony?
 
Some people think that the use of the head in tackling became more acceptable (and popular) when helmets got better....talk about irony?

Yeah, I remember being coached in high school in the 1970s to essentially lead with the head by guys who had played in the leather helmet days and thus thought the modern hard-shell helmets made you virtually invulnerable to head injuries. We now know otherwise.
 
This is honestly the worst part of anonymous message boards. A bunch of ill informed ignorant opinions all attached to no name aliases. I'm sure you're all good people but some of these comments are ludicrous

You know who loves talking about science? People who are science illiterate. There's no convincing them because they find it hard to believe anything could be more complicated than the jabroni shit they do for a living. Why these people have enough self confidence to offer their opinion on everything is beyond me. Take Facebook for instance: the dumbest people you grew up with, the losers, are the ones always going on rants about how they know more than scientists, physicians, foreign policy experts, economists...you name it, right?

Not all brains are the same.
Some don't form perfectly.
Some do but are damaged from concussion.
CTE is real. We know what those brains look like and how they compare to normal brains of similar pts who avoided trauma. They resemble those from pts diagnosed w/ Alzheimer's.
Liberals like football (lol wtf)
Football will not be banned.

Most people who commit suicide think their family will get over it quickly and be better off without them. They think that because their brain didn't form well or it became damaged, affecting it's perception.
Sometimes it's just an inebriated person who got sad and impulsively pulled the trigger.

Mirra and I had friends in common although I never met him. Sad situation that happens pretty often. It's the 6th leading cause of death in the US I believe.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OriginalEther
Most people who commit suicide think their family will get over it quickly and be better off without them. They think that because their brain didn't form well or it became damaged, affecting it's perception.

One of my best friends committed suicide a few years ago. He suffered from depression. He was successful, incredibly well liked (well over a thousand people came to his visitation) and loved his kids. He was a great father and always there for his kids. He was one of finest people I've ever met. There's no way in the world he would have taken his own life, if he knew how much pain it would cause to his kids, the rest of his family and his friends. I'm sure in his mind, he felt everyone would be better without him. There still aren't many days that go by that I don't think about him and wish I could have helped him in some way. He didn't take his own life because he was selfish, he did it because he suffered from an illness.
 
One of my best friends committed suicide a few years ago. He suffered from depression. He was successful, incredibly well liked (well over a thousand people came to his visitation) and loved his kids. He was a great father and always there for his kids. He was one of finest people I've ever met. There's no way in the world he would have taken his own life, if he knew how much pain it would cause to his kids, the rest of his family and his friends. I'm sure in his mind, he felt everyone would be better without him. There still aren't many days that go by that I don't think about him and wish I could have helped him in some way. He didn't take his own life because he was selfish, he did it because he suffered from an illness.
CP - sorry to hear this. The aftermath of suicide is truly heart breaking, let alone losing someone close to you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rpost3
Suicide is a hell of lot less sad than a kid dying of a cancer... or any normal person dying non volunteeringly
Anyways, CTE is not that case. It is an issue that makes depression and causes such incidents. It is a disease, how can anyone say it isnt? Now... is it ultimately the individuals fault? Yeah... totally is... same reason cigarette smoking killing people before they knew it caused cancer was still their faults. You breath in smoke constantly, common sense says it will hurt you. You play a violent sport, football, boxing, whatever... you know it causes damage. I work with hazardous chemicals... I know this... I know I may die someday from these. When I do, can I be pissed? Sure, but I knew the risk. Its not like the people in Flint Michigan drinking bad water.

People NOW know about this. If parents want to allow their kids to still play football. It is the parents faults. Make it flag football for under 13? How hard is that? People are dumb, that is the bottom line. You dont see 6 year olds doing MMA fighting, why? Because parents know it is archaic and damaging.
 
Suicide is a hell of lot less sad than a kid dying of a cancer... or any normal person dying non volunteeringly
Anyways, CTE is not that case. It is an issue that makes depression and causes such incidents. It is a disease, how can anyone say it isnt? Now... is it ultimately the individuals fault? Yeah... totally is... same reason cigarette smoking killing people before they knew it caused cancer was still their faults. You breath in smoke constantly, common sense says it will hurt you. You play a violent sport, football, boxing, whatever... you know it causes damage. I work with hazardous chemicals... I know this... I know I may die someday from these. When I do, can I be pissed? Sure, but I knew the risk. Its not like the people in Flint Michigan drinking bad water.

People NOW know about this. If parents want to allow their kids to still play football. It is the parents faults. Make it flag football for under 13? How hard is that? People are dumb, that is the bottom line. You dont see 6 year olds doing MMA fighting, why? Because parents know it is archaic and damaging.
With all due respect that is patently untrue.
 
Suicide is a hell of lot less sad than a kid dying of a cancer... or any normal person dying non volunteeringly

The thing is mental illness isn't different than any other type of disease. I'm in my 50's and I can tell you that my friend's suicide is the saddest thing I've ever experienced and I'll never totally be over it. I can't even imagine how it is for his wife and kids. As an aside, to try to make something positive out of it, I try to be a better person, a better friend, a better dad and a better husband each and every day to honor his memory. Those are things we should always do, but something like that happening reminds you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rpost3
In addition that most tend to leave out is the drug abuse, illegal and illegal, that was or is still rampant in the NFL that has to have an affect on the brain. Even legal supplements when taken on a regular basis could have an affect on the body over time. Injecting yourself with cortisone and anti-flammatory steroids over a 14 year career can not be good for the body. If you have a sore shoulder, the body is telling you it needs rest for it to heal, not suit up and play four quarters! But the lure of money is to great for some.
Everybody's body is different and the limit that my body can handle might be different than what someone else's can handle. I believe CTE is real, but is there more to it than getting your head rung a few times. Not everybody who plays football is diagnosed with it. It's like smoking...some can smoke a pack a day for 50 years and it won't affect them, others not so lucky.
Gulf War syndrome is a clinically diagnosed illness that is compensated by the Veterans Affair, yet there is not an exact known cause. All they know is there are claims of illnesses that they say are related to the conflict. Exposure to chemical weapons, unapproved anthrax vaccine, anti-nerve gas pills that were forced fed down our throats, uranium depleted shells, oil well fires are all suspected causes or possibly a combination of all them. I was exposed to all of the above and at the present time, I am in good health. I constantly get letters from the VA asking me to come and get checked out. I refuse to go...because next thing you know, they will have me believing something is wrong with me. I don't doubt that some people do have legitimate health problems from serving, but sometimes, not always, part of the problem is in the hysteria created.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rpost3
With all due respect that is patently untrue.

Well, of course it is true to me. I went through it. You cant say something is patently untrue when it is based on an individual feeling. I also had a friend whos son committed suicide at age 18. It is downright sad both cases, but one does it to himself of course it is less sad and more outrage of a life wasted.
 
The thing is mental illness isn't different than any other type of disease. I'm in my 50's and I can tell you that my friend's suicide is the saddest thing I've ever experienced and I'll never totally be over it. I can't even imagine how it is for his wife and kids. As an aside, to try to make something positive out of it, I try to be a better person, a better friend, a better dad and a better husband each and every day to honor his memory. Those are things we should always do, but something like that happening reminds you.

I am sorry for your loss. Glad you pull something positive out of a negative. That IS the best way to carry on and learn from your friend.
 
This is honestly the worst part of anonymous message boards. A bunch of ill informed ignorant opinions all attached to no name aliases. I'm sure you're all good people but some of these comments are ludicrous

What the **** is your problem? People are just trying to understand and make sense of this. Who the hell are you to condemn people for doing this? **** you. Asshole.
 
I knew Mike Webster personally. He was one of the brightest and most articulate athletes I've ever known, and I've know plenty (thru professional relationships). When I watched him deteriorate from what he'd been to a guy who was delusional, unbearable for his family to live with, literally living in his car, then finally unable to care for himself at all, then something went wrong. When I hear other football players such as Troy Polamalu and others say that they're steering their kids away from football and toward other sports such as soccer, there's a good reason for it.

I was fortunate enough to watch Tony Dorsett for four years here at Pitt; I saw many of the hits that he took - both legal and illegal. And he now he's come out and revealed the mental and emotional problems that he's been having.

The fact that the NFL is finally addressing the matter - after denying it for so many years - should tell us all that we need to know. They were no better than the tobacco industry who denied responsibility for the physical damage of cigarettes and snuff, until even they could no longer deny the truth.

Webster is a perfect example of some of the follies of football. While the NFL is trying to cut out the big highlight reel hits, and yes, they may lead to concussion, but you look at Webster, Dave Duerson, Junior Seau, even Tony Dorsett, it was the sport, the every play, especially linemen and linebackers where the repetitive and cumulative damage is done.

Honestly, if it is that bad, then ban the sport. I don't know how you avoid it. I do know this, people die of something. No one lives for ever. And there are a lot of professions that take their tolls on people as they age. Even something as trite as computers and eyesite deterioration. Or the stress of management and over work for heart disease. There are consequences. Chemicals. conditions, running roofing materials up a ladder for 20 years, crawling around in mines, daily stress of management decisions, it all takes tolls and different tolls. Not many allows people to accumulate a lifetime of wealth in a few short years.

I guess I am saying, I am tired of hearing about how tragic a lot of these football players are. AND....how many truly would trade the millions and lifestyles they have had for being an everyday joe.
 
True, but as flawed as the sample may be, 87 out of 91 former NFL players who donated their brains to science after death tested positive for CTE.
good stat...but I have to ask if they were donated because the families thought they were exhibiting Symptoms prior to death? If some were donated and were not exhibiting symptoms, that might say a lot. The giffords claim Frank had...he died when he was 84. It wasn't all that long ago he still announced games.
 
Well, of course it is true to me. I went through it. You cant say something is patently untrue when it is based on an individual feeling. I also had a friend whos son committed suicide at age 18. It is downright sad both cases, but one does it to himself of course it is less sad and more outrage of a life wasted.
Well, I personally have never compared the sadness of death between those I have lost close to me. So, to each his own.
 
Well, I personally have never compared the sadness of death between those I have lost close to me. So, to each his own.

Well, I think most do. If your 95 year old grandmother dies, I think it is less sad than a 6 year old daughter. I mean, stick to your guns if you think that is important and youre overly proud like that, but I think it is fairly silly to say comparing sadness of death doesnt happen. I mean those that died innocently in the planes on 911 those deaths are more sad than the terrorist that committed suicide crashing the planes. I guess if you cant see that "to each his own". Be thankful you havent had a child die I guess.
 
[QUOTE=

I guess I am saying, I am tired of hearing about how tragic a lot of these football players are. AND....how many truly would trade the millions and lifestyles they have had for being an everyday joe.[/QUOTE

Agreed...as insensitive as it may be, but Troy Palomalu wasn't trashing football when he was getting that paycheck.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Sisco Kid
Well, I think most do. If your 95 year old grandmother dies, I think it is less sad than a 6 year old daughter. I mean, stick to your guns if you think that is important and youre overly proud like that, but I think it is fairly silly to say comparing sadness of death doesnt happen. I mean those that died innocently in the planes on 911 those deaths are more sad than the terrorist that committed suicide crashing the planes. I guess if you cant see that "to each his own". Be thankful you havent had a child die I guess.
Hey - have at it. I can't believe we're even debating how sad someone dying in a terrorist attack is compared to an elderly grandmother. And I am eternally grateful I haven't had a child die.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HunkyPanther
What the **** is your problem? People are just trying to understand and make sense of this. Who the hell are you to condemn people for doing this? **** you. Asshole.


Case in point. You called a guy "selfish". That isn't you trying to make sense of anything. In this thread you have Said that and other people have questioned whether cte is a real thing. That's uniformed and silly. I'm not condemning anyone for trying to understand anything that is not what has happened here at all. And chill it with name calling and tough guy routine.

I like you think you make a lot of good points. I didnt say anything to you to be talked to like that.
 

Just like young adults smoking or drinking and driving or experimenting with drugs. You feel invincible when you're young not so much as you get older. Mortality becomes real.
 
Last edited:
Hey - have at it. I can't believe we're even debating how sad someone dying in a terrorist attack is compared to an elderly grandmother. And I am eternally grateful I haven't had a child die.

Doubt you read the message, he didn't compare that at all. I certain agree with his point. The terrorist themselves certainly wouldn't be mourned, agreed.

Both are sad of course, one isn't preventable
 
The difference between suicide and something like cancer is that suicide leaves people behind wondering if they could have done something to have prevented it. There is an extra step in the grieving process which is blaming yourself. I can only compare it to losing your parents. If they walk out on you, you are left wondering what you may have done to make them leave. If they die, you are not left blaming yourself.

Well, I personally have never compared the sadness of death between those I have lost close to me. So, to each his own.
 
Last edited:
Wow! Nothing could be further from the truth. ANY time a kid dies of suicide OR cancer or any disease is EQUALLY sad.

Suicide is a hell of lot less sad than a kid dying of a cancer... or any normal person dying non volunteeringly
Anyways, CTE is not that case. It is an issue that makes depression and causes such incidents. It is a disease, how can anyone say it isnt? Now... is it ultimately the individuals fault? Yeah... totally is... same reason cigarette smoking killing people before they knew it caused cancer was still their faults. You breath in smoke constantly, common sense says it will hurt you. You play a violent sport, football, boxing, whatever... you know it causes damage. I work with hazardous chemicals... I know this... I know I may die someday from these. When I do, can I be pissed? Sure, but I knew the risk. Its not like the people in Flint Michigan drinking bad water.

People NOW know about this. If parents want to allow their kids to still play football. It is the parents faults. Make it flag football for under 13? How hard is that? People are dumb, that is the bottom line. You dont see 6 year olds doing MMA fighting, why? Because parents know it is archaic and damaging.
 
Wow! Nothing could be further from the truth. ANY time a kid dies of suicide OR cancer or any disease is EQUALLY sad.

The question was suicide in general. Obviously a kid dying of suicide is sad. Robin Williams suicide less sad than a kid dying of cancer

How is that even a question? Someone choosing their own death is not as bad as someone's life being taken away
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Sisco Kid
Doubt you read the message, he didn't compare that at all. I certain agree with his point. The terrorist themselves certainly wouldn't be mourned, agreed.

Both are sad of course, one isn't preventable
I did read the message and yes he was explaining his argument on degrees of sadness re: death. His original statement was someone committing suicide is less sad than a child dying from cancer. I totally disagree with that and yes, I can't believe we're even having a discussion on how sad death "should" be in certain situations.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT