What happened to 2 back sets?

[rpost3]

Two back sets where both guys get carries -- Tom Rathman/Roger Craig, Icky Woods/James Brooks, Kevin Mack/Earnest Byner, Walter Payton/Matt Suhey -- went out of favor for a few reasons. Passing became easier b/c of rule changes and quarterbacks and QB coaching got better. My question is, when you're short on wide receiver talent and long on running back talent, why would these offenses not be an option? I don't think I've seen teams use these running plays since the mid 1990's (Packers and 49ers).

Seems the misdirections and traps that stem from not knowing which running back is getting the ball out of formations like split backfields, east/west backfields, veer, etc would work well in Pitt's favor considering the depth at RB, especially viewed in the context of how little talent there is at WR. But no teams run these running plays or even use those formations anymore regardless of how piss poor their passing game is or how deep their talent at RB even though teams now use 2 or 3 running backs, and I'm curious why. Any theories?

 

[pittdan77]

Defenses have too much speed now to let that many defenders stay so close to the line of scrimmage. Safety's play the run much more aggressively. Game just isn't played that way any more.

 

[rpost3]

Defenses have too much speed now to let that many defenders stay so close to the line of scrimmage. Safety's play the run much more aggressively. Game just isn't played that way any more.

I knew the first answer would be "defenses have too much speed." It always is. It's what people said about running the spread-option in the SEC. And in the NFL.

"Defenses have too much speed now to let that many defenders stay close to the line of scrimmage."
Not sure I'm reading that right. Can you reword it?

 

[rpost3]

I'm watching old clips and not seeing why the speed of the defense would prevent offenses from using 2 running backs at the same time. Just saw a play that looked like it was going to be a handoff to Roger Craig but it was a misdirection to Rathman who took off up the middle for big yardage. But then Rathman was blocking on the next play, and a light went off.

These running backs, technically fullbacks, are run blocking a lot. I'm wondering if current teams don't run these plays anymore b/c being an all around back like that is kind of a lost art. Maybe guys who carry the ball don't feel like run blocking? I dunno. They pass block, so why not run block...

Watching Payton on a sweep is something. He'd hold the ball like he was going to pass it every time, which kept the secondary from running up to support the run. Never saw anything like that from another back.

BTW, it's scary how much Conner resembles Franco Harris as a runner. Franco is faster and Conner is more physical at the point of impact but they're very similar off the handoff and in the open field.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

^^^ I have yet to see JC run out of bounds to avoid a hit! The stiff arm looks similar!

 

[pittdan77]

Why did you ask if you already knew?

In all seriousness though, a guy like Craig played at 6', 220 and was considered "big" as a blocking back. Mike Singletary is the kind of All-Pro that Craig would be blocking. He's 6', 230.

Today, you can't play corner at that size. But these guys can move now. Luke Kuechly for Carolina was All-Pro in 2015. He's playing at 6'3, 240 but runs a 4.58 as a middle linebacker. JJ Watt (also an All-Pro that season), is 6'5", 289 and ran a 4.84 forty playing defensive end. Now imagine Doug Martin, who was also an All-Pro that year and is 5'9", 223 and runs a 4.46, trying to block either of those guys. Easier to run past them or try to get a one on one matchup in short coverage.

 

[steel_curtain]

I knew the first answer would be "defenses have too much speed." It always is. It's what people said about running the spread-option in the SEC. And in the NFL.

"Defenses have too much speed now to let that many defenders stay close to the line of scrimmage."
Not sure I'm reading that right. Can you reword it?

-If Tom Osborne still Coached, you would still be seeing Power I and Wing formations. You can talk about speed all you like, but no one in todays game would have stopped 1995 Nebraska. This was a team that was scoring 60 points in the first half of games with all power running with the tripple sets. Clemson would have got annihilated by this team.

-Its a lot easier for teams in college to win with a spread then it is this formation, because you need the right players to run it, including a Power O-Line. With the right players, it would be very, very, difficult to stop unless you had Elite talent stacked across the D-line in waves. 1995 Nebraska against a few of the Saban teams at Alabama would have been interesting.

 

[srpst23]

Yeah, but you are talking about the pros, not college. I don't see any reason why you couldn't run a two back system in college. The overall speed/strength is much lower.

 

[steel_curtain]

Yeah, but you are talking about the pros, not college. I don't see any reason why you couldn't run a two back system in college. The overall speed/strength is much lower.

-Matt Canada ran a power run scheme at Wisconsin with different full back sets. A lot of what they used only had 2 WR's on the field the entire time because no one could stop Wisconsin's run game. They also used tripple RB and FB sets with only 1 WR on the field. They won the Big Ten Title 70-31 killing teams with the run game and a power run game. They had the o-line to do it and simply plow teams. No one could stop it and teams were jamming the line of scrimmage with 9 players on defense to try and stop it. They flat out couldnt.

-I firmly believe Pitt is going to do the same thing with James Conner and this O-line. We are going to plow teams with the run game this year and stack the line of scrimmage on offense. I firmly expect it to happen.

-This is where people are wrong. When you have the ability to freight train a defense with a power run game, you dont need WR's except to watch the run game and block.

 

[rpost3]

Why did you ask if you already knew?

In all seriousness though, a guy like Craig played at 6', 220 and was considered "big" as a blocking back. Mike Singletary is the kind of All-Pro that Craig would be blocking. He's 6', 230.

Today, you can't play corner at that size. But these guys can move now. Luke Kuechly for Carolina was All-Pro in 2015. He's playing at 6'3, 240 but runs a 4.58 as a middle linebacker. JJ Watt (also an All-Pro that season), is 6'5", 289 and ran a 4.84 forty playing defensive end. Now imagine Doug Martin, who was also an All-Pro that year and is 5'9", 223 and runs a 4.46, trying to block either of those guys. Easier to run past them or try to get a one on one matchup in short coverage.

I don't already know the answer. I just don't think your answer is right either.

re: Doug Martin vs JJ Watt...
A tailback run blocking the best DE in the game sounds pretty dumb in any era. Something tells me 180 lb James Brooks wasn't sent out to run block 300 lb elite DE's like Richard Dent and Reggie White, but teams still had 2 backs who could get the ball on the field at the same time back then.

Also, the tailbacks seemed to very rarely run block anyway. I saw early clips of Craig run blocking from fullback for the 49ers, but when he moved to tailback later on when they got Rathman for fullback, his role was taking the handoff, receiving, and acting as a decoy on misdirection runs for FB Rathman.

Not to mention this is college ball. I do not think Conner or Ollison would be physically outmatched trying to run block these ACC linebackers. They're bigger and faster than most of them.

 

[steel_curtain]

I don't already know the answer. I just don't think your answer is right either.

re: Doug Martin vs JJ Watt...
A tailback run blocking the best DE in the game sounds pretty dumb in any era. Something tells me 180 lb James Brooks wasn't sent out to run block 300 lb elite DE's like Richard Dent and Reggie White, but teams still had 2 backs who could get the ball on the field at the same time back then.

Also, the tailbacks seemed to very rarely run block anyway. I saw early clips of Craig run blocking from fullback for the 49ers, but when he moved to tailback later on when they got Rathman for fullback, his role was taking the handoff, receiving, and acting as a decoy on misdirection runs for FB Rathman.

Not to mention this is college ball. I do not think Conner or Ollison would be physically outmatched trying to run block these ACC linebackers. They're bigger and faster than most of them.

-It can be done with the right talent, even in the NFL. The bucs won the superbowl with Michael Pittman and Mike Alstott at the RB and FB positions with a power run game. They did have Keyshawn Johnson at WR, however.

 

[rpost3]

-Matt Canada ran a power run scheme at Wisconsin with different full back sets. A lot of what they used only had 2 WR's on the field the entire time because no one could stop Wisconsin's run game. They also used tripple RB and FB sets with only 1 WR on the field. They won the Big Ten Title 70-31 killing teams with the run game and a power run game. They had the o-line to do it and simply plow teams. No one could stop it and teams were jamming the line of scrimmage with 9 players on defense to try and stop it. They flat out couldnt.

-I firmly believe Pitt is going to do the same thing with James Conner and this O-line. We are going to plow teams with the run game this year and stack the line of scrimmage on offense. I firmly expect it to happen.

-This is where people are wrong. When you have the ability to freight train a defense with a power run game, you dont need WR's except to watch the run game and block.

I like to think you're right, but I suspect the offense might get a tad predictable.

James Conner or Ollison line up behind big-ass Raymar Parrish.
Might as well sell out on that b/c it's not like the WR's or TE's are a threat. Lets face it - the running backs are the only threats on the whole offense.

That's why I wonder why they can't incorporate some plays that use two running back threats on the field at the same time. hard to key on just one when the possibility of a misdirection run by the other is always there. Maybe the running game is a lot harder to stop when Ollison and Conner are both out there. Or maybe both suck at run blocking and it wouldn't work. Who knows.

 

[steel_curtain]

I like to think you're right, but I suspect the offense might get a tad predictable.

James Conner or Ollison line up behind big-ass Raymar Parrish.
Might as well sell out on that b/c it's not like the WR's or TE's are a threat. Lets face it - the running backs are the only threats on the whole offense.

That's why I wonder why they can't incorporate some plays that use two running back threats on the field at the same time. hard to key on just one when the possibility of a misdirection run by the other is always there. Maybe the running game is a lot harder to stop when Ollison and Conner are both out there. Or maybe both suck at run blocking and it wouldn't work. Who knows.

-In 2012 Wisconsins Top WR had 800 yards and 5TDs Their number 2 WR had 300 yards. Those numbers are for the entire season including bowl game. Their Top WR had 49 catches, for the entire season. They had no pass game, none. Joel Stave, their starting QB, had 6 Pass TD's for the entire season.

-Ill wager Ford puts up Close to 800 yards and 49 catches for the season. Finally, we are going to throw him the ball. I happen to think he's fairly good too.

 

[rpost3]

-It can be done with the right talent, even in the NFL. The bucs won the superbowl with Michael Pittman and Mike Alstott at the RB and FB positions with a power run game. They did have Keyshawn Johnson at WR, however.

I thought that too initially. Seems Allstot played lead blocker at FB for Pittman (and Warrick Dunn), but when he'd carry the ball he was in a 1 back set.

 

[rpost3]

-In 2012 Wisconsins Top WR had 800 yards and 5TDs Their number 2 WR had 300 yards. Those numbers are for the entire season including bowl game. Their Top WR had 49 catches, for the entire season. They had no pass game, none. Joel Stave, their starting QB, had 6 Pass TD's for the entire season.

Pretty encouraging to know that actually.

 

[Piranha]

^^^ I have yet to see JC run out of bounds to avoid a hit! The stiff arm looks similar!

LOL - I was thinking the same thing. JC is a bull who does not shy away from contact.

 

[steel_curtain]

Pretty encouraging to know that actually.

-Canada's offense against #2 Clemson last year. Scored 41 points against Clemson last year. Our OC Canada is the real deal, not that clown Chaney.

 

[PSU_Nut]

-In 2012 Wisconsins Top WR had 800 yards and 5TDs Their number 2 WR had 300 yards. Those numbers are for the entire season including bowl game. Their Top WR had 49 catches, for the entire season. They had no pass game, none. Joel Stave, their starting QB, had 6 Pass TD's for the entire season.

-Ill wager Ford puts up Close to 800 yards and 49 catches for the season. Finally, we are going to throw him the ball. I happen to think he's fairly good too.

They also went 8-6 that year and backed their way into the B1G championship game because both Penn State and Ohio State were ineligible. They were 7-5 and 4-4 in conference finishing third in the division. I would think you would inspire for better results than that. They didn't do a ton of two back sets. They did run a ton of 2 TE and one back set.