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What transfers have really hurt the program by leaving?

JS School

Junior
Aug 17, 2011
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There have been a lot of negative comments about the number of transfers the last few years, but other than Birch they mostly seem to be guys pretty much seeing the handwriting on the wall. The loss of Newkirk will hurt mostly if Wilson is not eligible and either Robinson or Smith suffer an injury. I'm not sure if Newkirk would have played much this year because of his injury anyhow, and the injury may have robbed him of his main asset, his quickness. It would have been nice to have Durand, but there was not a lot of room at SF with Artis moving there and Jones and Cam Johnson being also able to play SG. I don't think that Durand could handle the ball well enough to play SG and other than being able to go on hot shooting streaks I don't think he would have provided much beyond what the other two can do other than being more athletic. Cam in particular may prove to be a better overall shooter. Besides, it's hard to miss someone who really hasn't played in two years. It's also possible that the decision to transfer was made for Durand.

JJ Moore leaving was understandable because of his family situation and because he was clearly surpassed by Patterson. John Johnson, Gilbert, Epps, Uchebo, Haughton? Am I missing anyone? To me, it seems this narrative about the transfers started with Birch and the critics continue carrying on about it despite the other transfers being reasonable and understandable.
 
It's only notable because of how few transfers there were for the years prior. Dixon made a habit of redshirting players and improving guys over 4-5 seasons. If you aren't redshirting players who deserve very few minutes, then they're basically just wasting their eligibility, and some choose to find another place to use it.

There have always been calls by fans to stop redshirting so many, and to chase better recruits. Both of those objectives result in players transferring.

I still feel like John Johnson could've been coached up, but other than him, Birch is about the only transfer of impact. Newkirk may hurt from a depth perspective, but he didn't display anything last year that foreshadowed future star status.
 
There have been a lot of negative comments about the number of transfers the last few years, but other than Birch they mostly seem to be guys pretty much seeing the handwriting on the wall. The loss of Newkirk will hurt mostly if Wilson is not eligible and either Robinson or Smith suffer an injury. I'm not sure if Newkirk would have played much this year because of his injury anyhow, and the injury may have robbed him of his main asset, his quickness. It would have been nice to have Durand, but there was not a lot of room at SF with Artis moving there and Jones and Cam Johnson being also able to play SG. I don't think that Durand could handle the ball well enough to play SG and other than being able to go on hot shooting streaks I don't think he would have provided much beyond what the other two can do other than being more athletic. Cam in particular may prove to be a better overall shooter. Besides, it's hard to miss someone who really hasn't played in two years. It's also possible that the decision to transfer was made for Durand.

JJ Moore leaving was understandable because of his family situation and because he was clearly surpassed by Patterson. John Johnson, Gilbert, Epps, Uchebo, Haughton? Am I missing anyone? To me, it seems this narrative about the transfers started with Birch and the critics continue carrying on about it despite the other transfers being reasonable and understandable.
I think the bigger question to me is why we keep getting these guards who don't pan out and get over-recruited in the first place. That shows in the lack of continuity in the program. We need to get better guards who stay 4 years and don't get recruited over. Not even 5* guys, just guys who can play.
 
There have been a lot of negative comments about the number of transfers the last few years, but other than Birch they mostly seem to be guys pretty much seeing the handwriting on the wall. The loss of Newkirk will hurt mostly if Wilson is not eligible and either Robinson or Smith suffer an injury. I'm not sure if Newkirk would have played much this year because of his injury anyhow, and the injury may have robbed him of his main asset, his quickness. It would have been nice to have Durand, but there was not a lot of room at SF with Artis moving there and Jones and Cam Johnson being also able to play SG. I don't think that Durand could handle the ball well enough to play SG and other than being able to go on hot shooting streaks I don't think he would have provided much beyond what the other two can do other than being more athletic. Cam in particular may prove to be a better overall shooter. Besides, it's hard to miss someone who really hasn't played in two years. It's also possible that the decision to transfer was made for Durand.

JJ Moore leaving was understandable because of his family situation and because he was clearly surpassed by Patterson. John Johnson, Gilbert, Epps, Uchebo, Haughton? Am I missing anyone? To me, it seems this narrative about the transfers started with Birch and the critics continue carrying on about it despite the other transfers being reasonable and understandable.

Its not that these players have hurt the program by leaving. Its more that they hurt the program by being offered scholarships and then accepting those scholarships. The transfer that hurt the worst was Birch. The only other guys who even were "rotation guys" were DJ and JJ and neither loss was crushing.

Most of these transfers were mutual decisions because they weren't good enough to play here. Its the same tale over and over again. Recruiting hasn't been good. We're buying lottery tickets that we keep missing on.
 
The contention in the original post is that next to none of the multitude of transfers that we've had in the program in recent years haven't really hurt the program other than maybe Birch. I don't necessarily disagree with that contention. Unfortunately, if true, all that does is highlight how badly we have mis-fired with our recruiting in recent years. We can only hope that the ship gets righted at some point.
 
The contention in the original post is that next to none of the multitude of transfers that we've had in the program in recent years haven't really hurt the program other than maybe Birch. I don't necessarily disagree with that contention. Unfortunately, if true, all that does is highlight how badly we have mis-fired with our recruiting in recent years. We can only hope that the ship gets righted at some point.

Right, it isn't the root, it's a symptom.
 
Birch is the most damaging.

Maybe Durand if he'd have kept his head straight.

The rest, frankly,..didn't hurt a bit. Maybe JJ Richardson because of other defections who could be productive if not good.
 
I agree with these responses. The transfers are generally the result of recruiting misses, not disgruntled key players jumping ship as some people try to portray. Birch would be the only one to fit that category.
 
It's only notable because of how few transfers there were for the years prior. Dixon made a habit of redshirting players and improving guys over 4-5 seasons. If you aren't redshirting players who deserve very few minutes, then they're basically just wasting their eligibility, and some choose to find another place to use it.

There have always been calls by fans to stop redshirting so many, and to chase better recruits. Both of those objectives result in players transferring.

I still feel like John Johnson could've been coached up, but other than him, Birch is about the only transfer of impact. Newkirk may hurt from a depth perspective, but he didn't display anything last year that foreshadowed future star status.

Well, numerically, there wasn't a great difference in the early years and the recent years. In the modern era, going back to Howland, there were 10 departures from guys who were signed between Howland's first year and the 2008 class and 14 since.

Seabrooks, Derrick Worrell, Zelimar Stevanovich, Ed Turner, Dante Milligan, Walter Waters, Yuri Demetris, Darnell Dodson, Austin Wallace and Cassin Diggs. Several were kicked off the team, a couple had eligibility issues and never really got here and Austin Wallace was injured. Then there were a couple who just couldn't play at this level.

Across college basketball, the number of kids moving on is increasing almost every year. We're pretty much within the statistical averages, then and now. We might have a few more than some schools moving on, but we also have more than usual redshirting and staying 5 years.
 
Well, numerically, there wasn't a great difference in the early years and the recent years. In the modern era, going back to Howland, there were 10 departures from guys who were signed between Howland's first year and the 2008 class and 14 since.

Seabrooks, Derrick Worrell, Zelimar Stevanovich, Ed Turner, Dante Milligan, Walter Waters, Yuri Demetris, Darnell Dodson, Austin Wallace and Cassin Diggs. Several were kicked off the team, a couple had eligibility issues and never really got here and Austin Wallace was injured. Then there were a couple who just couldn't play at this level.

Across college basketball, the number of kids moving on is increasing almost every year. We're pretty much within the statistical averages, then and now. We might have a few more than some schools moving on, but we also have more than usual redshirting and staying 5 years.

You forgot Tony Tate. ;)
 
I don't think individually, most of the transfers "hurt". As mentioned Birch was a loss. Durand probably was a loss. But the voids left by guys you used a scholarship and could have spent on someone else.

What I do think is it used to be that guys had no problem sticking around 4 and 5 years, waiting their turns, developing, working hard. Now, as probably is reflective of today's society, doesn't seem like many kids (basketball) are willing to do that. Without sounding like and old guy reminiscing about the "good old days", we are talking this happening within a decade. So.........what has changed?
 
I agree with these responses. The transfers are generally the result of recruiting misses, not disgruntled key players jumping ship as some people try to portray. Birch would be the only one to fit that category.

Well said. I could have posted a much more economical use of words by describing most transfers as "recruiting misses".
 
Well, numerically, there wasn't a great difference in the early years and the recent years. In the modern era, going back to Howland, there were 10 departures from guys who were signed between Howland's first year and the 2008 class and 14 since.

Seabrooks, Derrick Worrell, Zelimar Stevanovich, Ed Turner, Dante Milligan, Walter Waters, Yuri Demetris, Darnell Dodson, Austin Wallace and Cassin Diggs. Several were kicked off the team, a couple had eligibility issues and never really got here and Austin Wallace was injured. Then there were a couple who just couldn't play at this level.

Across college basketball, the number of kids moving on is increasing almost every year. We're pretty much within the statistical averages, then and now. We might have a few more than some schools moving on, but we also have more than usual redshirting and staying 5 years.

Also, not trying to be silly, but I can't remember if Walter Waters ever really "got here." And I'm not exactly sure what category Dodson falls into.

FWIW, I think you should also include Trevor Ferguson who actually did make to school for a couple of days, correct?

Regardless, we are indeed pretty much within the statistical averages. Especially considering that we recruited OVER the 13 scholarship limit for 2 of the recent years, and AT the 13 scholarship level for some of the others.
 
Also, not trying to be silly, but I can't remember if Walter Waters ever really "got here." And I'm not exactly sure what category Dodson falls into.

FWIW, I think you should also include Trevor Ferguson who actually did make to school for a couple of days, correct?

Regardless, we are indeed pretty much within the statistical averages. Especially considering that we recruited OVER the 13 scholarship limit for 2 of the recent years, and AT the 13 scholarship level for some of the others.
Forgot about "Sunshine" Ferguson. I was using signed letters of intent. Waters had signed but if I remember correctly, looked like he wouldn't be admitted. We had also "recruited over" him, with two centers. We offered him a release and he signed at Cleveland State. I'm pretty sure he was admitted there but flunked out. Maybe we wouldn't have done it if Antonio Graves hasn't gotten passing SAT scores.

At one point, kids couldn't start their scholarship until just before school started. Sometime after Ferguson but before Dodson, that changed. I think Ferguson was on campus but not yet on scholarship, during the Summer and the culture shock from a rural Florida Christian school to Oakland was too much for him. He asked for and was given his release. He went back to prep school, signed with NC State and had a limited career.

Dodson was on scholarshop and on campus. He played at Greentree a few games. But, he didn't pass the Clearinghouse and the Big East had an obscure rule that if he actually took scholarship money before he was eligible, he could NEVER play for that school again. He went to a juco, then Cal signed him at Memphis. His career was also fairly undistinguished.

I could have added Jaylen Bond too, to the more current kids, but he decommitted fairly early, so I omited him.
 
Forgot about "Sunshine" Ferguson. I was using signed letters of intent. Waters had signed but if I remember correctly, looked like he wouldn't be admitted. We had also "recruited over" him, with two centers. We offered him a release and he signed at Cleveland State. I'm pretty sure he was admitted there but flunked out. Maybe we wouldn't have done it if Antonio Graves hasn't gotten passing SAT scores.

At one point, kids couldn't start their scholarship until just before school started. Sometime after Ferguson but before Dodson, that changed. I think Ferguson was on campus but not yet on scholarship, during the Summer and the culture shock from a rural Florida Christian school to Oakland was too much for him. He asked for and was given his release. He went back to prep school, signed with NC State and had a limited career.

Dodson was on scholarshop and on campus. He played at Greentree a few games. But, he didn't pass the Clearinghouse and the Big East had an obscure rule that if he actually took scholarship money before he was eligible, he could NEVER play for that school again. He went to a juco, then Cal signed him at Memphis. His career was also fairly undistinguished.

I could have added Jaylen Bond too, to the more current kids, but he decommitted fairly early, so I omited him.

That's my memory about Waters too.
 
Was the Dodson thing really an obscure BE rule or was it an NCAA rule? If so, are we in jeopardy of the same problem our not yet cleared guard, Damon Wilson?

The Jaylen Bond thing was part of the Birch fiasco if I remember correctly. When Birch decided to come Bond was pushed out, or left on his own in response to make room on the roster for Birch.
 
Also, not trying to be silly, but I can't remember if Walter Waters ever really "got here." And I'm not exactly sure what category Dodson falls into.

FWIW, I think you should also include Trevor Ferguson who actually did make to school for a couple of days, correct?

Regardless, we are indeed pretty much within the statistical averages. Especially considering that we recruited OVER the 13 scholarship limit for 2 of the recent years, and AT the 13 scholarship level for some of the others.
Being close to the statistical average doesn't, however, tell the whole story. You can overcome transfers with otherwise solid recruiting. Pitt doesn't recruit well enough to overcome the attrition rate so the attrition, at least from a depth perspective, hurts more. There's also the opportunity cost of recruiting and investing time in players who don't ever make a contribution.
 
Trying to figure out what 17 y/o kids do moving up to the next level is a crapshoot unless your taking the elite can't miss guys. Birch really came here with very limited offensive abilities athletic yes ,but no short range jumper. Pitt isn't getting the elite guys . Look at the baseball or hockey drafts , high school kids take years to develope if at all. When does a kid peak?
Ps. If you want to play ball and it's not working out move on it's the smart thing to do if you want pt
 
Seabrooks, Derrick Worrell, Zelimar Stevanovich, Ed Turner, Dante Milligan, Walter Waters, Yuri Demetris, Darnell Dodson, Austin Wallace and Cassin Diggs. Several were kicked off the team, a couple had eligibility issues and never really got here and Austin Wallace was injured. Then there were a couple who just couldn't play at this level.

I'm not as well versed in the Howland guys, but for Dixon, you are skewing this. Milligan left for UMass, I'll give you that one. Demetris was kicked off the team in his senior year and never played anywhere, that's not a "transfer". Wallace was injured and ended his playing career. Diggs was really the first player under Dixon to be "pushed out".

My point was that players voluntarily transferring to other schools has been rare at Pitt. Under Dixon, Milligan was the only one for quite a while. Those are mostly way different circumstances from Birch, JJohnson, Gilbert, et al. leaving for their own reasons.
 
I'm not as well versed in the Howland guys, but for Dixon, you are skewing this. Milligan left for UMass, I'll give you that one. Demetris was kicked off the team in his senior year and never played anywhere, that's not a "transfer". Wallace was injured and ended his playing career. Diggs was really the first player under Dixon to be "pushed out".

My point was that players voluntarily transferring to other schools has been rare at Pitt. Under Dixon, Milligan was the only one for quite a while. Those are mostly way different circumstances from Birch, JJohnson, Gilbert, et al. leaving for their own reasons.

Well, limiting it to pure transfers is different. And, unless someone is in the room with the player and coach when it is being discussed, it is difficult to determine whether it was a player wanting to transfer or being told he was transferring. Nobody really knows if a transfer was voluntary. The NCAA and the studies I've seen count departures, not motivation why.

It's simplest to count roster turnover rather than parse detail of why they left. Basically, except disciplinary expulsions or academic problems, all departures are about playing time.

Walter Waters left the program between signing his letter of intent under Howland and the start of school. Dixon was head coach when that occurred and at the time, it was considered Dixon pushed him out to sign a guard instead.

Ed Turner redshirted under Howland and played sparingly during Dixon's first season and then transferred. Voluntary or forced? After this time, who knows. But, he precedded Milligan by a year.

Milligan and Demetris left the next year. Yuri was kicked out for off-court transgressions but so was Durand Johnson. Demetris has no eligibility remaining when he was kicked free, so any transfer was impossible. Durand did. Is punching his girlfriend in a domestic argument worse than multiple drug violations? Sure, today. 20 or 30 years ago, the punches would have gotten a slap on the wrists and the drugs might have brought a 20 year jail sentence.

Wallace was hurt, but like Uchebo, he could physically play a little bit while somewhat hobbled. If he had been as skilled as Joe, he'd have been on the roster. His medical release was as much about talent level as injury.

Dodson was eligibility , pure and simple but he was here and had to leave, so he's statistically a departure, the same as if he flunked out.

Diggs was pushed out, both for attitude and lack of talent. Simmerdunna, who had been his biggest booster as well as a relative by marriage, actually cleared Dixon of wrong-doing and said Diggs was to blane for his own problems.

Separating Dwight Miller and JJ Richardson from the earlier departures is purely an arbitrary decision. Diggs signed in 2007, Miller in 2008 and Richardson in 2009. Clearly, there was a high degree of "push" from the staff in all 3 big men leaving, although Richardson probably left a year before he would have been pushed.

More recently, John Johnson and Gilbert were probably more like Richardson. Neither had achieved what they were expected and either might have been asked to leave a year after they chose to go. Because Adams left, Gilbert might have been encouraged to stay, but given his lack of performance
at Fairfield, and Johnson's at PSU, neither was ever likely tomcontribute much here.

Again, statistically we are pretty much at the norm. Most competitive schools are unfortunately aggressive with managing their roster and many players are just as aggressive in managing their careers. The days of everybody signing for 4 years and those who don't play happily sitting the bench are gone.
 
unless someone is in the room with the player and coach when it is being discussed, it is difficult to determine whether it was a player wanting to transfer or being told he was transferring. Nobody really knows if a transfer was voluntary.

I agree with that 100%, but you cannot claim someone being ineligible is the same as someone packing up and leaving in the middle or at the completion of a season. Those are completely different situations. The reason this question came up was because a seemingly high number of players who had played games for Pitt were leaving the program for other schools. What you are listing has little bearing on that.

Again, until Dixon started "over-recruiting" by practice, players leaving the program for other schools was fairly rare.

There have been a lot of negative comments about the number of transfers the last few years, but other than Birch they mostly seem to be guys pretty much seeing the handwriting on the wall.

This isn't a conversation about too many players beating their girlfriends, or too many players not qualifying, this is a conversation about players in the program leaving for other schools.
 
I think the biggest factor in the state of the program the past few years have been this combination:

Dante Taylor not panning out +Khem Birch Transfer + Steve Adams unexpected 1 and done + the misses on the guard recruiting.

Remember, at one time we were salivating over a potential Taylor/Birch/Adams and maybe JJ Moore front line.
 
Again, until Dixon started "over-recruiting" by practice, players leaving the program for other schools was fairly rare.
Well, I'm not sure how you define "fairly rare" but when 3 guys left in the first two seasons, plus as DT points out, Tony Tate, that is certainly not fairly rare by a rational defintion.

This isn't a conversation about too many players beating their girlfriends, or too many players not qualifying, this is a conversation about players in the program leaving for other schools.

You can define it by a different criteria if you want but this thread is mostly a continuation from the Newkirk Transferring thread, where Pitt79 asked why so many kids were leaving lately. The OP's point is valid. Very few of the defectors hurt us.

Without being in the room, it is difficult to positively assign the reasons why any kid leaves and stats and reports I've cited don't try to differentiate. By those stats, we are in the average. I'm not particularly happy Dixon has had so much turnover but to be correct, he generally doesn't exactly over-recruit. He knows how many kids he has leaving and he keeps the roster full. Being aggressive in recruiting s not something many on this board are criticizing Dixon for.
 
Trying to figure out what 17 y/o kids do moving up to the next level is a crapshoot unless your taking the elite can't miss guys. Birch really came here with very limited offensive abilities athletic yes ,but no short range jumper. Pitt isn't getting the elite guys . Look at the baseball or hockey drafts , high school kids take years to develope if at all. When does a kid peak?
Ps. If you want to play ball and it's not working out move on it's the smart thing to do if you want pt
Birch woudl;n;t have needed any jump shooting skills at all if he had stuck around at Pitt. he was exactly what we were missing for a couple of those years--super athletic around the rim, ran the floor like a gazelle. Would have developed a lot more big man skills at Pitt than he did at UNLV. I also wish Bond would have stayed on. He looked good at UTEX until his injury. He was what i consider opt be a "Dixon-type" player and could have become a very nice 4 for us.
 
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