Mikan probably not so much because there really weren’t any other players his size when he played. But I did read an article about 15 years ago by someone who watched him play often that Petitt would do ok in this generation.
Where Does Steph Curry Rank?
- Thread starter TheSpecialSauce
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Although, because of his height, Bird’s release didn’t need to be as quick. I don’t generally disagree with you but I would love to see Bird in todays offenses where threes are half of the offense.
Those two years where the Rockets won were glorious, back when it seemed like every playoff game beyond round two was on NBC. Playoffs were more wide open and you didn't have that air of inevitability you had when the Bulls had Jordan. My only regret were that my teams of that era (Pacers and Sonics) couldn't get it done.
That Rocket team did have a few guys who would go on to become fringe all stars (thinking mainly Cassell and Horry) but it was guard by committee. I can remember in the finals where it seemed like one guard would go off every game.
Before picking a top 10 you have to realize that basketball was played before 1980.
It was terrible. Watch those classic games. The skill level was horrible compared to today. You could enter this year's Pitt team into the 1970 NBA and they probably go undefeated. Maybe I'm being sarcastic but only a little. Players are so much more athletic and more skilled now.
You’ve said a lot of dumb things over the years. Few compare to this. Wilt, The Big O, Jerry West, Russell, Elgin Baylor, Dr. J, Pistol Pete. Very few more modern players can approach their greatness. Period
You never played basketball. You don't understand. Most of those guys wouldn't start. I am sorry if it hurts your feelings as they were great players in their era but today's athletes would toy with them.
Mt Rushmore is pretty set for now. In no particular order:
Kareem (6 rings, 6 MVPs, 2 finals MVPs, all time leading scorer, greatest college player of all time if you include that)
LBJ (new school GOAT choice)
Jordan (probably GOAT to the majority of hoops heads)
Russell (greatest champion, 11 in 13 years as key leader. Celtics didn't win a playoff series the year before or after him.)
Then I think a second tier of no particular order with Magic, Bird, Wilt, Jerry, Big O, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq -- and now Steph. He may be the most SKILLED offensive player of all time, but he is a defensive liability. Love the dude's game though.
With all due respect, how do you not have Kobe in that first group? It's pretty much consensus that he's one of the handful of all time greats.
Honestly I think it should look more like this:
1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
I don't think there's any real debate that Curry belongs in the top 10. He is a unique talent that has changed the way the NBA game is played the same way that MJ and others did before him.
I dont generally get into these debates but,
Jordan is far and away #1. And its not all that close.
Bill Russel has to be one of the most disrespected players Ive ever seen in any sport. He won 11 NBA Championships, is a 5X NBA MVP, is the greatest defensive player in NBA history and is the best rebounder in NBA history. He also averaged over 4 assists per game and was extremely athletic and he would without question dominate in todays game. Bill Russel to me is easily in my top 5 without even thinking twice and he's probably closer to top 3. I should also mention, they didnt even track blocks back then and it is estimate he averaged 10 blocks per game. 10!!! Mutumbo and Olajuwon averaged 3 blocks per game for their careers. Here is an idea of how Russel moves and just how athletic he was. Its no wonder why Boston dominated with him.
This is why these types of debates are always good message board debate fodder.
Allow me to provide this in rebuttal. The top 7 I'm presenting isn't just my list -- it's a pretty good consensus of almost any expect list you can find. About a year or so ago, my son and I were putting together an entire league of all time NBA players in NBA 2K. To prepare for the project, we he literally looked up dozens upon dozen of NBA all time rankings from web sites, experts, and other sources.
He spent a great deal of time on this project and put all of the different lists into his own spreadsheet, etc. and did some high school AP stats analysis of how everything shook out.
And the results were pretty much what I posted.
The top three just about always came up as
1. MJ
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
After those three, there was a bit of a separation into the group of the next four, which were more or less most often ordered this way:
4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Bird
After those four, there was another separation into the next group, but the next two mentioned most often mentioned were clearly:
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
After those 9 -- the names you would see most often were Moses Malone, Akeem, Oscar Robertson, and Kobe, and some others (Karl Malone, Dr. J, Curry, Durant, even Jerry West). I think it's pretty clear that any of these could deservedly fit into the #10 spot, or even slide into those 8-9 spots.
As I explained, Curry was part of that "some others," but this was a year ago, and I think his NBA run moves him up some on most lists and is now a much better candidate for the #10 spot.
As for Kobe, there were some lists that had him higher, even into the top 8-9 spots. There was a deviation that existed with all of the lists which made this project kinda fun.
But the top 7 was pretty statistically stable , and the same can be said even said to some extent for the top 9.
Personally, I'd have Kobe around #13-#15 because in short his offense was based on the shooting the ball so much, and his defense, although very, very good, wasn't as elite as some others may indicate. Something else that has always impacted my thoughts on Kobe was his all-time Win Shares per/48 which is .1705 placing him at #63 all time. There's obviously some finessing and common sense that needs to be applied when reviewing such a stat, but do keep in mind the #63 is far below each and every other player I've mentioned in this post. (Moses Malone is #57 and Akeem is #50).
Win shares per 48 takes into account both offensive and defensive win shares.
NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Win Shares Per 48 Minutes | Basketball-Reference.com
Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com
www.basketball-reference.com
So what I'm saying is that stats can be somewhat misleading, but they are NOT totally misleading. And accordingly, I'm not trying to state that Kobe stinks or he wildly overrated as a rule. But taking so many other things into account, I think #13 - #15 more than fair for him.
Guys in the 50s, 60a, 70s were playing against competition lower than what major D1 basketball is now so their stats are skewed. Those guys were great in their day but players weren't nearly as good as they were now. If your list is who were the best players in relation to their era, then yea Russell, Bird, etc are at the top but if you drop those guys into today's NBA without a lifetime of training, they would just be a nice starters, maybe, maybe low-level all starsThis is why these types of debates are always good message board debate fodder.
Allow me to provide this in rebuttal. The top 7 I'm presenting isn't just my list -- it's a pretty good consensus of almost any expect list you can find. About a year or so ago, my son and I were putting together an entire league of all time NBA players in NBA 2K. To prepare for the project, we he literally looked up dozens upon dozen of NBA all time rankings from web sites, experts, and other sources.
He spent a great deal of time on this project and put all of the different lists into his own spreadsheet, etc. and did some high school AP stats analysis of how everything shook out.
And the results were pretty much what I posted.
The top three just about always came up as
1. MJ
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
After those three, there was a bit of a separation into the group of the next four, which were more or less most often ordered this way:
4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Bird
After those four, there was another separation into the next group, but the next two mentioned most often mentioned were clearly:
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
After those 9 -- the names you would see most often were Moses Malone, Oscar Robertson, Akeem, Oscar Robertson, and Kobe, and some others (Karl Malone, Dr. J, Curry, Durant, even Jerry West). I think it's pretty clear that any of these could deservedly fit into the #10 spot, or even slide into those 8-9 spots.
As I explained, Curry was part of that "some others," but this was a year ago, and I think his NBA run moves him up some on most lists and is now a much better candidate for the #10 spot.
As for Kobe, there were some lists that had him higher, even into the top 8-9 spots. There was a deviation that existed with all of the lists which made this project kinda fun.
But the top 7 was pretty statistically stable , and the same can be said even said to some extent for the top 9.
Personally, I'd have Kobe around #13-#15 because in short his offense was based on the shooting the ball so much, and his defense, although very, very good, wasn't as elite as some others may indicate. Something else that has always impacted my thoughts on Kobe was his all-time Win Shares per/48 which is .1705 placing him at #63 all time. There's obviously some finessing and common sense that needs to be applied when reviewing such a stat, but do keep in mind the #63 is far below each and every other player I've mentioned in this post. (Moses Malone is #57 and Akeem is #50).
Win shares per 48 takes into account both offensive and defensive win shares.
NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Win Shares Per 48 Minutes | Basketball-Reference.com
Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com
So what I'm saying is that stats can be somewhat misleading, but they are NOT totally misleading. And accordingly, I'm not trying to state that Kobe stinks or he wildly overrated as a rule. But taking so many other things into account, I think #13 - #15 more than fair for him.
Bird, Magic, Russell and Wilt are top 10 in any generation. If you want to make your case against George Mikan though, I won’t stop you. Enjoy!
Bird in today's game isnt better than Luka Doncic. He was a great player in his era and would be a very good player now but not one of the best ever.
Putting up video game numbers is a lot easier today than in the past because of all the rule change differences.
Its why Jordan would average 50+ points per game every game in his sleep in todays NBA. If Jordan could average almost 35 points per game in the NBA playoffs for his entire career in the hand check era when Chicago wasnt blowing teams away during the regular season , he would average 70+ points per game against the scrub teams in the NBA without even trying if he wanted to because Jordan would score more free throw points alone than most of the players in the entire NBA could score overall. Nobody would be remotely close to stopping him and he would be the leading scorer in the NBA every single year in his sleep. And Bird would dominate too.
The defense back then and the defense today along with the rule change differences is like night and day especially when driving into the paint. Bill Russell today would also kill it in todays game because he had elite level athleticism. Bill Russell would be one of the most athletic players in the NBA in todays game because of his overall speed alone, passing, rebounding, shot blocking, defense, etc... You are underestimating how athletic and fast he actually was.
Your point that you are trying to make is that athletes are faster and stronger today than back then. Yes, that is true to an extent. But in a way you are also suggesting old players couldn't make it in todays game. Its like saying Bobby Orr couldnt play in todays NHL because the game is so much faster and Orr had old skates. Bobby Orr would skate circles around everyone in todays NHL. I sound like a Boston fan here and Im not. Im just making a point of the general disrespect for older players playing in a different era. Some of those players would absolutely dominate in todays NBA.
Also, Luka Doncic's stats as a 22 year old are better than Lebron James when he was 22. It is TBD how high Doncic ranks all time when he is done, but right now, he is going to climb pretty high on the all time ladder.
Don’t agree, but even by your logic, Luka might end up as a top 10 of all time himself after he’s all said and done.
Meanwhile, Bird played on the same courts as Magic and Jordan. It’s easy to compare and know Bird and Magic are right there with Jordan, but only the obvious smidge below.
This is of personal opinion. But if you put the 1992 NBA dream team with Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc.. against todays dream team or any dream team of the Lebron / Curry era of players and there was a 7 game series, I dont think todays players would win 1 game against Jordan's dream team of 1992. Im not sure they could beat them 1 game out of 10 with the old rules or todays rules. The win margin of Jordan's dream team was about 40-45 points per game.
I don’t agree with the 40-45 margin but I get your point, and don’t disagree.
The only bummer with the 92 team was that Bird’s back was shot by then, and even then he could still play, he had fallen a great deal from his prime just 6 years before.
I think it’s easy to suggest that the Larry Bird who played from 1984-1986 would be the NBA MVP now just like he was then.
I think you misunderstood me. The 40-45 point margin is what the 1992 dream team actually beat their competition by. I would have to look it up but its like 40+ points per game in competition. And these games were over in the first 10 minutes, every single game, they just blew people away. These guys were not losing exhibition games, qualifying games, or coming home with the Bronze medal like what we have witnessed in the last 20 years. Team USA basketball is not what it once was.
I dont know how bad the 1992 dream team would beat today's dream team of Lebron James and whoever else, but the 1992 team would win comfortably and imho almost fairly easily just about every single game they played against any of todays players unless there was one of those games of hot 3 point shooters.
It's not, but much of the rest of the world is also vastly superior today to what they were 30 years ago.
Agree these debate are useless but kind of fun. like you by virtue of age I had the privilege of enjoying the NBA as a fan during its heyday. Jordan is the best of all time and like another poster said 2nd best isn’t even close. Russell and Wilt are lightning rods for debate because they played in an era where they were so physically superior to anyone else it wasn’t even fair.. And I wouldn’t put Shaq or Duncan ahead of Kobe or Curry on any list. That’s based on my own 2 eyeballs, not the expert lists and advanced stats. Skill-wise neither of them was in the same hemisphere as Kobe or Curry. Kobe shot a lot-because he was the best basketball player on the floor in just about every game he played in. Curry is much the same. Shaq couldn’t put a team on his back or close out a game in the last 2 minutes. I’m fact, he couldn’t even be on the floor due to his atrocious foul shooting. Kobe and Curry closed games out by themselves routinely.This is why these types of debates are always good message board debate fodder.
Allow me to provide this in rebuttal. The top 7 I'm presenting isn't just my list -- it's a pretty good consensus of almost any expect list you can find. About a year or so ago, my son and I were putting together an entire league of all time NBA players in NBA 2K. To prepare for the project, we he literally looked up dozens upon dozen of NBA all time rankings from web sites, experts, and other sources.
He spent a great deal of time on this project and put all of the different lists into his own spreadsheet, etc. and did some high school AP stats analysis of how everything shook out.
And the results were pretty much what I posted.
The top three just about always came up as
1. MJ
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
After those three, there was a bit of a separation into the group of the next four, which were more or less most often ordered this way:
4. Russell
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Bird
After those four, there was another separation into the next group, but the next two mentioned most often mentioned were clearly:
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
After those 9 -- the names you would see most often were Moses Malone, Oscar Robertson, Akeem, Oscar Robertson, and Kobe, and some others (Karl Malone, Dr. J, Curry, Durant, even Jerry West). I think it's pretty clear that any of these could deservedly fit into the #10 spot, or even slide into those 8-9 spots.
As I explained, Curry was part of that "some others," but this was a year ago, and I think his NBA run moves him up some on most lists and is now a much better candidate for the #10 spot.
As for Kobe, there were some lists that had him higher, even into the top 8-9 spots. There was a deviation that existed with all of the lists which made this project kinda fun.
But the top 7 was pretty statistically stable , and the same can be said even said to some extent for the top 9.
Personally, I'd have Kobe around #13-#15 because in short his offense was based on the shooting the ball so much, and his defense, although very, very good, wasn't as elite as some others may indicate. Something else that has always impacted my thoughts on Kobe was his all-time Win Shares per/48 which is .1705 placing him at #63 all time. There's obviously some finessing and common sense that needs to be applied when reviewing such a stat, but do keep in mind the #63 is far below each and every other player I've mentioned in this post. (Moses Malone is #57 and Akeem is #50).
Win shares per 48 takes into account both offensive and defensive win shares.
NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Win Shares Per 48 Minutes | Basketball-Reference.com
Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for and more on Basketball-Reference.com
So what I'm saying is that stats can be somewhat misleading, but they are NOT totally misleading. And accordingly, I'm not trying to state that Kobe stinks or he wildly overrated as a rule. But taking so many other things into account, I think #13 - #15 more than fair for him.
This kind of speaks for itself:
Bryant won five NBA championships, was an 18-time All-Star, a 15-time member of the All-NBA Team, a 12-time member of the All-Defensive Team, the 2008 NBA Most Valuable Player(MVP), and a two-time NBA Finals MVP. Bryant also led the NBA in scoring twice, and ranks fourth in league all-time regular season and postseason scoring.
Certainly a fair rebuttal indeed! But we will both stick to our guns as we should (even though you are WRONG
and most others agree LOL!!!!)Let's hope we can get back to "NOT" debating how many Sweet 16's our Panthers have made. Between 2002 and 2009, it was 5.
And between 2002 and 2016, there's no debate we made 13 NCAA tournaments. Anyone out there want to tell us we are wrong about that?
We should be left to fight about which Pitt hoopsters were best during this time. I'd sure as hell rather get back to that.
Lebron flopping all over the court wouldn’t fly either. Dream team players took hits like real men and dished it out too.
Your using terrible logic to argue this point. Dropping a guy from the 80s into today also needs to take into consideration that those players would benefit from the same physical training that modern stars enjoy.
Gonna go out on a limb and think LeBron would be fine playing in the big bad 90s.
They also had to walk to school, up hill, in the snow, both ways.
They truly were real men!
LeBron isn’t even the worst flopper in the league. Not even top 5.
In any event, it all comes down to the way the game is officiated. The notion that someone like Larry Bird wouldn't have flopped to get a call if he thought that the refs would give it to him is batshit crazy.
Players didn't play bullyball in the 80s and 90s because that's the way that real men play, they played that way because the refs ignored those obvious fouls, which made that the best way to get the result that the players wanted. If at any point the refs had started calling those fouls the best players would have adjusted. Just like the best players always do. Just like the best players of today would adjust if the NBA collectively went insane and instructed their refs to start ignoring those obvious fouls again.
I think you missed my point of his flopping crap he pulls off the minute he gets a tiny bit of bumping. That shit doesn’t fly in 80s and 90s and he better be prepared to get drilled every time he drives in the lane. I don’t think he has the mentality to get into a physical battle with the old guard of the pistons.
As @Joe the Panther Fan noted, this is just a “back in my day” argument that’s also influenced by your well-expressed disdain for LeBron. He’s playing in a style that suits the rules. He’d actually probably be even better playing in the 80s and 90s.
LBJ is 6-9 260lbs and built like a brick house. He would do just fine.
Except he plays like the biggest baby. Yeah, plays real tough. I can just see him now spending the entire game on the floor rolling around in pain against the Pistons with Lambeer, Salley, Mahorn, and Rodman. Heck I think even Thomas would own him physically.
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Well if you are going to say that then you have to acknowledge that if they played the games where the refs at least try to call the game by the rulebook that Lambeer, Salley, Mahorn and Rodman would all foul out before half time.
Heck, probably Thomas too.
You have to admit, the notion that LeBron would be intimidated by a pussy like Bill Lambeer is hilarious.
Lebron flopping says he would constantly be rolling around on the court in pain. Just call him Lebron “Acting Like an Italian Soccer Player” James
Your dislike of LeBron is ridiculous and you’re grasping at straws at this point. Take the L and move on.
I have no reason to take the L. The players of the 80s were bad ass who played extremely high tempo fast break basketball while also being mean ass bastards in the paint. They didn’t care if you were Bird, Magic, or Jordan. You came into the lane you better be ready to take it the basket with every big man ready to destroy you. Lebron might be a giant, but his antics on the court with flopping has been called out by plenty of commentators. Laimbeer was an enforcer, but so was every other big man. Maybe you don’t respect the 80s or are too young to remember just how tough it was.
I think the word you're looking for is unskilled. Goons in the NBA were unskilled. And I can't take your argument seriously because you're just assuming that LeBron wouldn't be able to handle it because... you don't like him as a person? Not because he's playing in a way to exploit the rules like every other player does.
Forget LeBron, who obviously would have abused all those 90s players. Imagine putting Giannis in a league where zone defense was agaisnt the rules.
