Where it all started going South

[Fsgolfdr]

One can point to Steven Adams early departure or K Birch leaving ,but I really think 2015 was the year it all started . Young and Artis we’re going into their junior yrs and JRob was a solid senior pg and despite missing on all his main targets the previous yr ( 2014 ) JD got very lucky with the signings of Cam and R Luther . Another good class in 2015 and Pitt could’ve been an excellent team . That was when D Wilson and R Nix were brought in followed the next yr by the debacle of Kithcart , Manigault and Clark .Those two classes should be Pitts seniors and juniors along with Cam .
What we’re still seeing now is that you can’t win in the ACC with freshman and sophomores unless they’re elite players whether your coaches name is KS or JC . Last night without Zion Duke got beat with two elite freshman soon to be high 1st rounders in the nba draft so you can even add Coach K to that list that can’t win with freshman that are human . If you can’t win with young elite talent you definitely can’t win with non elite freshman and sophomores .
There’s no comparison in the recruiting abilities of the last three of Pitt coaches , but JC needs the time to have ACC level guys who are seniors and juniors on his roster . It’s hard to watch , but patience is needed here . 2020 & 2021 is when we’ll see the results we all want and that’s when Pitt will have ACC level upperclassmen .

 

[Chescat]

What we’re still seeing now is that you can’t win in the ACC with freshman and sophomores unless they’re elite players

So true. By the way, just for the heck of it....anyone here ever play in college
as a freshmen?

 

[PittPoker]

True but haven't been impressed with the coaching either in recent games.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

True but haven't been impressed with the coaching either in recent games.

He just doesn't have the players . They can't shoot , rebound or guard the post . Tough to overcome .

 

[PittPoker]

He just doesn't have the players . They can't shoot , rebound or guard the post . Tough to overcome .

Well considering we missed on all of our big men targets thus far and only have 2 guys committed for next year, I'm kinda worried next season will be more of the same. No pure outside shooter, no top big man, JWF leaves and most likely so does N'dir. I don't know, this rebuild to me looks like a 3 year process at least.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

Well considering we missed on all of our big men targets thus far and only have 2 guys committed for next year, I'm kinda worried next season will be more of the same. No pure outside shooter, no top big man, JWF leaves and most likely so does N'dir. I don't know, this rebuild to me looks like a 3 year process at least.

2020 is the yr that better recruits will come in , X and Trey’s jr yrs .

 

[TheLogicalTake]

2020 is the yr that better recruits will come in , X and Trey’s jr yrs .

I think we should prepare ourselves for Johnson/McGowens/Toney not being 4 year guys. With the new rule that lets kids declare and then come back, don’t be surprised if one or two of them do that this year. Honestly, its a very smart move as it lets the kids solicit feedback and get an understanding of where they’re at in terms of going to the next level.

Assuming they continue on their current trajectory, I think 2-3 years is a rational expectation.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Recruiting classes
2015
Wilson
Nix

2016
Manigault
Kithcart
Clark

0 for 5. 2 classes, 0 talent. Had we gotten 3 or 4 good ACC players out of those 5, we arent in this mess.

Also, our lack of recruiting any halfway decent big man post-Adams has been embarrassing.

Randall
Haughton
Uchebo
Nix
Brown
Kene

Our best C since Adams has been Rafael Maia.

Its pretty simple. When you go 2 full classes without bringing in one solitary ACC-level player plus add the fact that we havent had an ACC-level Center since leaving the Big East, well....

 

[pittchagg]

Recruiting classes
2015
Wilson
Nix

2016
Manigault
Kithcart
Clark

0 for 5. 2 classes, 0 talent. Had we gotten 3 or 4 good ACC players out of those 5, we arent in this mess.

Also, our lack of recruiting any halfway decent big man post-Adams has been embarrassing.

Randall
Haughton
Uchebo
Nix
Brown
Kene

Our best C since Adams has been Rafael Maia.

Its pretty simple. When you go 2 full classes without bringing in one solitary ACC-level player plus add the fact that we havent had an ACC-level Center since leaving the Big East, well....

I think Manigault was a legitimate ACC player and probably would have been our starter at the 4 this season. I think he would have helped us quite a bit this season and next season in the areas where this team is the weakest.

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

One can point to Steven Adams early departure or K Birch leaving ,but I really think 2015 was the year it all started . Young and Artis we’re going into their junior yrs and JRob was a solid senior pg and despite missing on all his main targets the previous yr ( 2014 ) JD got very lucky with the signings of Cam and R Luther . Another good class in 2015 and Pitt could’ve been an excellent team . That was when D Wilson and R Nix were brought in followed the next yr by the debacle of Kithcart , Manigault and Clark .Those two classes should be Pitts seniors and juniors along with Cam .
What we’re still seeing now is that you can’t win in the ACC with freshman and sophomores unless they’re elite players whether your coaches name is KS or JC . Last night without Zion Duke got beat with two elite freshman soon to be high 1st rounders in the nba draft so you can even add Coach K to that list that can’t win with freshman that are human . If you can’t win with young elite talent you definitely can’t win with non elite freshman and sophomores .
There’s no comparison in the recruiting abilities of the last three of Pitt coaches , but JC needs the time to have ACC level guys who are seniors and juniors on his roster . It’s hard to watch , but patience is needed here . 2020 & 2021 is when we’ll see the results we all want and that’s when Pitt will have ACC level upperclassmen .

agree, 2015 was in full erode stage coinciding with move to ACC.

 

[heybandguy]

Nothing says complete misery like a rehash of previous recruiting classes under departed coaches.

 

[FireballZ]

Nothing says complete misery like a rehash of previous recruiting classes under departed coaches.

What did you think this post was about given the subject? A marriage gone astray?

To answer how we got to where we are today, you have to look backwards. Pitt has lost 22 in a row on the road, in conference. 10 years ago, did we lose 22 in conference, TOTAL, over a 3-4 year stretch?

 

[Fsgolfdr]

I think we should prepare ourselves for Johnson/McGowens/Toney not being 4 year guys. With the new rule that lets kids declare and then come back, don’t be surprised if one or two of them do that this year. Honestly, its a very smart move as it lets the kids solicit feedback and get an understanding of where they’re at in terms of going to the next level.

Assuming they continue on their current trajectory, I think 2-3 years is a rational expectation.

I normally agree with a lot of your posts , but the only one whose even got a chance to leave early based on their play so far is X and there’s much improvement needed . His on court decision making is questionable as his shot . Trey is at a size that unless he becomes a much and I mean much better shooter from 3 pt range as well as a mid range game he’s going nowhere . Toney is also too small for his game as last night showed with his shots being easily rejected . He’s got to find a reliable mid range jumper to even continue to see significant PT at Pitt as JC recruits better players . Their young and their athletic and have a world of potential , but NBA guys are special and so far they don’t have that special look .

 

[Fsgolfdr]

Nothing says complete misery like a rehash of previous recruiting classes under departed coaches.

Your missing the point , the fact that there’s no contribution from those classes is why Pitt is struggling . Their freshman aren’t anywhere close to a programs like Duke and look what happened when Zion couldn’t play . Until Pitt has upperclassmen that are of ACC caliber they will continue to struggle because freshman playing against experienced upperclassmen is usually a mismatch . There’s nothing wrong with freshman seeing significant PT , but they can’t be your best players unless their name is Zion .

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Well considering we missed on all of our big men targets thus far and only have 2 guys committed for next year, I'm kinda worried next season will be more of the same. No pure outside shooter, no top big man, JWF leaves and most likely so does N'dir. I don't know, this rebuild to me looks like a 3 year process at least.

Drumgoole is a shooter. He has a really nice shot. And he's 6'6"

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I think we should prepare ourselves for Johnson/McGowens/Toney not being 4 year guys. With the new rule that lets kids declare and then come back, don’t be surprised if one or two of them do that this year. Honestly, its a very smart move as it lets the kids solicit feedback and get an understanding of where they’re at in terms of going to the next level.

Assuming they continue on their current trajectory, I think 2-3 years is a rational expectation.

Not this year. No way. I think each of them have shown serious weaknesses that they need to work on.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Recruiting classes
2015
Wilson
Nix

2016
Manigault
Kithcart
Clark

0 for 5. 2 classes, 0 talent. Had we gotten 3 or 4 good ACC players out of those 5, we arent in this mess.

Also, our lack of recruiting any halfway decent big man post-Adams has been embarrassing.

Randall
Haughton
Uchebo
Nix
Brown
Kene

Our best C since Adams has been Rafael Maia.

Its pretty simple. When you go 2 full classes without bringing in one solitary ACC-level player plus add the fact that we havent had an ACC-level Center since leaving the Big East, well....

That's pretty sobering. And it is why....oh not going there as the attack dogs will come out. But if you think about it, Cam and Luther were almost afterthoughts, especially Cam. But the last two classes of JD were worse than Duquesne level back when Duquesne was bad. And yes, we are feeling it now because of this.

On a good note, at least it helped hasten Stallings departure so you got to look at the positives.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

I think Manigault was a legitimate ACC player and probably would have been our starter at the 4 this season. I think he would have helped us quite a bit this season and next season in the areas where this team is the weakest.

He’s doing ok at NMS , but it doesn’t appear he starts for them though he gets significant minutes . You wonder what was behind his issues while at Pitt , same for Kithcart that got him kicked off the team . Something was going on there .

 

[Fsgolfdr]

That's pretty sobering. And it is why....oh not going there as the attack dogs will come out. But if you think about it, Cam and Luther were almost afterthoughts, especially Cam. But the last two classes of JD were worse than Duquesne level back when Duquesne was bad. And yes, we are feeling it now because of this.

On a good note, at least it helped hasten Stallings departure so you got to look at the positives.

Had they been average ACC classes would JD still be here ? I really believe as much as I liked JD Pitt will be better served in the long run with JC .

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

That's pretty sobering. And it is why....oh not going there as the attack dogs will come out. But if you think about it, Cam and Luther were almost afterthoughts, especially Cam. But the last two classes of JD were worse than Duquesne level back when Duquesne was bad. And yes, we are feeling it now because of this.

On a good note, at least it helped hasten Stallings departure so you got to look at the positives.

You cant go 2 classes and land 0 good players. Those guys werent even average. Stallings followed this up by landing only 3 ACC-level players (IMO, some will disagree) in JWF, Carr, Stewart and JWF being a JUCO cant help long-term.

So out of 3 classes, you have a grand total of ZERO ACC-level freshmen. Capel got 3 in month

 

[youghpanther1]

Gil Johnson chipped in 1.4 points per game as a freshman. LOL. Killer stuff.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

You cant go 2 classes and land 0 good players. Those guys werent even average. Stallings followed this up by landing only 3 ACC-level players (IMO, some will disagree) in JWF, Carr, Stewart and JWF being a JUCO cant help long-term.

So out of 3 classes, you have a grand total of ZERO ACC-level freshmen. Capel got 3 in month

Damon Wilson was ranked fairly high wasn't he? I mean it didn't take much to see that he was....what? He reminded of the time on the Office when the Office was going to play the Warehouse workers in a game of basketball and Michael picked Stanley because he was black...then saw Stanley try and dribble and he was like "what, you are kidding me"? That was what we all saw when Damon Wilson tried to play.

First 25 seconds of this is what I am talking about.

 

[BFo8]

I think we should prepare ourselves for Johnson/McGowens/Toney not being 4 year guys. With the new rule that lets kids declare and then come back, don’t be surprised if one or two of them do that this year. Honestly, its a very smart move as it lets the kids solicit feedback and get an understanding of where they’re at in terms of going to the next level.

Assuming they continue on their current trajectory, I think 2-3 years is a rational expectation.

You’ve got to be kidding me. We have a thread on here about Cam Johnson, who has accomplished a lot more at a higher level than any of those guys. His length on the perimeter is special, something that the NBA looks for.

With all that he is a late 2nd rounder if he ends up being drafted and is a longshot to make an NBA roster.

Pitt’s biggest fear isn’t losing Johnson/McGowens/Toney to the NBA, it’s losing them to transfer to another school. That’s the era we live in now.

 

[Team_Pitt_Fan]

Relax it will be okay

 

[BFo8]

He’s doing ok at NMS , but it doesn’t appear he starts for them though he gets significant minutes . You wonder what was behind his issues while at Pitt , same for Kithcart that got him kicked off the team . Something was going on there .

Actually he’s at New Mexico, playing against much better competition than he would at NMSU. The few games I’ve seen him he’s looked like someone that could’ve helped Pitt somewhat this year, but he’s had disciplinary issues, including punching an opposing player.

With a new coach here trying to build a program from nothing it’s probably best Manigault moved on.

 

[H2P 2003]

Geee, another thread meant to attack Dixon...but it is the “JIGS” that cant move on.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

he’s had disciplinary issues, including punching an opposing player.

arrested at his junior college and a credible pay board poster said he did stuff here that there was no way they could keep him.....and he isnt that good soooooooooo

 

[Fsgolfdr]

Geee, another thread meant to attack Dixon...but it is the “JIGS” that cant move on.

The point once again was to tell those expecting a rapid rise to the top third of the conference and tournament appearances is that it’s just unrealistic until Pitt has quality upperclassmen . Those upperclassmen would’ve been in JDs last two classes and that’s just a fact .

 

[TheLogicalTake]

You’ve got to be kidding me. We have a thread on here about Cam Johnson, who has accomplished a lot more at a higher level than any of those guys. His length on the perimeter is special, something that the NBA looks for.

With all that he is a late 2nd rounder if he ends up being drafted and is a longshot to make an NBA roster.

Pitt’s biggest fear isn’t losing Johnson/McGowens/Toney to the NBA, it’s losing them to transfer to another school. That’s the era we live in now.

If you don’t think these kids are going to at least declare, you’re nuts. Most of the kids that declare aren’t ready, but it’s a nice tool for them to use to solicit feedback on where they stand in regards to the pro game.

Also, not every kid who leaves early has to be an NBA pick. With the G-League altering their pay scale and overseas always an option, there are a lot of factors in play. More often than not, all it takes is one family member/agent/advisor/scout/etc. to convince a kid that he’s ready to start getting paid to play professionally and that’s a wrap.

Maybe all 3 end up being 4 year guys and are leading our charge back to relevance as upper classmen, but I think a prudent approach is to plan on 2 years for every kid that comes in, unless you get a home run 1-and-done type who obviously is on a faster track.

 

[BuffetParrothead]

going South

 

[Fsgolfdr]

going South

Looks like your bear ended up in a tropical paradise Pitt bb kept going and ended up Antarctica !

 

[Fsgolfdr]

If you don’t think these kids are going to at least declare, you’re nuts. Most of the kids that declare aren’t ready, but it’s a nice tool for them to use to solicit feedback on where they stand in regards to the pro game.

Also, not every kid who leaves early has to be an NBA pick. With the G-League altering their pay scale and overseas always an option, there are a lot of factors in play. More often than not, all it takes is one family member/agent/advisor/scout/etc. to convince a kid that he’s ready to start getting paid to play professionally and that’s a wrap.

Maybe all 3 end up being 4 year guys and are leading our charge back to relevance as upper classmen, but I think a prudent approach is to plan on 2 years for every kid that comes in, unless you get a home run 1-and-done type who obviously is on a faster track.

No one knows what tomorrow brings and I’m 100% sure that every kid whose on a scholarship to a D1 program dreams of playing their sport professionally , but not one of Pitts players are even close right now to that level . Are they better off in the G -League making 7000/month or 35,000 /yr I’d doubt it . Anyone advising a kid to quit school for that amount of cash is crazy . What if their cut or injuried ? If your a can’t miss kind of guy you leave and take the life changing money ( Adams ) otherwise you get your education , you might actually need it .
PS .. no ones irreplaceable especially if you have a coach who can recruit , this isn’t pro sports were you can lock up a guy long term they come , they play for awhile and then they go ! Next guy up .

 

[heybandguy]

Your missing the point , the fact that there’s no contribution from those classes is why Pitt is struggling . Their freshman aren’t anywhere close to a programs like Duke and look what happened when Zion couldn’t play .

I don't think I am. I just have observed this entire line before. It has been said in numerous ways for the past four years. I get it, I just don't understand why it's being discussed again...and again...and again... It's disappointing. It's frustrating. But there are so many people to blame for the situation, it's just not worth the rehash from my perspective. I like where things are going with JC, and want to keep looking forward.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

I don't think I am. I just have observed this entire line before. It has been said in numerous ways for the past four years. I get it, I just don't understand why it's being discussed again...and again...and again... It's disappointing. It's frustrating. But there are so many people to blame for the situation, it's just not worth the rehash from my perspective. I like where things are going with JC, and want to keep looking forward.

Because folks are getting down on these Panthers . This is a total rebuild and it’s going to take time until they can assemble a roster mix of quality upperclassmen with freshman and sophomores that can compete. It’s intent is not to knock JDs recruiting it’s to account for Pitts inability to win in the ACC with the roster they have .

 

[thebadby2]

He’s doing ok at NMS , but it doesn’t appear he starts for them though he gets significant minutes . You wonder what was behind his issues while at Pitt , same for Kithcart that got him kicked off the team . Something was going on there .

Looks to me like he’s getting 8 PPG on 16 MPG on the 9th place team in a mid-major league.

Color me unimpressed.

 

[4Mark_Marty]

I think Manigault was a legitimate ACC player and probably would have been our starter at the 4 this season. I think he would have helped us quite a bit this season and next season in the areas where this team is the weakest.

That’s crap and you know it.

 

[H2P 2003]

That’s crap and you know it.

He is better than anything we have at the 4 now,.

 

[4Mark_Marty]

The point once again was to tell those expecting a rapid rise to the top third of the conference and tournament appearances is that it’s just unrealistic until Pitt has quality upperclassmen . Those upperclassmen would’ve been in JDs last two classes and that’s just a fact .

Yes. The cupboard is bare, which is what I feared back in 2015. It’s called not having blinders on, or living in reality, or not living in denial.

 

[4Mark_Marty]

He is better than anything we have at the 4 now,.

Better than Toney? You’re wrong. JWF plays some 4 too. Stop it. You’re exposing yourself as a fool.

 

[joeydavid]

People seem to want to point to this player or that player doing this or that as the reason Jamie lost his mojo here.

I think it really started to fall apart when Jamie decided to move away from what was working for him at Pitt and convinced himself that he needed to change his approach to get better.

Pitt needs to change their style to complete in the ACC has been proven false by VA.

Pitt needed to recruit different type of athlete to complete in the ACC, they didn't.

Pitt needs to be in the BE to recruit the northeast has been proven false by other ACC teams.

Finally, Jamie's hiring (and not firing some) of assistant coaches late in his tenure was just as bad of a decision as any of the others.

You name the premise and the reality is Jamie made too many wrong choices.

Barnes was correct in his decision to push Jamie out when he did. Had he gone the route of hiring Buzz or Capel, I don't think anyone would have bitched about the move.

One can point to Steven Adams early departure or K Birch leaving ,but I really think 2015 was the year it all started . Young and Artis we’re going into their junior yrs and JRob was a solid senior pg and despite missing on all his main targets the previous yr ( 2014 ) JD got very lucky with the signings of Cam and R Luther . Another good class in 2015 and Pitt could’ve been an excellent team . That was when D Wilson and R Nix were brought in followed the next yr by the debacle of Kithcart , Manigault and Clark .Those two classes should be Pitts seniors and juniors along with Cam .
What we’re still seeing now is that you can’t win in the ACC with freshman and sophomores unless they’re elite players whether your coaches name is KS or JC . Last night without Zion Duke got beat with two elite freshman soon to be high 1st rounders in the nba draft so you can even add Coach K to that list that can’t win with freshman that are human . If you can’t win with young elite talent you definitely can’t win with non elite freshman and sophomores .
There’s no comparison in the recruiting abilities of the last three of Pitt coaches , but JC needs the time to have ACC level guys who are seniors and juniors on his roster . It’s hard to watch , but patience is needed here . 2020 & 2021 is when we’ll see the results we all want and that’s when Pitt will have ACC level upperclassmen .