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Why is PN not a good recruiter?

djbpitt

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Jun 28, 2001
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Serious question here: I don't see all his pressers and TV interviews because I live out of town. But, in the limited number of times that I have, he seems very enthusiastic as well as someone who can relate to his players and young people. His appearance in Nate Peterman's football trick shots video was neat. He seems far more genuine than the carnival barker from State College.

So why does someone who seems to love his job and has sufficient enthusiasm struggle to land quality players in significant numbers?
 
He's a good and genuine man, that is obvious.

I've been told it's the game day atmosphere that kills him and we won't recruit well with all the empty yellow seats.
I'm sure there's some truth to that.

I fear he kind of missed the boat here. When he was hired, he was the IT asst. coach at the time. He had just won the coordinator of the year award for defense, and had an impeccable reputation as a defensive guru. He was asked to sit with other expert coaches and analyze the National Championship game on ESPN. He was a hot commodity.

However, when he got here it was late in the recruiting cycle and hard to cash in on that. Then, he could not translate his defensive success at MSU to Pitt because his "system" required a certain type of player, and Pitt didn't have that on the roster. He was stubborn and attempted to make it work with what he had. Unfortunately, he produced some of the worst defenses in Pitt history! That tarnished his reputation of "guru".

Had he sold his "vision" and produced better results, there was a chance that high end defensive players would want to come play for him and be part of something special. I had hoped that Pitt would get a reputation as a shutdown defensive power, and the casual Yinzer fan would embrace the team, cause Yinzers love them some Steel Curtain n'at.

Didn't happen, quite the contrary. The team had no identity, and despite a couple of very nice wins, Clemson and Miami, there were also head scratching losses, NC and Navy/Northwestern.

So now he's just another "back in the pack" D1 coach trying to sell a mediocre product that isn't well supported and produces .500 results.
Pretty hard for elite recruits to do cartwheels over that!

Just my opinion. You only have one chance to make a good first impression.
 
Because recruiting is well beyond the head coach. In many ways, for many schools, the HC may be the least important element.

Past success (or even just perception of it), charismatic/greasy assistants, bag men, facilities, bag men, living quarters, bag men, amenities, bag men, "academic support" (aka fake classes and test takers), and of course, bag men... often matter much more.

Who the hell goes to Notre dame because they love Brian Kelly, for example? He's an absolute ahole, he demonstrated he'd let someone get killed just for a freaking practice...and frankly hasn't done nearly enough with his talent.
 
If bagmen are so prevalent, why hasn't someone blown the whistle on them?
I mean, there have had to be some double crosses somewhere, where someone was promised something and didn't get it? Why wouldn't they for spite squeal on that?

Also fired assistant coaches, or HC's, or AD's or HS coaches? So many people involved, but it's like the Mafia, or some top secret society. Or coaches/institutions that don't play that game. Why would they not demand federal investigations or NCAA or whatever if they're regularly getting screwed by this system?

I think the bag man crap is an overblown myth. It would have been exposed long ago for a lot of reasons if it was that widespread. Lots of BS and conjecture, but mostly legend, I suspect.
 
If bagmen are so prevalent, why hasn't someone blown the whistle on them?
I mean, there have had to be some double crosses somewhere, where someone was promised something and didn't get it? Why wouldn't they for spite squeal on that?

Also fired assistant coaches, or HC's, or AD's or HS coaches? So many people involved, but it's like the Mafia, or some top secret society. Or coaches/institutions that don't play that game. Why would they not demand federal investigations or NCAA or whatever if they're regularly getting screwed by this system?

I think the bag man crap is an overblown myth. It would have been exposed long ago for a lot of reasons if it was that widespread. Lots of BS and conjecture, but mostly legend, I suspect.
At the established blue bloods, i'd agree, they likely aren't as overt anymore. They're just taken care of in more subtle ways at those.

It's actually likely too late for a Pitt to suddenly amp up its cheating. It would be too obvious and abrupt. And our local media isn't complicit in the least, so they'd be all over it.

It would take a miracle...a stretch of several great seasons (not one fluke 11 or 12 win year) done solely on the ability to "coach up" our 2 and 3 stars, to bump up recruiting to a higher level without some kind of serious booster increases, though. A superlative QB needs to emerge in particular.

Probably like what Washington has done the last couple years, i'd say. They sort of emerged from the doldrums unpredictably and Ill just guess, perhaps naively, they did it semi- legit.

Even that might not be enough. We're likely trapped in Mediocre Groundhog day.
 
Because hes not Dave Wannstedt

Who, other than an urban Meyer or Nick saban type is the only coach I can think of the can actually bring talent to this program when the joint is half empty every Saturday.
 
People who scoff at idea of payola or fake classes after seeing Cam Newton or Reggie Bush or UNC are a little baffling. It clearly occurs and usually right in the open these days.

What I don't get is the insistence, often from the same parties denying payola, that our "half empty" stadium is our biggest if not SOLE issue. All but the most select bluest of blood's rarely play to packed houses. When PSU was briefly sanctioned, they were getting maybe 75% or less to many games. Attendance is spotty everywhere. Especially if you aren't winning every week. It's the same everywhere: Fans go if the team wins, they don't go if the team doesnt. It's not a "lack of school spirit" bullshit thing. This is a BUSINESS. Fans are CUSTOMERS. Recruits, more accurately their handlers, aren't morons. They're savvy to this. "I'm not going to Pitt because their empty seats are yellow and Kentucky's empty seats are blue. " Really?
 
Serious question here: I don't see all his pressers and TV interviews because I live out of town. But, in the limited number of times that I have, he seems very enthusiastic as well as someone who can relate to his players and young people. His appearance in Nate Peterman's football trick shots video was neat. He seems far more genuine than the carnival barker from State College.

So why does someone who seems to love his job and has sufficient enthusiasm struggle to land quality players in significant numbers?
It comes down to the simple fact that he doesn't have much of a product to sell. A lot of posters are unwilling to admit that, but it's undeniable.

The fact that Pitt is a good school, that it has a rich--but remote--football tradition, and that it has continued to produce the occasional NFL superstar is not sufficient attraction to bring the necessary quantity of high-level players to commit to 4 years of playing in a half empty pro stadium for a middling northeast program in a mostly southern, traditional basketball league with no "big game" rivalries. Combine that with below-par financial and administrative commitment and you're going to struggle to get enough good players to play for your program.

It would take a visionary coach with an out-of-the-box approach to make Pitt a factor in the current college football environment. Narduzzi has some good qualities, but an innovative visionary he is not.
 
It comes down to the simple fact that he doesn't have much of a product to sell. A lot of posters are unwilling to admit that, but it's undeniable.

The fact that Pitt is a good school, that it has a rich--but remote--football tradition, and that it has continued to produce the occasional NFL superstar is not sufficient attraction to bring the necessary quantity of high-level players to commit to 4 years of playing in a half empty pro stadium for a middling northeast program in a mostly southern, traditional basketball league with no "big game" rivalries. Combine that with below-par financial and administrative commitment and you're going to struggle to get enough good players to play for your program.

It would take a visionary coach with an out-of-the-box approach to make Pitt a factor in the current college football environment. Narduzzi has some good qualities, but an innovative visionary he is not.
Good thoughts. I do think the 'empty' stadium thing is overblown as i posted above. Subpar crowds aren't unique to us. But be careful also in claiming Pitt itself isn't spending. We actually do spend a good bit...too much, in fact, from Pitt's often coffers. Because we're unwilling to let somebody ELSE open THEIR coffers. We fear something that happened one time to SMU (manipulated by Texas and Texas Am), 40 years ago, that the NCAA itself said it would never institute again.

But if we're not going to cheat (and i know we won't), then we need the vision you mentioned. And we actually had something close to it in 2016, the most dynamic offense in America perhaps...but couldn't hold on to it. Which is a real shame.
 
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Just some thoughts:

1. He is not a great recruiter, but few are. He overestimated his chances for success when he arrived at Pitt.

A. Negative local press
B. Gym teachers who think that Pitt should offer a Schollie to their players when the big boys don’t.
C. The recruiting veracity of Frankie.
D. Lack of fan support

2. His overall staff is weak when it comes to recruiting. Salem, Powell and Partridge are good, but not great. Harley is useless and the other weak links are now gone. Sanders, Beatty, Collins, Borbely all need to step up.

3. Chryst was an underrated recruiter.

Ryan Lewis
James Conner
Tyler Boyd
Brian O’Neill
Adam Bisnowaty
Bam Bradley
Nicholas Grigsby
JP Holtz
Jester Weah
Dorian Johnson
Alex Bookser
Quadre Ollison
Avonte Maddox
Jordan Whitehead
Matt Galumbos
Darin Hall
Jordan Whitehead

All of the above committed to Chryst before Narduzzi took over. All of them have or will make it to a pro football camp. Yet we pissed and moaned about Chryst sucking as a recruiter
 
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Narduzzi's gift of gab alone can't possibly explain how Kentucky (not Bama, not Georgia) could suddenly come in and take a guy that was basically in our pocket, within a two week period. Forces other than personality or yellow seats are involved when that happens. Losing someone to an elite place is one thing. Not to basically an equal.
 
Serious question here: I don't see all his pressers and TV interviews because I live out of town. But, in the limited number of times that I have, he seems very enthusiastic as well as someone who can relate to his players and young people. His appearance in Nate Peterman's football trick shots video was neat. He seems far more genuine than the carnival barker from State College.

So why does someone who seems to love his job and has sufficient enthusiasm struggle to land quality players in significant numbers?

I think there are multiple reason's PN has struggled to recruit as of late. I do think he had two pretty solid classes in his first two full recruiting cycles.
1. He isn't a great recruiter. This one is obvious but some guys are good at selling. DW didn't have any trouble bringing in highly rated guys.
2. Pitt doesn't recruit itself.
3. Kentucky likely handed over some cash, lots of schools do. I don't think Pitt is, but I do think they likely did under DW.
4 and the biggest reason in my opinion. He has not assembled a staff with recruiting being a priority.
DW had hafley who by all accounts was a pretty average coach but he was kept around because he was a great recruiter. DW also made recruiting a priority when hiring assistants. the results of him having good recruiting assistants and being a good salesman himself was probably the most talented teams at Pitt since the 80's. Without changing anything other assistants Pitt could probably jump from around 40 to 25 to 30. But for some reason PN doesn't seem to regard being able to recruit THE PRIMARY JOB skill for assistants. If I was PN I would have a great recruiter at DC(PN runs the D anyhow), LB,RB and WR coaches. Recruiting would be the most important thing that those coaches are able to do and actual coaching would be 2nd. I just thing PN doesn't prioritize it that way and thats fine its his ass on the line if the team doesn't win.
 
He won’t be around much longer but it is what it is,he got to the point where he doesn’t care about recruiting and just offering random kids
 
Just some thoughts:

1. He is not a great recruiter, but few are. He overestimated his chances for success when he arrived at Pitt.

A. Negative local press
B. Gym teachers who think that Pitt should offer a Schollie to their players when the big boys don’t.
C. The recruiting veracity of Frankie.
D. Lack of fan support

2. His overall staff is weak when it comes to recruiting. Salem, Powell and Partridge are good, but not great. Harley is useless and the other weak links are now gone. Sanders, Beatty, Collins, Borbely all need to step up.

3. Chryst was an underrated recruiter.

Ryan Lewis
James Conner
Tyler Boyd
Brian O’Neill
Adam Bisnowaty
Bam Bradley
Nicholas Grigsby
JP Holtz
Jester Weah
Dorian Johnson
Alex Bookser
Quadre Ollison
Avonte Maddox
Jordan Whitehead
Matt Galumbos
Darin Hall
Jordan Whitehead

All of the above committed to Chryst before Narduzzi took over. All of them have or will make it to a pro football camp. Yet we pissed and moaned about Chryst sucking as a recruiter
Or it's a sign that Pitt is offering up even less to recruits than even the meager offerings of last decade? There's no way Paul Chryst had something Pat Narduzzi doesn't, in terms of recruiting acumen. And our crowds weren't any better for Chryst than they are now. It may make my case better than anything else: It's more than the head coach or yellow seats.

Hey sure, get a schlub like Chryst and replace Narduzzi, if a guy with no energy and even less dynamism in game plans is the magic pill.

Honestly, i'm not trying to be snarky. Chryst is a good guy and good coach. Narduzzi is too. The point is, the coach really doesn't seem to matter. Especially now. Things seem incredibly more cynical and compartmentalized than even 6-8 years ago now. I really don't know what Pitt can even do about it at this point.
 
Just some thoughts:

1. He is not a great recruiter, but few are. He overestimated his chances for success when he arrived at Pitt.

A. Negative local press
B. Gym teachers who think that Pitt should offer a Schollie to their players when the big boys don’t.
C. The recruiting veracity of Frankie.
D. Lack of fan support

2. His overall staff is weak when it comes to recruiting. Salem, Powell and Partridge are good, but not great. Harley is useless and the other weak links are now gone. Sanders, Beatty, Collins, Borbely all need to step up.

3. Chryst was an underrated recruiter.

Ryan Lewis
James Conner
Tyler Boyd
Brian O’Neill
Adam Bisnowaty
Bam Bradley
Nicholas Grigsby
JP Holtz
Jester Weah
Dorian Johnson
Alex Bookser
Quadre Ollison
Avonte Maddox
Jordan Whitehead
Matt Galumbos
Darin Hall
Jordan Whitehead

All of the above committed to Chryst before Narduzzi took over. All of them have or will make it to a pro football camp. Yet we pissed and moaned about Chryst sucking as a recruiter
A big factor in Chryst’s recruiting success was PS going through their Rape Scandal. A lot of negative press and uncertainty for them during that time period.
 
People cite Wanny. I honestly don't think he'd be as successful here now. I think the better recruits he got could be more easily swayed to us by personality then, they would overlook our foibles and could be rallied by a big win (the 13-9 game etc.) to sign up to lift a hardscrabble program up.

Today, even though his time wasn't all that long ago, I think they're too cynical. The best, and sometimes even the next level down, want assured successful programs (and all that comes with it, above or below the table). They'll sit 4 years if it comes to that, then grad transfer. That's a big deal too,btw... the grad transfer and more relaxed transfer standards.

I bet Wanny would struggle just as much at Pitt today as Duz, if not more.
 
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I also think this isn't all on the current staff or the fan attendance. A lot happened after DW that has really hurt Pitt with local recruits. If you compare recruiting results of PN to say DW, the biggest difference is DW was getting a lot of the local guys where as PN isn't landing hardly any of them. Their recruiting from outside of the area isn't that different. I think the disaster after DW happened when a lot of these recruits were forming their first impressions of Pitt.
 
A big factor in Chryst’s recruiting success was PS going through their Rape Scandal. A lot of negative press and uncertainty for them during that time period.

This is very true. However...

1. Chryst was able to overcome the lack of support from smiley and the administration, something that Narduzzi doesn’t have to deal with.

2. Most of the players that Chryst landed were not on the PSU radar.
 
People cite Wanny. I honestly don't think he'd be as successful here now. I think the better recruits he got could be more easily swayed to us by personality then, they would overlook our foibles and could be rallied by a big win (the 13-9 game etc.) to sign up to lift a hardscrabble program up.

Today, even though it isn't all that long ago, they're too cynical. The best, and sometimes even the next level down, want assured successful programs (and all that comes with it, above or below the table). They'll sit 4 years if it comes to that, then grad transfer. I bet Wanny would struggle just as much at Pitt today as Duz, if not more.
explain how kentucky has recruited so well then? Or south carolina or even purdue this year. Good recruiters can land better recruits. Are they going to come to pitt and land top 10 classes? No way but they can land somewhere in the 20 to 30 range on years when they are adding 23 to 26 and in the late 30's when adding around 20. With good coaching and getting the right QB that's the difference between 9 and 10 win season's and 7 and 8.
 
A big factor in Chryst’s recruiting success was PS going through their Rape Scandal. A lot of negative press and uncertainty for them during that time period.
JP Holtz, Dorian Johnson
This is very true. However...

1. Chryst was able to overcome the lack of support from smiley and the administration, something that Narduzzi doesn’t have to deal with.

2. Most of the players that Chryst landed were not on the PSU radar.
But some of the key ones very much were. I believe Dorian Johnson and JP Holtz were likely to have gone to PSU if not for the scandal. Possibly Biz as well.
 
People who scoff at idea of payola or fake classes after seeing Cam Newton or Reggie Bush or UNC are a little baffling. It clearly occurs and usually right in the open these days.

What I don't get is the insistence, often from the same parties denying payola, that our "half empty" stadium is our biggest if not SOLE issue. All but the most select bluest of blood's rarely play to packed houses. When PSU was briefly sanctioned, they were getting maybe 75% or less to many games. Attendance is spotty everywhere. Especially if you aren't winning every week. It's the same everywhere: Fans go if the team wins, they don't go if the team doesnt. It's not a "lack of school spirit" bullshit thing. This is a BUSINESS. Fans are CUSTOMERS. Recruits, more accurately their handlers, aren't morons. They're savvy to this. "I'm not going to Pitt because their empty seats are yellow and Kentucky's empty seats are blue. " Really?

Kentucky drew over 60K to it’s conference home games last season and at least 47K to it’s non-conference home games.

I think their stadium holds a little over 60K. So they have way less empty blue seats than we have empty yellow seats...

Go Pitt.
 
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If bagmen are so prevalent, why hasn't someone blown the whistle on them?
I mean, there have had to be some double crosses somewhere, where someone was promised something and didn't get it? Why wouldn't they for spite squeal on that?

Also fired assistant coaches, or HC's, or AD's or HS coaches? So many people involved, but it's like the Mafia, or some top secret society. Or coaches/institutions that don't play that game. Why would they not demand federal investigations or NCAA or whatever if they're regularly getting screwed by this system?

I think the bag man crap is an overblown myth. It would have been exposed long ago for a lot of reasons if it was that widespread. Lots of BS and conjecture, but mostly legend, I suspect.
I dont know that I agree with you ... look at basketball for example. There was this supposed FBI investigation. Wire Taps. The landscape was gonna change - blah blah blah...nothing happened. Football has a million times the money. There is no bag man myth. It's covered up.
 
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Chryst was not a great recruiter. Take a look at the recruiting classes. He and his staff did a poor job on the defensive side. They did not sign hardly any DBs during his time and football was 500. The talent in the WPIAL is not as good and lack the numbers of recruits from years back so they have to go out-of state. There are other reasons and the lack of a college atmosphere in an half empty stadium does not help. Right now he has the best staff since hes started so maybe it will get better. Beatty is a good recruiter in Virginia. H2P!
 
Narduzzi doesn't have that salesman personality... he doesn't suck up well to 17yr old kids.
It's not a bad thing at all... but you do need to have a few good salesmen on the coaching staff.
This is it in a nut shell. Add to the fact that he hired a bunch of his friends in the beginning and we have what we have
 
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This is it in a nut shell. Add to the fact that he hired a bunch of his friends in the beginning and we have what we have

Narduzzi is a nice guy and probably does OK in a living room but in order to overcome the empty yellow seats, you need that "life of the party," type personality. Like a Wannstedt, James Franklin, somebody like that. Some people just have that natural ability. Narduzzi isnt bad but just isnt natural. He reminds me of a salesman in the real world that works his but off just to make enough money for his family to be ok while there's these other guys just straight up killing it and the only real difference are their personalities.
 
At the established blue bloods, i'd agree, they likely aren't as overt anymore. They're just taken care of in more subtle ways at those.

It's actually likely too late for a Pitt to suddenly amp up its cheating. It would be too obvious and abrupt. And our local media isn't complicit in the least, so they'd be all over it.

It would take a miracle...a stretch of several great seasons (not one fluke 11 or 12 win year) done solely on the ability to "coach up" our 2 and 3 stars, to bump up recruiting to a higher level without some kind of serious booster increases, though. A superlative QB needs to emerge in particular.

Probably like what Washington has done the last couple years, i'd say. They sort of emerged from the doldrums unpredictably and Ill just guess, perhaps naively, they did it semi- legit.

Even that might not be enough. We're likely trapped in Mediocre Groundhog day.
I don't know if UW cheats or not...but Peterson is really a good coach. They had a strong program under Don James...not much since. I'd say the Ducks may have hurt their recruiting.
 
Because hes not Dave Wannstedt

Who, other than an urban Meyer or Nick saban type is the only coach I can think of the can actually bring talent to this program when the joint is half empty every Saturday.
gee, I remember the other joint being half empty from the mid 70's to early 80's also...
 
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At recruiting dinners Duzz sits with his wife and spends most of his time staring at his cell phone. That isn't exactly a being great salesman. He needs to learn to be more personable.
 
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If bagmen are so prevalent, why hasn't someone blown the whistle on them?
I mean, there have had to be some double crosses somewhere, where someone was promised something and didn't get it? Why wouldn't they for spite squeal on that?

Also fired assistant coaches, or HC's, or AD's or HS coaches? So many people involved, but it's like the Mafia, or some top secret society. Or coaches/institutions that don't play that game. Why would they not demand federal investigations or NCAA or whatever if they're regularly getting screwed by this system?

I think the bag man crap is an overblown myth. It would have been exposed long ago for a lot of reasons if it was that widespread. Lots of BS and conjecture, but mostly legend, I suspect.
Who is going to rat someone out when they are involved in the scheme themselves?

And guys DO get caught. The Ole Miss coach that was calling prostitutes from his work phone. The benefits USC was giving to Reggie Bush. It just doesn't seem like a super-coordinated thing like the FBI case in basketball. Lots of small groups working on behalf of schools. When you get "double-crossed" you just take your lumps and recognize it is part of the business. One day a 4 star WR might take your $50K and sign with your rival but the shoe will be on the other foot at some point. Can't be too thin-skinned in that business.
 
We will never be able to get the 4/5* prospects consistently.

The key, IMO, is setting up a process in which the right guys for the system are scouted and recruited. Then development comes into play. There are a number of schools out there that are consistently competitive on a national level because they have perfected these types of systems - MSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, Washington, Northwestern, TCU. You rarely see these types of programs recruiting top 10-20 classes, but they consistently find and development prospects that correctly fit their scheme. It's almost like a college football version of Money-Ball/Billy Bean/A's.
 
Serious question here: I don't see all his pressers and TV interviews because I live out of town. But, in the limited number of times that I have, he seems very enthusiastic as well as someone who can relate to his players and young people. His appearance in Nate Peterman's football trick shots video was neat. He seems far more genuine than the carnival barker from State College.

So why does someone who seems to love his job and has sufficient enthusiasm struggle to land quality players in significant numbers?
What's he got to sell that 50 other similar programs don't have to sell. Pitt football hasn't been in the limelight for close to 30 years now. Do you think any of these recruits can relate to Dan Marino and Tony Dorsett?
 
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Most of you people don't know the first thing about selling anything. Selling is about listening, not talking. Nobody likes an obnoxious pushy car salesman.

Some of the most successful salespeople I've ever met were not high energy Type A personalities. Those guys too stubborn and never listen.

Life lesson for all of you. Learn to shut up and listen.
 
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I think Narduzzi has brought in some very good recruits. His real problem is that the bottom of his classes are bad. It's almost as if they target a few kids and blow the budget on them and hope to scrape by with the rest.

This is it in a nutshell.
 
Go watch his videos from year 1 and then watch the videos from this past year. Dramatic change in personality is my big difference.

He's gone from high eneregy and eager to beat down and annoyed with the process imo.
 
The 2018 composite talent rankings has Pitt as the 35th most talented team based on recruiting rankings. The 2015 Pitt had the 42nd most talented roster. By recruiting standards, Narduzzi has elevated the talent on Pitt's team.

Imo, the 2 primary headwinds that he has faced is 1. An idiotic OOC and 2. The lack of local talent. Chryst, Graham and Wanny all had easier routes to stack wins than Narduzzi; so far he's been more successful than the previous 2 guys.



Serious question here: I don't see all his pressers and TV interviews because I live out of town. But, in the limited number of times that I have, he seems very enthusiastic as well as someone who can relate to his players and young people. His appearance in Nate Peterman's football trick shots video was neat. He seems far more genuine than the carnival barker from State College.

So why does someone who seems to love his job and has sufficient enthusiasm struggle to land quality players in significant numbers?
 
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