WW2
- Thread starter BreakingPitt
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Research Starters: Worldwide Deaths in World War II | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans
See estimates for worldwide deaths, broken down by country, in World War II.
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Lots of very brave and heroic Americans gave their lives so that people like you could stay up late drunk posting on the internet. I’m sure they’d hope that one would be doing more with their life, but sacrificed regardless so that everyone could have that choice.
The last great generation.
The last great generation.
Truth bomb. The world would have been a much better place if the US stayed out of WW1 and the Germans won.
a very interesting topic. germans win, no crippling limitations to germany, no hitler, no holocaust. good ol USA most likely wouldnt have taken the title of the World's police and we are more of an isolated power. france and britain most likely would have paid dearly
Probably no communism in Russia as Germany would have likely intervened and set up a government "friendly" to the Kaiser. France and Britain would not "suffer". France would have lost some territory but both governments would be intact. I think you would see many of England's colonies gain independence quicker....India. There is a possibility that we would have avoided the Great depression as well.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
I think you're underselling how badly things were going for the monarchs in Europe and how most of the eastern empires were already in decline. Italy picked the winning side and still descended into fascism. I'm far from any sort of expert but it's very hard to imagine anything more than a break and eventual reopening of hostility.
The hall monitor strikes again.
I have never seen a person more concerned about what others do. You are the most pathetic person on here.
This. Russia was still going to go through a revolution to overthrow the vestiges of its feudalism, it just maybe would have been delayed, and given Russian history, was still going to descend into some sort of dictatorship/oligarchy with overt imperialistic ambitions. Communism was still going to be a major movement. Imperialistic nationalism and early 20th Century elitist racial theories were still going to be around. A victorious Germany would have been emboldened, likely to seek its own colonialist ambitions. Likely the time scale for another major conflict just gets pushed back where weapons are deadlier and the a-bomb is potentially available to more countries.
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They might still be fighting if we stayed out, but the big mistake was crippling Germany's economy, resulting in Hitler Inc. FDR & Truman were fools to give half of Europe to Uncle Joe.
You think Germany would let a tyrant like Stalin murder millions and starve the Ukranians? If anything, Germany would work to stabilize the Balkans, Caucuses, and Ukraine. The Ottoman empire would still exist (although weak) and work as proxy for the Germans in those areas. Austria-Hungary would have influence on the Balkans....not a lasting peace but something. Germany would move toward democratic kingdoms.
Essentially, you are looking at an early European Union.
Germany would still have been slugging it out in France and fighting British blockades for a while after the Russian Revolution had ended, they certainly wouldn't have been in position to fully invade the Soviet Union. Then even if Germany managed to win, you'd have an aggressive imperialist power gaining a large tract of Eastern Europe sitting on the doorstep of a hostile Russia under Stalin, with a growing Imperial power in Japan flanking the other side. Japan would have still had imperial ambitions and invaded China as well as the rest of Southeast Asia, where the US still likely had interests in the Philippines, American Samoa, and Guam (unless Germany takes them in WWI).
Germany and Japan still ally to take down Russia and split its territory. England and France ally with Russia to regain control after their humiliating defeat in WWI. There likely still would have been another major war in the area and this time Germany would have developed nuclear weapons in the 40s instead of the U.S. as many of our most important nuclear scientists fled Eastern Europe because of rising fascism in the 1930s.
The Great Depression likely would have happened regardless because it was an international event and the US non-involvement wouldn't have suddenly eliminated the debt and isolationism. Nations were leaving the gold standard, Britain halted much foreign capital expenditure, etc.
Then there is France. Does it descend into fascism like its neighbors in Italy and Spain? It would have been the defeated continental power saddled with an embarrassing loss and likely steep reparations. Near-Fascist parties grew in popularity in France during the 1930s, who is to say this wouldn't have been multiplied in the event of a loss in WWI?
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I don't think it would have played out anything like you are proposing, but interesting to imagine.
One thing England, France, US, and Germany would agree on is communism (in Russia) was bad. The European economy would still have been largely in tact and the "early" European union would have likely emerged. Japan would still mess around with China but no chance that Japan attacks the US without Germany in WW2. No chance. This would leave the US in a weaker economic position since we would have not loaned and sold France and England war goods in WW1. We would have also hurt our international influence on markets and the Great depression would have likely been more of a USA issue.
You do have an interesting theory on France moving toward facism like Spain.
Alternative histories are interesting but obviously impossible to predict how they would play out.
What I do know is that the allies in WW1 did a great job of causing WW2 by pissing off germany and Japan at with Versailles. It was a lesson well learned though as agree ww2 we focused on rebuilding both rather than punishment and now japan and Germany became two of our strongest allies.
What I do know is that the allies in WW1 did a great job of causing WW2 by pissing off germany and Japan at with Versailles. It was a lesson well learned though as agree ww2 we focused on rebuilding both rather than punishment and now japan and Germany became two of our strongest allies.
The German economy was in shambles before Hitler was in power. He was in jail I believe in the late 20s. The mishandling by the League of Nations thought they could destroy Germany.
If you look at how we handled Germany AND Japan after the war. They've solid citizens since then. the Marshall Plan, etc.
So Truman, JFK & LBJ needed to start wars with different people.
FDR & Truman were fools to give half of Europe to Uncle Joe...Tell that to the mothers and fathers and wives and children of the guys who would have to go up against the might of the Red Army a that time. For what? A freer Hungary or Poland? ...Hindsight on what happened in Eastern Europe after the fact is 20/20 and you got to give some leeway in thought to a nation that just lost 25 million people...
pittdan77
Athletic Director
The Ottoman Empire was so corrupt that it was going to fail regardless. I don't think Germany was going to be able to work with Russia simply because they didn't trust the Communists and were worried about their own upstart movements in that direction. Russia has always sought to project power to the west in order to buffer against the European powers that were on its doorstep. Same issue as today.
And if there was no worldwide Depression, Hitler probably never happens. His marketing of the entire financial situation being caused by foreign globalists helped his rise to power. It was a perfect storm. It was the sanctions PLUS the worldwide depression that created Hitler. Had there only been one of those 2, no one would have ever knew his name.
They jailed him in the 20S, so SOMEONE knew about him. We were stupid to crush Germany in 1918. Wilson was pretty sick at that time, I think. Bad decisions.
It's called the beer hall putch and he wasn't in jail for long. In fact while in jail he had free reign to pretty much do as he pleased. He held court with his sycophants most days and realized that in order for him to take control, he would have to use the levers or democracy, not a coup, to assume absolute power.
In hindsight, sure. But the Allies didnt know a worldwide Depression was coming. Without the Depression, post-WW1 Germany was 2008-2020 Greece after their austerity measures to receive bailouts. It sucks, yes, but its doable. Without the Depression happening, Germany would have recovered fine.
It’s sad to think we’re nearing a point where we won’t have anymore living WW2 vets. My wife has a grandfather who was one that was in D Day and we actually attended his 100th birthday party yesterday. He went to France as part of the 80th anniversary and the average age of the others he flew over with was 102, so he was actually on the younger end. My grandfather was a veteran also involved in D Day but sadly passed 8 years before I was born.
Of course, before Wilson and Congress decided to enter the war, the Germans were sinking American merchant ships in the north Atlantic, bombing munitions plants with terrorist agents here in America, and conspiring with Mexico to help Mexico regain the territories it lost during the Mexican-American war--Texas, New Mexico and Arizona. Google the "Zimmerman Telegram". Over 100 Americans were lost on the Lusitania. If Germany had been allowed to prevail, the new world order would not have included a seat at the table for the U.S. We would have had no leverage or allies to support us when the next inevitable world conflict broke out. Our military was outnumbered and weak at the time WW1 broke out. When it ended, we were a superpower.
History has shown over and over that economic and geopolitical isolationism doesn't work.The woulda shoulda couldas and speculation as to how things would have worked out for the world over the decades following WW1 if the US had stayed out and Germany had won is pure uneduicated guesswork.
History has shown over and over that economic and geopolitical isolationism doesn't work.The woulda shoulda couldas and speculation as to how things would have worked out for the world over the decades following WW1 if the US had stayed out and Germany had won is pure uneduicated guesswork.
Sir....are you saying my post is poppycock?
Nobody is saying that Germany was not bad. They tried to fight the entire world....twice!!! We are speculating that Europe may have avoided the horror of WW2 and communism may not have had the world wide influence it did after WW2 because of how the chips would have fell after WW1.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
Germany did austerity and that was as much a factor as anything else to cause the rise of radicalism. Bailouts happen now because lessons were learned.
I'm saying once things were settled with Germany as the world's new unquestioned superpower the future security and status of the US would be very much in doubt. I'm also saying that many posters in this thread seem to either be ignorant of the fact that before we entered the war Germany was already committing overt hostile acts against the USA, or they are glossing over that reality.
I think your premise that all that strife and communism would have been avoided is overly simplistic and does not take into account the realities and geopolitics of that time in history. The next major world conflict would be inevitable, especially with the rest of the world thinking the US was weak and neutral. And we would have been weak and neutral, as WW1 forced us to build our military from a light force to a massive one and to equip it arm ourselves to be a superpower. Anyone who knows anything abnout Czarist Russia knows that Russia would have become communist no matter what, and would have attempted to spread communism anywhere it could force it no matter what.
Imagine that tomorrow Russia shot down an airliner that had 100 US citizens on it, many of whom were prominent members of society. In the same week it goes public that we intercepted a Russian message offering the Canadian government chunks of US territory in exchange for Canada's support against the US and for Russia's efforts to annex Ukraine and other Eastern countries.
Would you be of the mind that we should let it pass and stay out if it with no retaliation? Would any American? How would a president that did not respond forcefully be perceived by his country? Or by the world?
Yeah, it's hard to say there is any way the United States could have come out better than it did had it not entered the war. There are so many scenarios where the US enters the mid-century far weaker than what happened in reality. Another scenario is that the US (or North American) population is the only nation that suffers from the Spanish Flu outbreak. Most historians and scientists agree that it originated in the United States and was spread globally through our troops. Or maybe it doesn't have the conditions to even begin.
You need to watch "The Man in the High Castle" on Prime Video, very interesting as far as what might have happened if the Nazis won WW2. The interesting things are the societal stuff.
Communism not taking root is not an overly simplistic notion. In fact, England, Germany, France, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire, Poland, Finland, and the Balkans would be United against communism as it would have threatened their own power. Even the Us would get behind supporting the Czar.
Another post mentioned that France would probably be in turmoil if they lost WW1 to the Germans. France would likely be the bad actor in Europe going forward.
You do realize that the American Merchant ships were carrying munitions to England. The Lusitania, an English- flagged vessel was carrying 173 tons of shells. The Germans warned that the ship would be targeted, and it was torpedoed and sunk with the loss of 1200 lives, including 128 Americans. Sort of reminds one of Hamas's use of human shields, no? Everyone believes that they're the good guys.
.....as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, war without end, Amen
The Lusitania wasn't a merchant ship, it was a passenger ship. In 1982, a salvage dive did recover about 800 brass fuses for six inch shells. There has never been any evidence that it was carrying anything more military grade than that, including the purported 173 tons of "shells," which was out of a 44,000 ton displacement, and was actually mostly declared, small "non-military" grade munitions according to US inspections of the ship. The Germans also tried to justify its targeting by saying it was carrying Canadian troops and was armed, which was definitively false. Regardless, it was a clearly a mistake to target by the Germans, although they never admitted as such, and they wouldn't have had any interest in pushing the US into entering the war if they had known it would have been such a catalyst.
Quite a bit different than a group of non-uniformed terrorists with an avowed goal to annihilate the existence of a country while hiding civilian hostages, soldiers, and weapons purposefully in civilian populations and infrastructure with known, stated goals to increase their own civilian casualties. So no, doesn't remind me of Hamas at all.
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The US was sending Britain and France food, supplies, and munitions before entering the war. The US also supplied a credit line (the largest ever at the time) to help fund the war against the Germans. The Germans tried to work with the US to stop this obvious breach of "neutrality". They wanted to keep the US neutral and even pledged not to sink US vessels. The Lusitania (sp ) was a British flagged ship. The US was not an innocent player in all this.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
To slide this another direction, the wars caused some pretty radical changes in American society. Of course there was the temperance movement but before that was women's suffrage. Later, child labor laws and the move towards a more family centric way of living.
