Bucs Worth 900M
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I can see floating this bullshitt narrative whenever they stunk - which was forever - but they've made the playoffs last two years. Bitching about their refusal to pay for talent when they've spent enough money and had enough talent to make the postseason in consecutive seasons doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Walker is as good as gone. If he was going to be staying in Pittsburgh he would have signed a contract extension by now. Not resigning Walker will be quite fine for the Pirates, they have Kang who if pans out will be a solid everyday second baseman for the Pirates. To go with that they have a 2nd basemen named Alen Hanson in AA who is from the Dominican and is only 21. Both of these guys should be able to produce at the same level at 1/4th the price of Walker during his first free agent year when he's 31.
Cutch on the other hand is completely different story. He will be able to name his price when he hits the market and only a few teams will be able to afford what he's looking for.
Cutch on the other hand is completely different story. He will be able to name his price when he hits the market and only a few teams will be able to afford what he's looking for.
Perhaps you didn't read the article. It also states the Bucs were the 5th most profitable team @44.5 or so M.
I understand the difference between cash flow and market value but the team has not moved on from the 1st round of the playoffs since conversion vans were popular.
I understand the difference between cash flow and market value but the team has not moved on from the 1st round of the playoffs since conversion vans were popular.
Well..............they got perhaps the most powerful hitter in baseball at 1B if he makes contact and gets his head screwed on (which looks like it is) and a kid who last year was rated amongst the top 5 prospects in baseball in RF.
So.......this is an epic fail.
This post was edited on 3/26 7:59 AM by recruitsreadtheseboards
It amazes me how some people, no matter how well a team does, continually move the bitch bar to suit the bitch. Wild cards should be division titles, division titles should be pennant and WS, tourney appearances should be sweet sixteens, sweet sixteens should be elite 8's and final four. It gives me a good chuckle. Just enjoy the success!!!
Bingo!!!!!
NUTTING is putting 40 plus very large cold cash in his pocket...while keeping payroll just around 27th at a time when with some better player s, and a little less profit , we could be looking at a championship team
But instead the boys in the desert have the Bucs at 83.5 wins...and that ain't even playoffs
Madden says it best to the yinz e rs.....
NUTTING has you thinking about his money like it was yours, while making your money his.
Mark Madden's narrative (Doc, there's that term again) against the Pirates and Nutting is old and tired and wrong. The fact that he is hanging onto it and laughing at "yinzers" shows that his reported 166 IQ might actually be missing a decimal point.
It is......STUPID. So what, the Pirates should go out and offer a Josh Hamilton contract, just to fill out the payroll? They tried to give Russell Martin a ridiculous contract, the Blue Jays out ridiculoused them.. How many playoff games have they played in the past decade?
Look, the roster is good, the farm system better, they are supposed to win (which they have made two straight post seasons and are now among the favorites this year) and we are still bitching about the payroll? Give them credit that they somehow locked up studs like McCutcheron and Marte to long term club friendly contracts. It is when the Garrit Cole's start approaching Free Agency then it will get interesting.
It is a stupid, tired argument. The Pirates have made sound baseball decisions. And Mark Madden wants to make fun of them? I wish his (and mine) favorite team the Penguins could make such prudent and sharp draft choices and decisions.
Nobody is talking about Josh Hamilton contracts...how about getting half a clue.
But the payroll could be and should be higher to take a run as this team's core matures.
Some baseball analyst can say whatever he wants because, well they can and that is what they do....But where the money talks...the pirates aren't winning Jacksquat
Blah b l ah blah farm system , Dominican, Pirate City....They need help at the Bigs and that costs more money than NUTTING is willing to spend....He wants that 40large...in his right pocket.
And Maddem is spot on.
But the payroll could be and should be higher to take a run as this team's core matures.
Some baseball analyst can say whatever he wants because, well they can and that is what they do....But where the money talks...the pirates aren't winning Jacksquat
Blah b l ah blah farm system , Dominican, Pirate City....They need help at the Bigs and that costs more money than NUTTING is willing to spend....He wants that 40large...in his right pocket.
And Maddem is spot on.
The 'cheap' rants are tired and dated. The current economics of baseball with NEVER allow the Pirates to compete in the top half of payrolls. However, they are competing very well where the playing field is more even. Prior to MLB rule changes, the Pirates spent more than ANY club in the draft, and the minor league system has become among the deepest in the game to combat the inevitable turnover of homegrown stars through MLB free agency each year. They also have a strong foothold in Latin American amateur player relations and development. Marte and Polonco are not the last stars we will see from those efforts in future years.
There is always controversy over the Forbes valuations and income projections, so take them with a grain of salt. Let's just say they did net $40M (~4%) in operating margin last year. That DOES NOT INDICATE THAT NUTTING AND OTHER SHAREHOLDERS POCKETED $40M!!! Re-investment of excess profits are common and they are often not paid out in full to shareholders. This allows for capital improvements (see the recent PNC Park, Dominican academy, and Bradenton/minor league facility upgrades) and market growth fund investments are made to build future financial flexibility. Their actual walk-away dividend payout is likely a shadow of the full operating margin.
Go Bucs and H2P!
There is always controversy over the Forbes valuations and income projections, so take them with a grain of salt. Let's just say they did net $40M (~4%) in operating margin last year. That DOES NOT INDICATE THAT NUTTING AND OTHER SHAREHOLDERS POCKETED $40M!!! Re-investment of excess profits are common and they are often not paid out in full to shareholders. This allows for capital improvements (see the recent PNC Park, Dominican academy, and Bradenton/minor league facility upgrades) and market growth fund investments are made to build future financial flexibility. Their actual walk-away dividend payout is likely a shadow of the full operating margin.
Go Bucs and H2P!
So...what should they do? Just spend more money on Jordy Mercer, just to make you feel better? Should they give Garrit Cole $10 Million a year, just to shut up Mark Madden, even though they control him for at least 3 more years after this year. Should they pay Pedro $150 million over 10 years, just because they can? Would you? I wouldn't. He has more questions than answers. Should they have given Max Sherzer that contract? That is insane for pitchers. I wouldn't.
Jon Lester is 31, so should they have given him $155 million over 6 years like the Cubs? Especially with Taillon, Kingham and Glasnow on the horizon? Who were they supposed to spend it on? It makes sense to move Pedro to 1B, so there was no 1B worth more than that gamble. Harrison just had an MVP candidate season at 3B. Walker and Mercer are good 2B and SS. The outfield is stacked. Maybe another starting pitcher, but not some of the insane numbers.
They have been a team adding at the trade deadline and yes, "Pirate City" and the "Dominican" is a much more prudent way to spend money than just wily nily on free agents. How did these big spending sprees work out for the Angels and Phillies? Mets?
Mark Madden is an idiot. Okay.
The payroll truthers are dead wrong on this topic, and have been for years.
There is loose, at best, correlation between payroll and wins. There's nothing close to causation.
Spending more, particularly for a team like the Pirates, diminishes your margin for error greatly. The reason the Phillies are screwed right now would happen to the Pirates after 1 or 2 bad signings.
Their largest revenue stream is from their gain on profit sharing. The TV deal is the worst in the majors, their ticket revenue is nearly dead last, and their media rights (which is the #1 most closely linked revenue stream to payroll) is always in the bottom 5.
Turning a $44.5MM profit and turning a $44.5MM profit due to the 3rd largest gain on revenue sharing in all of baseball are 2 completely different things.
This post was edited on 3/26 2:06 PM by Pittbaseball11
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There is loose, at best, correlation between payroll and wins. There's nothing close to causation.
Spending more, particularly for a team like the Pirates, diminishes your margin for error greatly. The reason the Phillies are screwed right now would happen to the Pirates after 1 or 2 bad signings.
Their largest revenue stream is from their gain on profit sharing. The TV deal is the worst in the majors, their ticket revenue is nearly dead last, and their media rights (which is the #1 most closely linked revenue stream to payroll) is always in the bottom 5.
Turning a $44.5MM profit and turning a $44.5MM profit due to the 3rd largest gain on revenue sharing in all of baseball are 2 completely different things.
This post was edited on 3/26 2:06 PM by Pittbaseball11
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I don't know what they should do I'm not in baseball
Are you?
But it seems they could easily afford 15 to 20 more than where they are now but they simply don't..
Two yrs ago they won what, 94?
Last year they left 1st and Right wide open because they wouldn't spend and they won 88?
This year they have big questions at 1st RF and catcher, at a minimum, and have by some accounts projections of not winning 84.
Look I'm a fan, I'll go as often as I can but they should have filled in gaps and that means getting off their solid pocketcash target and they won't.....
This post was edited on 3/26 2:27 PM by paulbl99
Are you?
But it seems they could easily afford 15 to 20 more than where they are now but they simply don't..
Two yrs ago they won what, 94?
Last year they left 1st and Right wide open because they wouldn't spend and they won 88?
This year they have big questions at 1st RF and catcher, at a minimum, and have by some accounts projections of not winning 84.
Look I'm a fan, I'll go as often as I can but they should have filled in gaps and that means getting off their solid pocketcash target and they won't.....
This post was edited on 3/26 2:27 PM by paulbl99
1. You don't block Polanco.
2. The only viable 1B option in the previous was James Loney. Who is not good.
3. They made about the best as they could out of the catching situation by getting Cervelli, who Baseball Prospectus has consistently rated as a superior pitch framer to Russell Martin. Chris Stewart as well.
There is no replacing Russell Martin's offense, and included in that is re-signing Russell Martin. Last year was a fluke season for him and highly unlikely to be repeated, as his peripiherals were totally out of line with his career averages despite no underlying changes.
I don't see any reason for them to sign mediocre players like James Loney and Marlon Byrd to untenable contracts, nor do I think they should spend absurdly on a 31 year old catcher coming off a career year.
They've been mentioned as one of the model franchises in baseball and are projected by several of the major systems to win the NL Central this year. Buster Olney (for those who hate numbers) picked them to win the World Series.
As usual, Pittsburgh fails to appreciate their teams for what they are, instead choosing to focus on fabricated non-issues for the sake of......I've yet to be able to figure it out.
2. The only viable 1B option in the previous was James Loney. Who is not good.
3. They made about the best as they could out of the catching situation by getting Cervelli, who Baseball Prospectus has consistently rated as a superior pitch framer to Russell Martin. Chris Stewart as well.
There is no replacing Russell Martin's offense, and included in that is re-signing Russell Martin. Last year was a fluke season for him and highly unlikely to be repeated, as his peripiherals were totally out of line with his career averages despite no underlying changes.
I don't see any reason for them to sign mediocre players like James Loney and Marlon Byrd to untenable contracts, nor do I think they should spend absurdly on a 31 year old catcher coming off a career year.
They've been mentioned as one of the model franchises in baseball and are projected by several of the major systems to win the NL Central this year. Buster Olney (for those who hate numbers) picked them to win the World Series.
As usual, Pittsburgh fails to appreciate their teams for what they are, instead choosing to focus on fabricated non-issues for the sake of......I've yet to be able to figure it out.
You don't block Polanco...
Even if he can't hit mlb pitching again.
YEAH frame those pitches...from the hot tub.
Olney can pick them as Champs...Vegas says 83.5; I'd go with the boys in the desert, which if they are around that in wins means another year over year drop and no post season.
I think Giants ,Redbirds and some other recent champs says you do have to spend to win it all.. and if they are the model you claim they could figure out how to bump the payroll wisely.
Pedro Walker Cole will all be gone in a couple several years, I'm not even convinced you'll see Cutch here when he starts making market
...take a chance now to win it...But no
Gotta put that cash in NUTTING s pocket.
Even if he can't hit mlb pitching again.
YEAH frame those pitches...from the hot tub.
Olney can pick them as Champs...Vegas says 83.5; I'd go with the boys in the desert, which if they are around that in wins means another year over year drop and no post season.
I think Giants ,Redbirds and some other recent champs says you do have to spend to win it all.. and if they are the model you claim they could figure out how to bump the payroll wisely.
Pedro Walker Cole will all be gone in a couple several years, I'm not even convinced you'll see Cutch here when he starts making market
...take a chance now to win it...But no
Gotta put that cash in NUTTING s pocket.
The payroll truthers will be out in full force whenever Walker isn't offered a contract.
Its funny though. The stillers have been hampered with bad contracts for old farts for almost half a decade now. The Pens have old fart Kunitz, Dupuis, and Scuderi locked in multi year deals. I dont see the allure in keeping walker (or martin) around to be an old fart that makes too much money and can't play.
Its funny though. The stillers have been hampered with bad contracts for old farts for almost half a decade now. The Pens have old fart Kunitz, Dupuis, and Scuderi locked in multi year deals. I dont see the allure in keeping walker (or martin) around to be an old fart that makes too much money and can't play.
I'm pretty sure they are figuring out how to bump payroll wisely.....it's called offering arbitration to your good players and extending great young players early with escalating salaries and team options.
People can say what they want about Polanco, he's not a guy you block. Especially not with the mediocre options available in RF.
I care more about the projection systems because that's how championships are won. Obviously luck plays a massive role in all sports, with baseball probably being the most "luck" based of all the major professional sports, but putting the best team out on the field on paper has proven to be the strongest predictor of success out there.
I would hope that Pedro, Walker and Cole are gone in a few years. Unless Cole takes a Chris Archer type of deal, you don't extend pitchers as a small market club. Alvarez and Walker will be in their 30's by the time they're no longer under team control.
I love Cutch, but there's no way I'd want them to pay him $20MM+ per year into his 30's. That's bad roster management.
If/when those guys walk, it will be the correct decision. The trick will be having replacements available.
Championships are won by teams willing to spend more than NUTTING has....
You want to go by metrics alone and worry about Nuttings wallet that is fine.
(And it is also why we had bums at first last year...bums)
But chances are about 50 50 someone with less wealth than NUTTING and a far smaller personal cash flow per year from mlb is going to win it all..because they took the chances you have to take to get there...and that costs money.
We'll see who s right at year's end and I honestly and truly hope it is Olney.
But too too many gaps here to go beyond 84 wins...jmo
You want to go by metrics alone and worry about Nuttings wallet that is fine.
(And it is also why we had bums at first last year...bums)
But chances are about 50 50 someone with less wealth than NUTTING and a far smaller personal cash flow per year from mlb is going to win it all..because they took the chances you have to take to get there...and that costs money.
We'll see who s right at year's end and I honestly and truly hope it is Olney.
But too too many gaps here to go beyond 84 wins...jmo
I mean, considering there are fewer small market teams who are competitive/in a mature phase in any given year and that the Pirates are relatively early into their contention window, you aren't exactly going out on a limb with that.
It's baseball so, quite literally, nothing will surprise me that occurs this year, but the fact remains that the Pirates' ultimate win/loss record won't be tied to payroll. And that, no matter what, this is a really well constructed roster with a solidly laid foundation under it.
It's baseball so, quite literally, nothing will surprise me that occurs this year, but the fact remains that the Pirates' ultimate win/loss record won't be tied to payroll. And that, no matter what, this is a really well constructed roster with a solidly laid foundation under it.
By solid foundation I guess you mean minor leagues...that's very hard to project though.
But they seem to do a good job there.
Being able to win a championship...is related to payroll, at least beyond what Pittsburgh is willing to spend. There probably are exceptions. Maybe
Burnett, Morten, Josh, Polanco , Pedro ,Servelli...starters all and questionable.
You could be looking at a disaster if these guys don't pick it up..or in the case of Josh drop off too far. And as a numbers guy you must have him dropping off
The best thing they have going for them is 1 6 2....that is such a grind it wears down even the best..so who knows
I can't wait till Monday the 6th and I'Ll be rooting all the way...stuck with the team when the mascot was a Dealer....
But you have come up with nothing to convince me this team couldn't be better....by buying a few more players
But they seem to do a good job there.
Being able to win a championship...is related to payroll, at least beyond what Pittsburgh is willing to spend. There probably are exceptions. Maybe
Burnett, Morten, Josh, Polanco , Pedro ,Servelli...starters all and questionable.
You could be looking at a disaster if these guys don't pick it up..or in the case of Josh drop off too far. And as a numbers guy you must have him dropping off
The best thing they have going for them is 1 6 2....that is such a grind it wears down even the best..so who knows
I can't wait till Monday the 6th and I'Ll be rooting all the way...stuck with the team when the mascot was a Dealer....
But you have come up with nothing to convince me this team couldn't be better....by buying a few more players
I have yet to see anybody who bitches about payroll give feasible options to add. Francisco Liriano was ranked as a top 10 free agent and they got him.
Teams are too smart these days that it's not possible to build through free agency....at least not anything sustainable (the RedSox a couple years back hit lightning in a bottle with a ton of mediocre players having career years but they fell back off last year).
You don't see any good, young players hitting free agency anymore now that teams understand the value of control and arbitration years. They're all old, expensive, past their prime, and not worth tying up a roster slot with. As a small market team, the Pirates can't afford to have a bad, unmovable contract on their books. Having 2 would be even worse. Look at where the Reds and Brewers are right now. They depleted their farm systems, they have a bunch of older players on bad contracts, and they have so much payroll tied up in these guys that they can't just cut them and go replace them.
Teams are too smart these days that it's not possible to build through free agency....at least not anything sustainable (the RedSox a couple years back hit lightning in a bottle with a ton of mediocre players having career years but they fell back off last year).
You don't see any good, young players hitting free agency anymore now that teams understand the value of control and arbitration years. They're all old, expensive, past their prime, and not worth tying up a roster slot with. As a small market team, the Pirates can't afford to have a bad, unmovable contract on their books. Having 2 would be even worse. Look at where the Reds and Brewers are right now. They depleted their farm systems, they have a bunch of older players on bad contracts, and they have so much payroll tied up in these guys that they can't just cut them and go replace them.
Wouldn't be a bit surprised if Cincy and Mil both pass Pgh this year in wins.
Bad example...
If they can't take chance on players because of possibly failing, like ultimate winners do , then fine...take your 85 wins and Nuttings millions by the truckload every year and be satisfied.
They could be doing better..which is why they are pegged at 83 wins by the people willing to pay for it...not just yap about it thru their talking heads.
Bad example...
If they can't take chance on players because of possibly failing, like ultimate winners do , then fine...take your 85 wins and Nuttings millions by the truckload every year and be satisfied.
They could be doing better..which is why they are pegged at 83 wins by the people willing to pay for it...not just yap about it thru their talking heads.
Okay well now we're passing into the non-existent intangible "having balls/guts makes winners" portion of the conversation so it's effectively over at this point.
Hope the tin foil hat doesn't get too itchy during the summer heat.
Hope the tin foil hat doesn't get too itchy during the summer heat.
No, it's because you have proposed no solutions to your perceived problem which is, apparently, an answer to any and all ills that may befall the Pirates.
Pittsburghers want the team to spend more, but their solution to spending more is to try to get Alex Rios, re-sign Marlon Byrd, or overpay for AJ Burnett.
That's not doing more. That's flushing money down the toilet and tying your hands behind your back in the process.
You had no reason to go to the insults...none.
I'm telling you NUTTING is and has been putting more money in his pocket than nearly every owner in baseball and I am saying it is time to step up to the plate and spend more money right now.
Not every year not all on one person but more could be done.
It is done by owners willing to go with less cash flow
I don't know why that pushes you to insults...when I agree with most of what you say in the long run and appreciate your knowledge.
But this team could be should be better suited to make a run THIS year and I don't see it save for the Pirates refusing to let go of some money.
That's just what I believe.....
I'm telling you NUTTING is and has been putting more money in his pocket than nearly every owner in baseball and I am saying it is time to step up to the plate and spend more money right now.
Not every year not all on one person but more could be done.
It is done by owners willing to go with less cash flow
I don't know why that pushes you to insults...when I agree with most of what you say in the long run and appreciate your knowledge.
But this team could be should be better suited to make a run THIS year and I don't see it save for the Pirates refusing to let go of some money.
That's just what I believe.....
There. Was. Nobody. To. Spend. Money. On.
Seriously. Baseball isn't like it was in the steroid era. Guys decline sharply once they hit 30 and teams are a lot smarter now. They don't let guys walk until they hit at least their age 30 season, by and large. The only guys who were available this offseason that are under 30 are pitchers (bad investments) and Pablo Sandoval who has big time weight concerns. Spending money and winning has no real correlation anymore. It's just not an issue.
didn't we just spend like 6 million dollars to have the rights to sign some jackass south Korean who is 1 for 25 in the minors, below average fielder and has had success only at a league compareable to single A ball, in ballparks the size of little league fields in Williamsport?? Spending money is not the answer, spending money wisely is..
If the Pirates agreed to take Ryan Howard and all of his contract, the Phillies would take literally anything for him. I say they do that, pay him $25 mill to OPS about .680. That'd jack up the payroll, which would immediately improve the team, right?
The main problem I have with the payroll raising advocates is one that's seen in this thread: people rarely give good examples of who the money should be spent on. At least if people advocated overpaying for Russell Martin, I'd have an idea of where the money should be spent.
The main problem I have with the payroll raising advocates is one that's seen in this thread: people rarely give good examples of who the money should be spent on. At least if people advocated overpaying for Russell Martin, I'd have an idea of where the money should be spent.
It's not expensive to build a winner if you spend efficiently. That's what my point is. The list I posted isn't loaded with good players, so tying up payroll in players of that ilk is a bad way to spend money and simultaneously add wins.
If you draft and develop your own players, you can put better players on the field for pennies on the dollar compared to what the Tigers, Angels, Rangers, or Phillies do.
This post was edited on 3/26 6:32 PM by Pittbaseball11
If you draft and develop your own players, you can put better players on the field for pennies on the dollar compared to what the Tigers, Angels, Rangers, or Phillies do.
This post was edited on 3/26 6:32 PM by Pittbaseball11
Yeah it is expensive if you want a Ring....or are you talking about 84 85 wins , in which case you are right....
Maybe
The 4 teams in the NL playoffs last season after the WC...were the low salary do it by the metrics only.....I forget them . can you remind us??
Maybe
The 4 teams in the NL playoffs last season after the WC...were the low salary do it by the metrics only.....I forget them . can you remind us??
No. They haven't been wrong for years. They are wrong now. Some of the stunts they did in prior years were absolutely ridiculous and almost worthy of a Major League sequel they were so bad and cheap. The Pirates were largely the worst owned franchise in sports for about 15 of the last 20+ years.
I will give Bob Nutting credit. He has done mostly good by the baseball team. How many teams have been to the post season the past two years? How many franchises have been to the postseason the past 2 years and still have one of the top 5-6 farm systems in baseball? That's pretty select company.
But back then, the ridiculous drafts, the giving away Schmidt and Ramirex, the lack of development in Latin America, the drafting of Bryan Bullington #1 overall, etc.....those aren't mirages.
St. Louis - Heavily numbers based, built from within
LA Dodgers - Less numbers based last year (heavily numbers based now)
Nationals - Heavily numbers based, built from within
San Francisco - Less defined, a bit more of a mix
I would expect the Pirates' payroll to get up to around $110-115MM in 2017 and 2018. They will be at about the same stage as the Cardinals are currently, and the Cards' opening day payroll last year was $111MM.
LA Dodgers - Less numbers based last year (heavily numbers based now)
Nationals - Heavily numbers based, built from within
San Francisco - Less defined, a bit more of a mix
I would expect the Pirates' payroll to get up to around $110-115MM in 2017 and 2018. They will be at about the same stage as the Cardinals are currently, and the Cards' opening day payroll last year was $111MM.
