Yes, And No. He was screwed also by ownership changing and what direction where they headed. Still some of the moves were indefensible. Really. But yes, this is not all on Hextall. Rutherford and even Mario Lemieux has some responsibility for this.
OT: Pens
- Thread starter mike 301
- Start date
Likely fire Sullivan and bring in some new guy they won’t listen to, then play the same system as always, until Geno/Tanger/Sid finally want to break up the old gang
Burke.and Hextall should go. Often, a new GM keeps the old coach for a year to evaluate. If the new GM decides to bring in a new coach immediately, I'm okay with that as well. Sullivan can only coach one way, and an old team that is expected to win a track meet every night while playing marginal defense because everyone is to run first, defend last cannot succeed.
The key, which isn't simple, is to find a guy that makes smart decisions and trades. Find that GM and things will improve markedly. I do know that they can't do much worse in hiring a GM, so they can only go up from here
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Everybody is into the "who's fault" this is, with the bulk of it on Ron Hextall. But I am going to give you two names, especially one, that has alot of blood on their hands. And that is Mario and Ron Burkle. Especially Mario. I don't blame them for selling hi. That was smart. But Mario in particular is to blame for the following:
1) Hiring Hextall and Burke. Mario has the connections throughout the hockey world. How did we arrive here?
2) Maybe thanking Jim Rutherford with a President position a year or 2 earlier (aka "kicking upstairs") which might have allowed the Pens to hire Billy Guerin as GM.
3) The absolutely steadfast position of keeping all the stars. The Pens should have at least kicked the tires on a potential Malkin trade 2018-2020.
4) I wonder if Mario would have allowed a Carter extension or a Granlund trade.
So there is alot of blame to go around.
1) Hiring Hextall and Burke. Mario has the connections throughout the hockey world. How did we arrive here?
2) Maybe thanking Jim Rutherford with a President position a year or 2 earlier (aka "kicking upstairs") which might have allowed the Pens to hire Billy Guerin as GM.
3) The absolutely steadfast position of keeping all the stars. The Pens should have at least kicked the tires on a potential Malkin trade 2018-2020.
4) I wonder if Mario would have allowed a Carter extension or a Granlund trade.
So there is alot of blame to go around.
Don't think they can blow it all the way up with Sid,Geno, and Letang under contract for a few more years.They can cut some of the fat in other places.
Agreed . The big 3 deserve to make a decision based on them . They've certainly earned it .. Still surprised Sully is still behind the bench . Not that I would like to see him go but by hockey's history , the head coach is always the first to get a pink slip ...
I still think Hextall came in to turn the org. on it's ear .. Rat ...
Have you been a coma for 20 years
Goons have no value at all.
Good physical wingers and defensemen who can also play hockey - absolutely bring them in .
But Jesus h Christ - nothing says “I don’t actually watch hockey “ like wanting goons wasting a roster spot
The pens collapsed in the 3rd period frequently because the bottom 6 lines and defense was poor
Not because of a lack of goons
Another Gutless performance and third period choke. Fitting end to the season.
A fitting ending to the season. For all the people who think this team is a small tweak away, remember the last two games.
Now it’s time to watch Connor Bedard highlights and talk myself into something I know is not happening…
Similar post I've made at the end of the last 3 seasons.... the longer you wait and kick the can down the road, the worse it will be. They're old and still have no farm system or draft picks. To make it worse, they hitched their carriage to the old guys for years to come.
Plenty of blame to go around. Burke, Hextall, Sully, Rutherford and ownership.
Plenty of blame to go around. Burke, Hextall, Sully, Rutherford and ownership.
At least until October.
Sadly, if this game actually meant something and they were playing for the final spot, the result would still be the same. Can't beat Chicago, Mtl, Ottawa, Detroit when it matters while only winning 2 games against the top 4 teams in the Met throughout the season, you don't deserve to sniff the playoffs.
The new GM is going to have quite a mess to cleanup from Rutherford and Hextall.
The new GM is going to have quite a mess to cleanup from Rutherford and Hextall.
The Pens have 5 Stanley Cup championships in my lifetime, and I'm 40. The Pirates have zero world championships in that timeframe, and I believe 5 all time going back what, 120 years? And franchise control of players and market dynamics were much different when you got back into time, which helped the Pirates chances in the past but disfavor them now. If I live 40 more years and the Pirates win 5 more world championships, I would be SHOCKED. I just hope to see the Pirates win it all just once before I pass away! But I have serious doubts.
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Would you have it any other way?? Might as well put the cherry on top of this shit sundae of a season.
The fact that you still have this core 3 locked down, and many other players have strict no movement clauses like a Jeff Carter, the roster can't be "blown up". Unless the players themselves are willing to be traded. For example, everyone knew that the marriage between Mike Sullivan and Phil Kessel had come to an end. The Pens worked out a trade with Minnesota (ironically for Jason Zucker) and Kessel vetoed the trade. For some reason he agreed to be traded to Arizona (warm weather) and the Pens lost a bargaining chip.
So in saying all of this, I doubt you can change many of the players. So you have to change the coach. This last week where they needed wins against the very worst teams and they lost both games, sounds like to me a team trying to get the coach fired. Not exactly laying it out on the line for him (or themselves).
Boston has been successful over a smiliar timeframe, lost in the 1st round last year after having 112 points and they fired him and brought in a new coach, Dan Bylsma won a cup. We fired him. We can't let 2016 and 2017 just dictate coaching terms.
So in saying all of this, I doubt you can change many of the players. So you have to change the coach. This last week where they needed wins against the very worst teams and they lost both games, sounds like to me a team trying to get the coach fired. Not exactly laying it out on the line for him (or themselves).
Boston has been successful over a smiliar timeframe, lost in the 1st round last year after having 112 points and they fired him and brought in a new coach, Dan Bylsma won a cup. We fired him. We can't let 2016 and 2017 just dictate coaching terms.
But...
You don't re-sign Jarry and Dumoulin. That's two defensive liabilities out the door and new cash on hand.
There is a market for Petry if you want a salary dump with little to no return.
I'd say the same for Granlund, but they can always use centers, so I'd think he stays.
MP would have a strong market, and they wanted to trade him last off-season. He was solid this year. Do you sell high on him or keep and hope for similar results?
Guentzel is really a core player. Entering his contract year, do you re-up or sell high and bring back draft picks and young pieces? You have to give up something to get something.
Rust has a long but not insanely expensive contract. He disappointed this last year. With his performance and contract, you probably don't get what he's worth to the team back.
Do you try to trade CDS? A decent backup with decent metrics for a backup, but he's no 1A or 1B, and would anyone want him? I wouldn't.
Can you get Carter to retire? There are millions of reason why not. Buyout is the only option or you have to bring him back and hope that one more training camp and season makes him want to retire. Make him play 25-30 minutes a game in the preseason and hope his body breaks down to LTIR him.
A good new GM can overhaul the roster, but only a great one could work miracles with this roster.
Everyone talks about dumping Sullivan immediately while saying they can’t clean house with the roster because of all the no trade clauses.
But all I keep hearing elsewhere is they can’t get rid of Sully because he’s signed thru 2027. I guess we’ll see how deep those deep Fenway Group pockets are.
And any guys with no trade clauses, I can’t see them turning down a trade to another team with a brighter future/better playoff-Cup potential, which at this point should be many many teams.
Saw this on LetsgoPens the other day. Wouldn't be the first time a coaching career was made by falling into the right spot. Heck, happened here already. Maybe Sully is simply Bylsma II:
Well Well Well.....Let me throw this out there.......What if we won back to back cups despite having Sully as a coach? What if it was actually GMJR's player pickups that were so so good that even Sully couldn't screw things up. The players gelled and took the league by storm for 2 years. Maybe it all fell into Sully's lap and he just rolled with it. Maybe he isn't a good coach maybe its the players will and Crosby's leadership was what won them those two cups. And now we are left with a head coach who is still trying to coach the same way as he did during their cups. Because what coach moves have we really seen Sully make these past 5 years that were even mediocre? I don't categorize switching Rust and Rakell every couple of games as a brilliant coaching strategy.
There may just be some truth to this conspiracy theory. Maybe GMJR said one day " I can't Fockin take Sully anymore, I quit!!!!"
Dynasty1970AHL'er
Posts: 2,995Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:19 amLocation: California
Well Well Well.....Let me throw this out there.......What if we won back to back cups despite having Sully as a coach? What if it was actually GMJR's player pickups that were so so good that even Sully couldn't screw things up. The players gelled and took the league by storm for 2 years. Maybe it all fell into Sully's lap and he just rolled with it. Maybe he isn't a good coach maybe its the players will and Crosby's leadership was what won them those two cups. And now we are left with a head coach who is still trying to coach the same way as he did during their cups. Because what coach moves have we really seen Sully make these past 5 years that were even mediocre? I don't categorize switching Rust and Rakell every couple of games as a brilliant coaching strategy.
There may just be some truth to this conspiracy theory. Maybe GMJR said one day " I can't Fockin take Sully anymore, I quit!!!!"
Dynasty1970AHL'er
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The firings have happened!
www.nhl.com
Penguins Make Changes in Hockey Operations
The Penguins have relieved Brian Burke, Ron Hextall, and Chris Pryor of their duties.
www.nhl.com
This team is a below .500 hockey team. The loser points gained in their losses only fool fanbases into thinking they are contenders. It’s who they are, a team with a losing record. Some here are only finally realizing now that the team isn’t good. We saw this coming when Rutherford was mortgaging the future to try and win with the current aging core. Age is inevitable…although it is odd that the year Crosby and malkin play an entire season is the year they miss the playoffs. It’s a crazy oddity. Still though, I think a team whose coach’s message isn’t stale gets into the playoffs and gets some additional playoff revenue.
Let me reiterate. I am sure they will not do anything with Sullivan until they hire a new GM. But I am adamant they need to move on from him. He has shown no willingness to adapt and change. Is he a good coach? Sure. Will he get a new job quickly? Sure. So what. Again Bruce Cassidy is a good coach and was fired by the Bruins and landed with Vegas where he is doing well. And Boston has had a record season under a new coach.
It’s the same with Dixon and Tomlin. Both are good coaches who would get scooped up by other teams immediately. Doesn’t mean that they weren’t stale in current roles. You know me and soccer…great managers get sacked every 1.5-2 years sometimes so I’m used to men at the top of their professions moving on. College is a little different because rosters turn over, so messages don’t really get stale. But even at that, sometimes change of scenery is what’s needed and I’m with you. It’s time for Sully. He won us two cups. Legend. But time is up.
While I actually heard the interview, I missed this comment, but Tyler Kennedy apparently sees Sullivan as falling into the Bylsma stubbornness/inflexibility mode.
Hextall and Burke being fired immediately shows some decisiveness and authority from the ownership group. This will be their first GM hire, so I will see how this hire goes before passing judgment on them. I do not like that Sullivan is being included (reportedly) in the Gm hire/providing input. Otherwise, a quick, clean break and all candidates are still available at this time.
So...Heads roll because there is clearly a need for change, but....
You retain the guy who is stubborn and inflexible?
Seems backwards to me.
Does anyone not believe Burke and Hextall would have done things differently if not hamstrung by Sullivan?
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You guys all seem to ignore one important point, Sully is signed to big $$ thru 2027. He may still go once a new GM is selected but don’t be surprised if he is still around.
Not surprised at all.
Just, at this point,extremely disappointed
The absolute biggest impediment to change remains in place.
Absolutely crazy. .
You do agree he is the biggest impediment to change?
The Pens are going to suck for a few years with or without Sullivan.
The die is cast here.
What we saw this year may be the high water mark.
There are no answers.
Jarrry sucks in goal, but he may be their best option? Watch them try to sign him at a bargain rate. DeSmith is signed so he's not going anywhere but he's no #1.
Carter and Granland will be here too for quite a while.
Some say trade Guentzel but he is Syd's favorite winger, doubt that happens.
Geno and Letang aren't going anywhere either.
Get used to it. Until they start getting favorable draft positions and actually have low draft choices, they are going to stink.
The die is cast here.
What we saw this year may be the high water mark.
There are no answers.
Jarrry sucks in goal, but he may be their best option? Watch them try to sign him at a bargain rate. DeSmith is signed so he's not going anywhere but he's no #1.
Carter and Granland will be here too for quite a while.
Some say trade Guentzel but he is Syd's favorite winger, doubt that happens.
Geno and Letang aren't going anywhere either.
Get used to it. Until they start getting favorable draft positions and actually have low draft choices, they are going to stink.
Carter is here for one more year, only. (But that's more than enough)
