OT.....Pirates and Nutting
- Thread starter TD_istheman
- Start date
agree! For this franchise to win a title, it will take a real owner, not this joker. Check ownership of the Steelers and Pens where winning isn't everything IT IS THE ONLY THING THEY CARE ABOUT! Nutsack, not so much.
LOL. What, y'all didn't get enough attention once all the intelligent people checked out of the other thread?
I thought you checked out of the other thread because you knew you were wrong. I guess not!
I hope you are intelligent enough to find a way to enjoy watching your buccos the rest of the season. But you would have to be a super genius to figure a way to enjoy that garbage! As a defender of Nutsack, you have already proven your lack of intellect!
I'm not really defending anybody. The Pirates are small market. Always have been, always will be. Doesn't matter who the owner is.
My expectation is for them to operate in an optimum fashion for a small market team.
That others are stupid enough to equate payroll to trying isn't my problem. Payroll is the comfort blanket of the feeble minded, and that's okay, but there's no logic in "yeah the Pirates did something stupid but at least they tried". People have literally said that about the Penguins. That's the IQ of the people you're aligning yourself with. Doing something stupid isn't trying. It's duping the idiot sector of your consumer base.
And, with that, I'm once again out. Y'all have fun pretending like spending = wins even when the r^2 value between the two is a paltry 0.16. Don't forget, the 4 highest paid players on the Pirates this year are Liriano, Cutch, Niese, and a one-inning relief pitcher.
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Have a kielbasa and a bobblehead! They'll make all the pain go way....Nutsack says so.
I have been a Pirate fan since I was a kid and I will continue to be. I realize they are a small market team and the odds are stacked against them. I even agree with you that spending is not a guarantee to winning a title.
I simply do not trust and really do not like this ownership. Considering the small market and coupling it with the ownership I just feel like there is just to much to overcome to produce a winner. I am worried that the window they had is closing and we will be very mediocre team for a while here.
Perhaps the last 3 years were an example of them executing at the optimum level. Maybe you are right, maybe it doesn't even matter who the owner is. I know one thing, and it is unlikely ever to happen. Baseball needs a salary cap and needs to be operated so that every team has an equal chance. At that point, we would know for sure whether Nutsack is the problem or not.
Nutsack should be able to fix the broken down chair lifts at 7 Springs with the $ he is raking in.
One should ask where Searage's magic went. The pitching is holding you back more than economics
Well if the plan is to turn every broken down pitcher into a Cy Young candidate, it is the equivalent of playing the Powerball as your retirement plan. That is too much on Searage. He is a great coach, but he is not a miracle worker. They gave him nothing this year to work with.
Del and td isthman are in heaven. It's been a tough 4 years for them seeing the buccos win. Finally they get a chance to gloat.
Not in heaven at all. If you and your coterie of yinzers knew anything about BB, you would have seen this coming. Nutsack gave you three years to revel in the boobie prize. You don't fill holes in the team and the team gets worse-simple as that. He had a chance to build the Pirates into a championship team and he blew because he wanted to protect his wallet. By his estimation, you should be happy for another 25 years...after all you still will receive the bobbleheads and kielbasa, which is more important to folks like you in any event. I want a championship, not kielbasa and bobbleheads. Nutting depends on gullible folks like you. Nutting's a bum!
The Pirates are also making alot of money. Look, I am not Del and expect the Pirates to go out and pay for a Greinke or Price, but the price of pitching has been established this past offseason at around $12 million per year at the floor. Small Market or not, the Pirates are in MLB and a competitor in MLB. We need to forget about this self imposed paradigm of a $10 million salary. The MLB average salary is now $4.4 million. 121 players now make over $10 million a year. This type of salary is no longer a rarity.
The Pirates screwed up with Happ. $12 mill per year for 3 years is not a contract that should be immune to the Pirates. Even if it is for a 4th starter, again it is the price of doing business. Even if Taillon and Glasnow come up and become Ryan and Seaver, Happ would fill out the rotation better than Locke. I am just using Happ as the obvious example, as he did well with the Bucs last year. He is doing well this year. But when you didn't sign him, and nothing else out there was affordable or worth the price, and you left yourself with Nicasio and Vogelsong as options, well.....
Again, on these forums when picking the records for the Pirates this year, I picked 84 wins and missing the playoffs. I just thought it was natural to think a Liriano would have a hiccup, and some injuries would occur. It was just natural that some of the good luck the Pirates enjoyed, would turn. I also thought the Cubs would be good, but not historically great.
The thing I want to see is for the Pirates to be honest on where they are. They are done this season. Trade Melancon. AND........see what kind of offers you can field for McCutcheon. The earlier the better return you can get. The window is not closed, but the Pirates have some really club friendlly contracts, and will have pre Arbitration guys like Taillon, Bell, Meadows and Glasnow up over the next year. Trading McCutcheon is not about trading salary, it is about getting some assets at positions of need. But be honest. And if you have to overpay for a pitcher, so be it, as long as it is not over 3 years term.
So predictable....roller coaster man. Things are great until reality can't be any longer rejected.
I don't think Del is out of line. I think the business model for the Pirates is to compete, be good, and if the chips fall, great. If not? Hey, great year. But as long as you are in races come August and September, people will fill PNC Park. But to go "all in" is not an acceptable risk because the reward isn't that great to the Nuttings. Profit>Championship. And we don't see this with the other two franchises in town.
Um......I predicted the Pirates would not be close to the playoffs this year. I also don't think trading say Polanco, Taillon and Josh Bell for Giancarlo Stanton as you were want to do makes sense either.
Or to bring it more to home, the PIrates made a great move in getting Happ for that price as compared to what teams did to get Price or Cueto. Same result.
But........they had Happ in hand and let him walk when they desperately needed pitching.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
I feel really sorry for all of the small market teams like Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and St. Louis that can't compete and never win anything.
my frustration lies with nutting not selling team to more wealthier owners, aka Cuban, who would have spent more, much more.. I know I know, it's his choice, he spends wisely, blah blah.. I was listening to Cuban on the stern show awhile back and he actively tried to buy the pirates.. Damn, that would have been fun..
I don't want to say we got lucky the last 4 or 5 years, that would be unfair to ownership. It's just, to put crudely, we sat down at the high stakes poker table with a "short stack" and competed.. YOu can do that if you don't make any mistakes, if you get some good contracts, if some FAs "pan out"..
I am not ready to dump everyone though. We got a nice base.. Love our corner outfielders, Bell will be a huge piece of the puzzle as soon as next year and we have a lot of young arms in Indy/Altoona. Maybe we "shop" melancon, entertain offers for Cutch but there are still some good days ahead for our buccos..
I don't want to say we got lucky the last 4 or 5 years, that would be unfair to ownership. It's just, to put crudely, we sat down at the high stakes poker table with a "short stack" and competed.. YOu can do that if you don't make any mistakes, if you get some good contracts, if some FAs "pan out"..
I am not ready to dump everyone though. We got a nice base.. Love our corner outfielders, Bell will be a huge piece of the puzzle as soon as next year and we have a lot of young arms in Indy/Altoona. Maybe we "shop" melancon, entertain offers for Cutch but there are still some good days ahead for our buccos..
once I find out what "coterie" means, I will be using this expression quite often.. Maybe I give you credit, maybe not but "Coterior of yinzers" has a nice ring to it, despite this being at my expense..
I don't believe in the whole Nuttings only care about a profit and not winning. I think that is just a simple excuse for the simple minded.
What I do believe is that this management team, after 3 years of making some really good calls, royally f'd up their pitching and depth this year by making some bad signings and leaving open some glaring holes. Relying on Jay Hay, while not being bad, to be the everyday second baseman was a bad move IMO. He is a great roving guy that can give the starters a break w/o losing a beat. You lose that when he is an everyday guy, which then screws up the bench.
As for pitching, it is garbage. Unless there was a plan for both Tailon and Glasnow to be up here by mid season, they screwed that up bad. They made similar moves the last 3 years that worked out, but this year missed. And that is on the GM.
People compare this ownership to the Pens and Steelers, but they have the luxuary of playing on a level playing field. People forget that with the current Pens ownership, the team was absolute garbage in the early 2000s when there was no cap. We got lucky and hit the Sid lottery and are able to match any team in what we can pay for him, unlike the old days when the Rangers or Flyers would swoop in and just pay an unbelievable contract for these types of players.
What I do believe is that this management team, after 3 years of making some really good calls, royally f'd up their pitching and depth this year by making some bad signings and leaving open some glaring holes. Relying on Jay Hay, while not being bad, to be the everyday second baseman was a bad move IMO. He is a great roving guy that can give the starters a break w/o losing a beat. You lose that when he is an everyday guy, which then screws up the bench.
As for pitching, it is garbage. Unless there was a plan for both Tailon and Glasnow to be up here by mid season, they screwed that up bad. They made similar moves the last 3 years that worked out, but this year missed. And that is on the GM.
People compare this ownership to the Pens and Steelers, but they have the luxuary of playing on a level playing field. People forget that with the current Pens ownership, the team was absolute garbage in the early 2000s when there was no cap. We got lucky and hit the Sid lottery and are able to match any team in what we can pay for him, unlike the old days when the Rangers or Flyers would swoop in and just pay an unbelievable contract for these types of players.
I think nutting is a multi millionaire playing a game of no limit poker with a bunch of billionaires.. The "margin of error" is much smaller. It's like going out bar hopping with 20 bucks, while all your buddies have their parents credit cards.. You got to pick and choose your opportunities, pound a 6 pack before you leave house, drink bottom rail bourbon while your buddies are doing top shelf, sneak a couple beers in and chug in the bathroom to avoid $6 dollar beer night.
The major difference is not so much the owner themselves, it's the local tv deals for each team that makes the huge money difference.
That is not what I said. They want to be good, being good is good for business. I am sure they want to win a Championship. BUT...they are not going to really go over their budget, even if only temporary, to try and win. That is the difference. I am sure the Royals right now are in a bit of a discomfort area for their owners, but they are also champs.
I am not like Del and this TD guy, thinking the Pirates should spend $250 million on Zack Greinke. But I am saying, when are at this level, you got to make some moves to try and go over the top. I am fine with blowing off this season. It is lost. But next year, be aggressive.
pittdan77
Athletic Director
I think the better analogy is that Nutting is the guy that always tells you how poor he is, mooches off of the rest of the crew, but somehow always has money for other things. That despite the fact there are other guys in the group that are worse off than him but still lay out like everyone else.
Nutting is one if the wealthiest owners , this is insane , you people allow this.
damn, you are actually right. well kind of.. he's the 10th wealthiest owner, actually is a billionaire.. my poor man sitting at high stakes poker table analogy is shot to hell. My "bar hopping with 20 bucks" analogy never really made sense in the first place so that's good..
Del, you can't win a drinking contest with Koolaid sippers.
But he is not going to outspend revenue every year. That is what you don't get. Rich people don't get rich by losing money.
Want to know the biggest problem? It is that stupid luxury tax that the Pirates love to get so they have usually made sure their payrolls were low to get some of that money. That is almost hush money to keep these small market teams down.
I'm not a fan of Nutting or The Best Management Team In Baseball. At all. That said, a good portion of the Pirates' hard times so far in 2016 is what we used to call "That's Baseball". Which is to say, the larger forces of The Game affect every team, sooner or later.
Things like a rash of injuries, a couple of pitchers having off-years, a torrid division rival, your other contenders improving or bouncing back from subpar years. It isn't always about the Pirates and what they do or fail to do. Also, if you look at trends, it is extremely rare for a team to boost its win total for more than 2-3 seasons as the Bucs have done. Regression is inevitable.
Sometimes get inside that bubble and overlook the other variables. And some years just go to Hell early.
A team with a very deep farm system like the Cardinals could overcome all those injuries last year and still win 100 games. Pittsburgh's farm system isn't there yet. Now, it remains to be seen if the Pirates will stay the course this year and battle for a wild card or fall out of the race completely, in which case they could be sellers in a couple of weeks. Ownership's MO gives little reason to believe that it will spend drastically to redirect a season heading in the wrong direction.
Things like a rash of injuries, a couple of pitchers having off-years, a torrid division rival, your other contenders improving or bouncing back from subpar years. It isn't always about the Pirates and what they do or fail to do. Also, if you look at trends, it is extremely rare for a team to boost its win total for more than 2-3 seasons as the Bucs have done. Regression is inevitable.
Sometimes get inside that bubble and overlook the other variables. And some years just go to Hell early.
A team with a very deep farm system like the Cardinals could overcome all those injuries last year and still win 100 games. Pittsburgh's farm system isn't there yet. Now, it remains to be seen if the Pirates will stay the course this year and battle for a wild card or fall out of the race completely, in which case they could be sellers in a couple of weeks. Ownership's MO gives little reason to believe that it will spend drastically to redirect a season heading in the wrong direction.
Momentum in baseball goes as far as your starting pitcher for the next game. The Pirates did not count on Cole being both average and on the DL or that Liriano would struggle after having rebounded. But the next two starters were iffy. Neise has been decent....Locke has been a nightmare.
The middle relief is awful.
Cutch is mired in what I think is an off year (that's baseball...it happened to # 21 it can happen to anyone).
They have their 8th string catcher and they and everyone else has run into the CUBS who are on an historical path.
This is where crossed fingers (failure to get appropriate starting pitching and hoping guys spin straw into gold) and "that's baseball" (Cutch slump, catcher injuries, Cole injury, CUBS) collide.
The measure of Nutting will be the rest of this season and the off season. Pittsburgh could do some trading at or near the deadline that would be meaningful.
Blaming it all on Nutting ignores the last 3 years. That is how I see it.
The last 3 years could have been better had Nutting plugged key holes in his lineup. He fielded teams for the better part of these three years that were short on run production and had major holes at first and third base and right field. Notwithstanding their regular season successes the last 3 years the Pirates had fundamental flaws that weren't addressed- the reason- Nutting was happy just to compete and wouldn't go the extra mile to supplement the roster to make it championship caliber.
I don't disagree but I am certain that how the present situation is handled will tell me all I want to know about the value of the Nuttings' as owners.
ummmmmm...... yeahhhh....
Have you not been a fan since 1990? This is far better. We have a good minor league system and get smarter free agent signings.
We are battling the cubs, who are a huge market and havent won in 107 years. They go get Lester and Heyward (off a mediocre few years)... but mostly all made up of internet minor leaguers. Give them kudos.
Like I said, they knew what they would need to compete going into the season, they choose to do nothing.
I will watch them on tv, I love baseball and the Pirates , but won't participate in the Nuttinggrab
So let's surmise...The Bucs were the worst run franchise of every pro league. The current owners have turned them into a playoff team the last three years. The current owners have locked up virtually every position player that made them a playoff contender for multiple years (which is extending their window not closing it). The current owners oversaw a complete rebuilding of what now looks like a stocked farm system. And you don't "trust" them.
Who give a F' what they spend, or what they profit. They have brought the best baseball played in Pittsburgh in a generation.
Again, the biggest reason for the struggles this year is the injuries over the last couple of years to their top pitching prospects. The plan was to have following this year-
Cole
Liriano
Taillon (should be in his 3rd season)
Kingham (should be in his 2nd season)
If the they don't get hit with a rash of injuries they can afford to keep one of better starters they lost in FA and everyone else was pushed back.
Who give a F' what they spend, or what they profit. They have brought the best baseball played in Pittsburgh in a generation.
Again, the biggest reason for the struggles this year is the injuries over the last couple of years to their top pitching prospects. The plan was to have following this year-
Cole
Liriano
Taillon (should be in his 3rd season)
Kingham (should be in his 2nd season)
If the they don't get hit with a rash of injuries they can afford to keep one of better starters they lost in FA and everyone else was pushed back.
I'm not going to blame all this on Nutting. Neal huntingdon deserves almost all of the blame the organization tried to outsmart themselves and they forgot talent wins. They signed Jaso and he has provided nothing while we have Josh Bell who should be playing in AAA. They signed a bunch off castoffs for the pitching staff and they got exactly what they paid for. I also agree maybe Jim Benedict played a bigger role in the previous pitching success than Ray Searge has because the pitching staff is awful and shows zero signs of improving. I say bring the Bell, Glassnow, and Kuhl up and let them take a few lumps because the playoffs are a longshot
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