20th Century Club offiically for sale

[CrazyPaco]

Will Pitt's administration be as dumb and incompetent on this one as it was with the PAA? This should be a no brainer purchase. You just have very few chances to acquire historic buildings on a campus that is in desperate need of space. Heck, Pitt is planning to build a conference center next to the University Club. No other school would pass on this, but then, no other one would have dropped the ball on the PAA.

https://www.post-gazette.com/busine...gelow-Boulevard-for-sale/stories/201909240169

 

[9nationalchampionships]

The location yes, the building no! What you say Paco?

 

[CrazyPaco]

The location yes, the building no! What you say Paco?

Absolutely not, you can't tear that down, it would be even stupider than not purchasing it at all.

I can't imagine any other half prominent university 1) not purchasing a building like that adjacent to its campus and 2) tearing it down. Seriously, no other university would consider doing that.

Now building it out while preserving historic elements is a different story.

But as I said, they whiffed big time on the PAA, which would have been a signature building in the heart of the campus, and now are even planning to rent out a big chunk of the PAA at top market rates, so they deserve to be roundly lampooned for that. Major, major fail. And they have the former Central Turnverein and Concordia Clubs slated for demolition without any preservation, which is also something I could not see any other university doing and honestly can't think of a single similar example of such a thing happening elsewhere, even the most urban of campuses.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

I poked my head in the front door and side door and looked around. There is some serious updating and refitting needed which is much more expensive than starting over with the lot as a variable.

Absolutely not, you can't tear that down, it would be even stupider than not purchasing it at all.

I can't imagine any other half prominent university 1) not purchasing a building like that adjacent to its campus and 2) tearing it down. Seriously, no other university would consider doing that.

Now building it out while preserving historic elements is a different story.

But as I said, they whiffed big time on the PAA, and now are even planning to rent out a big chunk of it. And they have the former Concordia Club slated for demolition, something I also could not see any other university doing.

 

[CrazyPaco]

I poked my head in the front door and side door and looked around. There is some serious updating and refitting needed which is much more expensive than starting over with the lot as a variable.

I'm sure it does. So did what is now the William Pitt Union, Schenley Quadrangle, Bellefield Hall, Alumni Hall, the Univeristy Club, the Child Development Center, Thackery Hall, the O'Hara Student Center, and Allegheny Observatory. So does nearly any building of character on any university campus.

You just can't demo historic buildings like that. Every time it is done it is seen as a huge mistake by future generations. What you can do, like many cities and nearly any school that actually takes their history and campus aesthetics seriously, is come up with a plan that preserves the facade and maybe some of the more prominent interior space. Pitt is already planning to destroy a large chunk of the historic context of the O'Hara St corridor and turn it into the architectural equivalent of a research park which is nearly criminal, and hopefully blocked by the historic review commission until they incorporate some element of street facade preservation.

They need to at least preserve the facade, at a minimum.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

You just can't demo historic buildings like that. Every time it is done it is seen as a huge mistake by future generations.

Well over 99% of future generations won't care even a wee little bit.

Which actually will make them just like the people of today.

 

[pbrad]

Will Pitt's administration be as dumb and incompetent on this one as it was with the PAA? This should be a no brainer purchase. You just have very few chances to acquire historic buildings on a campus that is in desperate need of space. Heck, Pitt is planning to build a conference center next to the University Club. No other school would pass on this, but then, no other one would have dropped the ball on the PAA.

https://www.post-gazette.com/busine...gelow-Boulevard-for-sale/stories/201909240169

Paco, I'm shocked to hear you say the admin are boneheads, but I agree with you other than the part of preserving the building. I have worked on and in a lot of the buildings on campus and the older ones are maintenance nightmares. Lots of asbestos and plumbing and heating nightmares. Having said that I do not believe the "historical society" would let the building be demolished.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Well over 99% of future generations won't care even a wee little bit.

Which actually will make them just like the people of today.

Right, that is why people are still bitching about tearing down the Syria Mosque 25 years later and the Pittsburgh visitor's bureau likes to boast about things like theater district, or Market Square, or the Mexican War Streets.

It's why the Croatian Fraternal building is now nominated as a historic building after Pitt stupidly applied to demo it without any regards to preservation. Clearly no one cares. And it doesn't serve Pitt's ultimate purpose to build facilities when it completely ignores preservation in its development plan and riles up the preservation groups. For the Croatian Building, if they just incorporated the ornate gothic facade into a new building, that would have satisfied most. Now if it gets historic status, they may be stuck preserving the whole thing.

 

[bwh05]

Will Pitt's administration be as dumb and incompetent on this one as it was with the PAA? This should be a no brainer purchase. You just have very few chances to acquire historic buildings on a campus that is in desperate need of space. Heck, Pitt is planning to build a conference center next to the University Club. No other school would pass on this, but then, no other one would have dropped the ball on the PAA.

https://www.post-gazette.com/business/development/2019/09/24/Twentieth-Century-Club-Oakland-Bigelow-Boulevard-for-sale/stories/2019092401


I guess the PAA didn’t want to sell to us due to bad blood with Pitt. Take that FWIW

 

[Saboteur]

Ok all you folks who want to tell people what to do with property they own....place your money where your mouth is and send cash to fund your dreams.
Rome wasn't built in a day....Paris either.

 

[bayardstreet]

Future generations will only care about who’s going to take care of them and upgrading their smart phones.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Paco, I'm shocked to hear you say the admin are boneheads, but I agree with you other than the part of preserving the building. I have worked on and in a lot of the buildings on campus and the older ones are maintenance nightmares. Lots of asbestos and plumbing and heating nightmares. Having said that I do not believe the "historical society" would let the building be demolished.

Yes, it is that way at all schools of any stature with historic buildings. They find ways to incorporate their character into modern facilities. I’m not saying all buildings that are old should be preserved. Some should just have their facades preserved (Gardner Steele) and others should be completely demoed (Fitzgerald).

Administrations do good things, and they do dumb things. I often don't agree with what they do, but I champion when they do something right. After the fact, it doesn't matter and I try to not beat a dead horse, but here is a chance here to encourage a good move. I disagreed with them not going after Schenley High. But, not getting the PAA was a boneheaded whiff. Apparently, they bid, and there was a second round they were invited to bid on it, and Pitt didn't bother. At least that’s what was conveyed to me, and if that was the case, it was a terrible decision, long-term, for the physical campus. Now there is another chance at an architecturally significant building. There aren't too many of them left.

Generally I think the current administration is doing a good job. But there are warts. I’m not a fan of the aesthetic character of some parts of the new master plan. And that is something that could be rectified before it is too late.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Bwh05, it was told to me that Pitt made the cut after the first round of bidding and was invited to bid on the second round but decided not to. Maybe there was more to it, but I don't know, and I didn't get that impression. Regardless, it is unfathomable to me not to go all out for a building like that in the middle of central campus. That's a post card building.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Right, that is why people are still bitching about tearing down the Syria Mosque 25 years later and the Pittsburgh visitor's bureau likes to boast about things like theater district, or Market Square, or the Mexican War Streets.

It's why the Croatian Fraternal building is now nominated as a historic building after Pitt stupidly applied to demo it without any regards to preservation. Clearly no one cares. And it doesn't serve Pitt's ultimate purpose to build facilities when it completely ignores preservation in its development plan and riles up the preservation groups. For the Croatian Building, if they just incorporated the ornate gothic facade into a new building, that would have satisfied most. Now if it gets historic status, they may be stuck preserving the whole thing.

Well first of all, I didn't say that no one would care. I said that far fewer than 1% would care. I'll stand by that.

And in fact you kind of prove my point. No one under the age of 40, and more probably 50, cares even a wee little bit that they tore the Syria Mosque down. No one. Most people older than 40 or 50 don't care either. Far, far more than who do care. The number of people who care that the Syria Mosque is no longer there is very, very small. And most of those people don't actually care at all about things like the architecture or the historic value of the building, they just think it was a cool place to see a concert.

The people who generally do care are the people who think that it is their place to tell other people what they can and can't do with their property and how they have to spend their money. If you think that the 20th Century Club needs saved in all it's current glory then step up to the plate and buy it. And then do whatever you want with it.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Well first of all, I didn't say that no one would care. I said that far fewer than 1% would care. I'll stand by that.

And in fact you kind of prove my point. No one under the age of 40, and more probably 50, cares even a wee little bit that they tore the Syria Mosque down. No one. Most people older than 40 or 50 don't care either. Far, far more than who do care. The number of people who care that the Syria Mosque is no longer there is very, very small. And most of those people don't actually care at all about things like the architecture or the historic value of the building, they just think it was a cool place to see a concert.

The people who generally do care are the people who think that it is their place to tell other people what they can and can't do with their property and how they have to spend their money. If you think that the 20th Century Club needs saved in all it's current glory then step up to the plate and buy it. And then do whatever you want with it.

That’s why the city has a historic review commission. Because people cared enough to have it become long standing public policy to prevent the destruction of historical and architecturally significant structures. This happened because of outcry about structures whose loss had been lamented. Specifically, historic designations and review commissions that review building and demolitions permits are to to protect significant structures from people that don't care, or are just ignorant about them. When you buy something that has historical designations, as the 20th Century Club does as it is a contributing property to both the city and national Schenley Farms Historic districts, a buyer should be aware of that status and the potential problems with developing or renovating such a property without historic sympathies.

There are all sorts of laws, regulations, and ordinances about what one can and cannot do with one's property, and they have stood for a long, long time in small towns to large cities. But this isn't about the limits of libertarian views of property ownership, as much as the straightforward question about what would make Pitt's campus more historic, aesthetically impressive, and memorable. No one is making a case for the beauty of Sennot Square or Public Safety Building. Undergrad tours don't start in Craig Hall. Not too long ago Pitt's best idea was to make a concrete brutalist paradise on top of Forbes Field and the Union and the whole way up to the Cathedral. Does anyone lament that vision was only partially realized?

And I reject the idea that one must choose between facility progress or preservation, even with the urban facility and space needs that Pitt has, because I see historic preservation incorporated in to large modern structures in campuses and cities all the time. I really believe it is more unusual to take the tact that Pitt has been lately. It is my strong opinion that Pitt campus is better for preserving these significant historic buildings, at least the facades in some cases. This is clearly what most other universities of any significant note have concluded as well. Once they are gone, they are never coming back.

 

[HailtoPitt]

It's Pitt. They will botch it.

But really now. If they can rent space in someone else's stadium, then what's the problem renting space from the new owners here? Or renting space in the PAA from Walnut. Pitt doesn't need to pay for building upkeep.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

That’s why the city has a historic review commission.

The city has a historic review commission because there is always a group of people who think they know better than anyone else what someone should and should not be allowed to do with their property. For folks like that it's the best of both worlds. They can force people to do what they want, and they can force those people to have to pay for it. Win - win.

If the City wants to decide what should happen with the 20th Century Club, or any other piece of property, then the City should purchase that property and do with it whatever they desire.

 

[MrPups]

Real estate trends over the past 10-15 years suggest that a lot more than 1% of the population cares about historic preservation. The greatest price appreciation has tended to happen in places like DUMBO in Brooklyn, Pacific Heights in San Francisco or the Pearl District in Portland - all neighborhoods with stringent historic preservation standards and robust community involvement. On a local level, real estate in neighborhoods with a strong historic pedigree like Lawrenceville or Highland Park has significantly outperformed soulless exburbs like Cranberry or the Ryan Homes slowly slouching toward slumdom in Pittsburgh's inner ring suburbs. Educated, wealthy people want to live in neighborhoods with historical character. If only 1% care about historic preservation then it's the 1% who own 50% of the world's wealth.

Paco is right, if Pitt wants to be an internationally respected institution that's attractive to the high-income earners of tomorrow, then the University should be doing everything in it's power to preserve and repurpose every historic structure within a 1 mile radius of campus. The fact that the University is instead threatening these structures with the reckoning ball is depressing and shows a shocking lack of sophistication on the part of the administration.

 

[bwh05]

Bwh05, it was told to me that Pitt made the cut after the first round of bidding and was invited to bid on the second round but decided not to. Maybe there was more to it, but I don't know, and I didn't get that impression. Regardless, it is unfathomable to me not to go all out for a building like that in the middle of central campus. That's a post card building.

I agree it was a must get for Pitt, but like I said, the PAA leadership apparently told Pitt they weren’t going to sell to them. I couldn’t believe we didn’t closed that deal so I asked someone that would know. I can’t say if that’s spin or not tho.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Well over 99% of future generations won't care even a wee little bit.

Which actually will make them just like the people of today.

it’s a bit comical how Paco has very specific criteria for what Pitt should do, and any variance is a major failure.


But the last major failure , the wrestling coach hire- turned out pretty well.

perhsps Pitt does a bit more due diligence than paco gives them credit for?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Real estate trends over the past 10-15 years suggest that a lot more than 1% of the population cares about historic preservation. The greatest price appreciation has tended to happen in places like DUMBO in Brooklyn, Pacific Heights in San Francisco or the Pearl District in Portland - all neighborhoods with stringent historic preservation standards and robust community involvement. On a local level, real estate in neighborhoods with a strong historic pedigree like Lawrenceville or Highland Park has significantly outperformed soulless exburbs like Cranberry or the Ryan Homes slowly slouching toward slumdom in Pittsburgh's inner ring suburbs. Educated, wealthy people want to live in neighborhoods with historical character. If only 1% care about historic preservation then it's the 1% who own 50% of the world's wealth.

Paco is right, if Pitt wants to be an internationally respected institution that's attractive to the high-income earners of tomorrow, then the University should be doing everything in it's power to preserve and repurpose every historic structure within a 1 mile radius of campus. The fact that the University is instead threatening these structures with the reckoning ball is depressing and shows a shocking lack of sophistication on the part of the administration.

You have the cause and effect backwards. People don't want to live in nice neighborhoods because they have preservation rules in effect. People who live in nice neighborhoods put up with the rules because the neighborhoods are nice.

As to the 1%, typically part of why they are in the 1% is because they are good at getting others to do what they want, and not only that but getting others to pay for it as well. Generally speaking, that's not a good thing.

 

[PittFamily2]

Real estate trends over the past 10-15 years suggest that a lot more than 1% of the population cares about historic preservation. The greatest price appreciation has tended to happen in places like DUMBO in Brooklyn, Pacific Heights in San Francisco or the Pearl District in Portland - all neighborhoods with stringent historic preservation standards and robust community involvement. On a local level, real estate in neighborhoods with a strong historic pedigree like Lawrenceville or Highland Park has significantly outperformed soulless exburbs like Cranberry or the Ryan Homes slowly slouching toward slumdom in Pittsburgh's inner ring suburbs. Educated, wealthy people want to live in neighborhoods with historical character. If only 1% care about historic preservation then it's the 1% who own 50% of the world's wealth.

Paco is right, if Pitt wants to be an internationally respected institution that's attractive to the high-income earners of tomorrow, then the University should be doing everything in it's power to preserve and repurpose every historic structure within a 1 mile radius of campus. The fact that the University is instead threatening these structures with the reckoning ball is depressing and shows a shocking lack of sophistication on the part of the administration.

Bravo, bravo, encore, couldn't have been said better.
Ivy league and other blue blood colleges and universities figured this out long ago.

For example Princeton University entered into a partnership to restore the Bainbridge House on Nassau St one of the last 18th century historic buildings on Nassau St. I love visiting Princeton's historic sites on my visits to the University.
It's not an accident that the university is called Princeton.

It's all true and a blueprint for young people to get rich.
Buy the least expensive property in the most expensive, exclusive pedigree"d" neighborhoods, and keep doing that over and over again.

In short order you'll be making your Cadillac dealer very happy.

 

[tetonpanther]

Crazy paco knows nothing about the PAA sale. . It was complex. and as it turns out Pitt is in a great position to benefit from the new development. There are many reasons Pitt did not bid.in the bankruptcy. To attribute it to Pitt's incompetence is total bs from a guy 1000 miles away. Really CP you need to sit down and learn your role. You know nothing about that deal.

 

[tetonpanther]

It was a bankruptcy sale free and clear of liens to the HIGHEST BIDDER. the PAA leadership had little to do with the sale. It was court ordered.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

ill be disgusted if this isn't some sort of hospital or hotel in 3 years.. i may accept a medical professional building, maybe..

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Oakland needs another hotel or apartment building.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Oakland needs another hotel or apartment building.

more hotels please, i want Oakland to be recognized as the chain hotel capital of the western world.

in a perfect world, it'd be another hospital with a hotel attached. like a convention center but replace it with an inmpatient hospital. that would be "So Oakland" if they could do that..

 

[bwh05]

It was a bankruptcy sale free and clear of liens to the HIGHEST BIDDER. the PAA leadership had little to do with the sale. It was court ordered.

that’s what I thought, I’m just telling you what I heard so that that FWIW

 

[bwh05]

Oakland needs another hotel or apartment building.

we do need more apartment buildings for student housing. That helps Pitt. The Bridge on Forbes where the freshmen athletes live is a huge recruiting tool vs Sutherland Hall.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

Schenley High school was allegedly going to be so expensive to renovate because of asbestos, but came in way under the estimates and now is very nice apartments (though I wish it was never closed in the first place but that's another story.)

Definitely pro preserving our architectural heritage, we're a cool, old city. I'd like to see more turned into mixed income, mixed used, affordable housing with local retail instead of generic luxury apartments/chain hotels, but a university project preserving the facade would be at least something.

 

[CrazyPaco]

I agree it was a must get for Pitt, but like I said, the PAA leadership apparently told Pitt they weren’t going to sell to them. I couldn’t believe we didn’t closed that deal so I asked someone that would know. I can’t say if that’s spin or not tho.

That's somewhat contradictory to what I had heard.

Now, a factor in the bidding was reserving part of the facility for continued PAA club use, which Walnut Capital has carved out for them. This is minimal space really, and Pitt has done this with Bellefield Towers which houses a church, and prior to that Ruskin Hall that had existing residents when it was an apartment building. It is doubtful that the PAA club will exist in 25 or 50 years, so if this prevented Pitt from bidding in the second round, it is equally stupid. And again, Pitt has already committed to renting a large chunk of the PAA from Walnut Capital, so Pitt has no excuse for not wanting to operate in the same facility as the club which is going to operate there.

I can imagine the PAA (or whoever was in charge of the bankruptcy sale) wasn't going to sell to them because Pitt refused to provide the club space in the building. I don't buy the fact that the PAA or whomever refused to sell because they just don't like the university (which they had been renting space to already).

Everything points to Pitt being incredibly dumb and shortsighted. They should never have left it get away.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Schenley High school was allegedly going to be so expensive to renovate because of asbestos, but came in way under the estimates and now is very nice apartments (though I wish it was never closed in the first place but that's another story.)

Definitely pro preserving our architectural heritage, we're a cool, old city. I'd like to see more turned into mixed income, mixed used, affordable housing with local retail instead of generic luxury apartments/chain hotels, but a university project preserving the facade would be at least something.

Of course it came in under. I'm not surprised at all by that. There's a reason private developers bid on it.

It would have made a fantastic upper classmen or even grad student apartments and living community with its own recreational facilities. It would have been Pitt's nicest residence facility (or could have been retrofitted as an academic facility). But I guess Pitt doesn't need housing space.....

I know it was brought up in one housing meeting on exploring possibilities for new facilities as a potential new residence hall and shot down because it was "too far off campus". It is literally one and a half blocks from Ruskin Hall and no further than the Forbes-Craig apartments, not to mention much closer than the Center Plaza Apartments. Now seriously, how absolutely stupid of reasoning was that to dismiss even discussion of it.

 

[CrazyPaco]

we do need more apartment buildings for student housing. That helps Pitt. The Bridge on Forbes where the freshmen athletes live is a huge recruiting tool vs Sutherland Hall.

Pitt is now renting a chunk of the Bridge to house student athletes.

 

[DruidTM]

The location yes, the building no! What you say Paco?

Hell no

Keep the building it’s beautiful

We had our wedding reception there

Historical site

 

[tetonpanther]

In fact continued use of part of the athletic facilities was a condition to bid in the bankruptcy. there were 2 and possibly 3 bidders. The process moves fast. You cannot put together a university committee to explore bidding. You either bid or you don't. The court awarded the bid to Walnut. A huge part of the bid was paying an amount sufficient to pay off all the PAA's liens and there were many ,many liens. It was a good deal in bankruptcy for the PAA, for the creditors and Walnut capital. Walnut has a great relationship with Pitt and UPMC and Pitt is out at Bakery Sq as well.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Wah

 

[CrazyPaco]

Crazy paco knows nothing about the PAA sale. . It was complex. and as it turns out Pitt is in a great position to benefit from the new development. There are many reasons Pitt did not bid.in the bankruptcy. To attribute it to Pitt's incompetence is total bs from a guy 1000 miles away. Really CP you need to sit down and learn your role. You know nothing about that deal.

Of course it was complex. You had club carve out for facility access probably with insurance issues, a hotel development slated for the surface lot, needed renovations and historic preservation restrictions. Why don't you inform us what we don't know then. Pitt bid on it. They did want it at some point. Pitt has experience redeveloping historic properties and including retail in development projects and leasing out development rights on properties. Pitt may never get another shot at it now that it is on the city tax rolls. It completely appears as a short term decision, not a long-term 100-year decision about controlling property in the core of your campus which, in other locations, has been a thorn in Pitt's side for decades. It's not like Schenley High that was on the periphery, this is smack dab in the middle of the middle. I stand by my opinion that it was absolutely dumb not to take control of that property when the opportunity arose, regardless of complications. My role on a free message board is to give my opinion, and unless you care to provide additional information why it was a good for a long-term 100 year strategy not to acquire it, I'll stand by my opinion and keep giving it as I see fit. If you have good reasoning why Pitt did what they did other than save on up-front complications and redevelopment costs, I may change my opinion.

 

[bwh05]

Pitt is now renting a chunk of the Bridge to house student athletes.

I know, that's why I posted that. They love it there.

 

[bwh05]

In fact continued use of part of the athletic facilities was a condition to bid in the bankruptcy. there were 2 and possibly 3 bidders. The process moves fast. You cannot put together a university committee to explore bidding. You either bid or you don't. The court awarded the bid to Walnut. A huge part of the bid was paying an amount sufficient to pay off all the PAA's liens and there were many ,many liens. It was a good deal in bankruptcy for the PAA, for the creditors and Walnut capital. Walnut has a great relationship with Pitt and UPMC and Pitt is out at Bakery Sq as well.

Right, Pitt is planning to lease a ton of the PAA space from Walnut Capital, correct?

 

[CrazyPaco]

I know, that's why I posted that. They love it there.

It looks sweet. For those that don't know, Pitt is leasing 87 of 197 units in there (for about ~230 students)....so almost half of it.