20th Century Club offiically for sale

[chirurgo]

Right, Pitt is planning to lease a ton of the PAA space from Walnut Capital, correct?

That makes much more sense for taxpayers. Better to have a developer make the investment and keep the property on tax roles than have the university take it off. I think plenty of developers will look at this property as another very good business business partnership with the university. I always loved that building.

I would much rather see a comprehensive plan to better utilize the space that occupies current Posvar Hall. I would pay to see that building get imploded. Really, that entire block. A tremendous waste of space.

 

[CrazyPaco]

it’s a bit comical how Paco has very specific criteria for what Pitt should do, and any variance is a major failure.


But the last major failure , the wrestling coach hire- turned out pretty well.

perhsps Pitt does a bit more due diligence than paco gives them credit for?

The wrestling search was not good at the beginning, as anyone that knew anything about it can tell you, and I did from as close to the horses mouth as you can get. Part of that is the fault of the timing, but at the time, it was extremely concerning. All signs point to it turning out well, not unlike how it turned out with Dixon. And once the decision was made, I was 100% supportive, on these boards in with financial contributions. It seems to be working out, and I love how Gavin is rebuilding. None of that changes the history though of how that search was conducted. But I've explained that multiple times on this board, but you are never one to care about context or nuance when it doesn't serve your purpose. That said, botched coaching searches are not permanent or 100 year lost opportunities on physical infrastructure. At worst with coaching changes, you get Kevin Stallings or for a couple years and then move on. When you tear down a building, it is gone forever. When you pass on a property in the central core of your campus, that opportunity may be gone forever. The ramifications are much longer from the perspective of your physical plant.

Yes, I think some things Pitt's administrations have done are stupid and some things are smart and some things are just ok. One would think most people don't agree with everything that a large institution does. I'd say more see me as an ultimate Pitt homer than the opposite, so I generally reserve my critiques for something I feel is very problematic or has long-term implications, and I've certainly spent my share of time explaining the rationale for Pitt decisions that I didn't even necessarily agree with. I'm sure Pitt has due diligence on things but that doesn't mean I still need to agree with it. This is a board for opinions. Mine can be wrong, and have been wrong. I haven't seen anything to change my mind on not getting the PAA though, and I certainly haven't seen anything to change my mind on trying to preserve the most significant historical architectural elements in the development outlined in the new master plan. The difference is the latter can still be affected for the better, which, in my opinion, would benefit Pitt long and short term in regards to their campus development.

 

[CrazyPaco]

That makes much more sense for taxpayers. Better to have a developer make the investment and keep the property on tax roles than have the university take it off. I think plenty of developers will look at this property as another very good business business partnership with the university. I always loved that building.

I would much rather see a comprehensive plan to better utilize the space that occupies current Posvar Hall. I would pay to see that building get imploded. Really, that entire block. A tremendous waste of space.

PAA was never on the tax rolls. Yes, it makes better sense for the taxpayers to have it go on the tax rolls, but I do not see where it makes sense for the university, long term. Costs and development issues are short term problems. My concern is the university's best interest over the long-term, and I believe not having control over that parcel over the long-term could come back to haunt it.

Many universities buy properties and them long-term lease them to developers and then the university leases space back in those facilities from the developer. That avoids the up-front building/redevelopment costs but allows the institutions to retain long-term control over the facility/land, and the developer may pay tax on it. Pitt has even done this for things like the Rand Building. That is a long-term solution that I wish had been explored if the renovation or operation costs were an issue.

Posvar; it isn't going anywhere. They've been putting a lot of money into renovating it and there are plans to expand it. It houses a large chunk of the university. I get people look at the first floor lobby and think that is a waste of space...because that was built to serve as an event/indoor gathering space...but there a lot more in that building.

But Posvar does speak to the dangers of demolishing historic structures. There was a plan to preserve parts of Forbes Field. How would that have looked if the exoskeleton of Forbes Field was incorporated into a building as opposed to Posvar's brutalism?

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

The wrestling search was not good at the beginning, as anyone that knew anything about it can tell you, and I did from as close to the horses mouth as you can get. Part of that is the fault of the timing, but at the time, it was extremely concerning. All signs point to it turning out well, not unlike how it turned out with Dixon. And once the decision was made, I was 100% supportive, on these boards in with financial contributions. It seems to be working out, and I love how Gavin is rebuilding. None of that changes the history though of how that search was conducted. But I've explained that multiple times on this board, but you are never one to care about context or nuance when it doesn't serve your purpose. That said, botched coaching searches are not permanent or 100 year lost opportunities on physical infrastructure. At worst with coaching changes, you get Kevin Stallings or for a couple years and then move on. When you tear down a building, it is gone forever. When you pass on a property in the central core of your campus, that opportunity may be gone forever. The ramifications are much longer from the perspective of your physical plant.

Yes, I think some things Pitt's administrations have done are stupid and some things are smart and some things are just ok. One would think most people don't agree with everything that a large institution does. I'd say more see me as an ultimate Pitt homer than the opposite, so I generally reserve my critiques for something I feel is very problematic or has long-term implications, and I've certainly spent my share of time explaining the rationale for Pitt decisions that I didn't even necessarily agree with. I'm sure Pitt has due diligence on things but that doesn't mean I still need to agree with it. This is a board for opinions. Mine can be wrong, and have been wrong. I haven't seen anything to change my mind on not getting the PAA though, and I certainly haven't seen anything to change my mind on trying to preserve the most significant historical architectural elements in the development outlined in the new master plan. The difference is the latter can still be affected for the better, which, in my opinion, would benefit Pitt long and short term in regards to their campus development.

Yawn

it must be so frustrating to have so much expertise and no avenue to utilize it

whining and gnashing of teeth

 

[CrazyPaco]

Yawn

it must be so frustrating to have so much expertise and no avenue to utilize it

whining and gnashing of teeth

That sounds like every user of every single message board and twitter account in the history of the internet. Lots of expertise here from football to basketball to good old locker room discussions. Not on this site, but also in the real world, I've have at times been able to use my true expertise along with more amateur knowledge on other topics in various ways to benefit the university over the years. I'm pretty comfortable with some of my avenues, although admittedly they don't exist like they used to since life has gotten in the way.

Still, one step is to alert people, particularly interested stakeholders which are alumni, to a potential problem or opportunity. When people start asking questions, sometimes explanatory reasoning is given and that alleviates concerns, or it helps facilitate a change in direction, or...in some cases...nothing changes and decisions plow forward regardless. That's just life. You appear to view the university as an institution that has never had a misstep, so we shouldn't discuss anything but wins. The history of Pitt is filled with administrators that have just known best and makes great decisions every time. It isn't like this is the 100th thread in the last 12 months about an on-campus stadium, there is actually something to discuss or think about here.

 

[chirurgo]

That sounds like every user of every single message board and twitter account in the history of the internet. Lots of expertise here from football to basketball to good old locker room discussions. Not on this site, but also in the real world, I've have at times been able to use my true expertise along with more amateur knowledge on other topics in various ways to benefit the university over the years. I'm pretty comfortable with some of my avenues, although admittedly they don't exist like they used to since life has gotten in the way.

Still, one step is to alert people, particularly interested stakeholders which are alumni, to a potential problem or opportunity. When people start asking questions, sometimes explanatory reasoning is given and that alleviates concerns, or it helps facilitate a change in direction, or...in some cases...nothing changes and decisions plow forward regardless. That's just life. You appear to view the university as an institution that has never had a misstep, so we shouldn't discuss anything but wins. The history of Pitt is filled with administrators that have just known best and makes great decisions every time. It isn't like this is the 100th thread in the last 12 months about an on-campus stadium, there is actually something to discuss or think about here.

Agree. This is an important discussion. Regardless of how you feel about this specific building, it impacts the campus as a whole. This is a city campus with finite space. Any building in the footprint of the campus impacts the whole. There is a current administration with a vision. It is up to the alumni to sometimes focus/refocus that vision.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

RIP Mineral Industries Building.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

Also, at some point Pitt will get 314 South Bellefield (PPS building). The school district might not have the motivation now with a small budget surplus to sell, but at some point it will. It's already well set up for Pitt's needs, more so than some of the other buildings being discussed here.

 

[CrazyPaco]

RIP Mineral Industries Building.

Yeah, that one I was okay with demoing. Really not a lot there architecturally as they didn't fulfill the original Acropolis plan on that one at all (ran out of $).

Now old Pennsylvania Hall, that had some nicer elements. They supposedly saved the freeze of Asclepius...which should have been preserved. But where is it? Sitting in some university storage facility somewhere. I'd love to see that incorporated into the renovation of Scaife Hall that is planned, or just installed as a monument on the upper campus, or at least displayed in Frick Fine Arts.

 

[tetonpanther]

wrong again Paco. The PAA was owned by the Pittsburgh athletic association Land company. It was taxable and we paid a shit load of delinquent taxes at closing. Again you are in over your head. learn your role.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Also, at some point Pitt will get 314 South Bellefield (PPS building). The school district might not have the motivation now with a small budget surplus to sell, but at some point it will. It's already well set up for Pitt's needs, more so than some of the other buildings being discussed here.

They have actually publicly discussed the possibility of the sale of that building. It didn't happen. But that is also a must get. So was the PAA, so who knows what would happen. Really, anything ringing the Cathedral Lawn should be an absolute must get if it becomes available.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I'm a big neoclassical fan though not all of it is well done (though that's true of anything -- there are plenty of fascinating Brutalist buildings despite its reputation, including some wonderful social housing in Europe.)

 

[tetonpanther]

CP shucking and jiving when you pull his card. You don't know that deal. Don't act like your do.

 

[HailtoPitt]

it’s a bit comical how Paco has very specific criteria for what Pitt should do, and any variance is a major failure.


But the last major failure , the wrestling coach hire- turned out pretty well.

perhsps Pitt does a bit more due diligence than paco gives them credit for?

That does it. To ignore you go!

 

[CrazyPaco]

wrong again Paco. The PAA was owned by the Pittsburgh athletic association Land company. It was taxable and we paid a shit load of delinquent taxes at closing. Again you are in over your head. learn your role.

You are right. It was on the tax rolls.

That still doesn't provide any information why this was better for the university long-term or why my opinion should change on that.

But since you are with Walnut Captial, or Lionstone, why don't you change my mind on that. I know I feel great about a historic building in the middle of Pitt's campus being held by a Houston investment company. How is this better for the university long-term?

I'll patiently wait for you to explain why my opinion should change on why it is not better for the university to control those parcels. That is your wheelhouse, right? Are you going to step up to your "role"?

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

i love how you guys can fight over anything. topic of a building may go up for sale in Oakland and it only took til the second page of posts in this thread for you guys to break out name calling, insults and threats of ignoring each other.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

No disrespect! The building has functional obsolescence and must incredibly expensive to refit into classrooms or offices plus the upkeep. I suppose given that it is adjacent to Schenley Farms it probably will need to stay in tact, I do not see the appeal to the building.

Hell no

Keep the building it’s beautiful

We had our wedding reception there

Historical site

 

[CrazyPaco]

No disrespect! The building has functional obsolescence and must incredibly expensive to refit into classrooms or offices plus the upkeep. I suppose given that it is adjacent to Schenley Farms it probably will need to stay in tact, I do not see the appeal to the building.

Half of Pitt's buildings are repurposed historic structures. I don't know what value there is to the interior of the club, but one could at least integrate the facade into what otherwise is an entirely new building. This is done all the time in other cities. Whole streets have had their facades preserved in DC (much lest interesting facades than what line O'Hara) while the actual building that you walk into is a large modern structure and these projects have turned out fantastic and preserve the historical character of the neighborhood. It is also a way to keep preservationists satisfied to a degree while building what is otherwise a completely new modern structure (and in DC they get tax incentives). But the club is part of the historic district, so showing sensitivity to the history will make any redevelopment project pass review easier. It is a flat out nice looking building, and although classical revival in fitting with the O'Hara St social club character and former Acropolis campus design, the exterior stone work and coloring matches the Cathedral of Learning making it very complementary to the existing historical campus buildings.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

^^^^ That is the best view of the building This side view on Bigelow is much less flattering. If Pitt were to bye it, what do you see its use as?

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

At the risk of making everyone my enemy, Walnut Capital has abused their political connections to get TIFs to avoid taxes and Pitt has dragged Peduto along for years to avoid a PILOT as well. Meanwhile ordinary citizens pay both a wage and property tax to subsidize all these non taxed properties.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

No argument here! Peduto only cares about the tax revenue driven in.....employee vs real estate or both....guess which one of the three usually wins?

At the risk of making everyone my enemy, Walnut Capital has abused their political connections to get TIFs to avoid taxes and Pitt has dragged Peduto along for years to avoid a PILOT as well. Meanwhile ordinary citizens pay both a wage and property tax to subsidize all these non taxed properties.

 

[CrazyPaco]

^^^^ That is the best view of the building This side view on Bigelow is much less flattering. If Pitt were to bye it, what do you see its use as?

Pitt, in their master plan, is planning to knock down the O'Hara Student Center (former Concordia club) and build another student center somewhere near Posvar. Now, I greatly disagree with demo the O'Hara SC, which they carefully historically preserved and updated for use just a few years ago, and vehemently disagree with at least not preserving its facade, the 20th Century Club could serve as a replacement student center.

Pitt has also solicited bid for construction of a new conference center/hotel on the parking lot the existing University Club. That is needed, but perhaps the location could be changed and the Concordia Club integrated into development. They seem to always need meeting space, and it is ready made for that.

Or gut it, but preserve the facade, and it could serve as any number of functions from residence hall to academic/office building.

 

[HailtoPitt]

If Pitt would have bought the PAA, and then the Twentieth Century Club building, they would be pretty close to owning the property surrounding the new Pitt Stadium idea by James Santelli. Then they could have worked on having a stadium facade compliment the historic architecture, and cleverly connect those buildings.

 

[CrazyPaco]

At the risk of making everyone my enemy, Walnut Capital has abused their political connections to get TIFs to avoid taxes and Pitt has dragged Peduto along for years to avoid a PILOT as well. Meanwhile ordinary citizens pay both a wage and property tax to subsidize all these non taxed properties.

Pitt has actually paid PILOTS previously. But you would be hard pressed to convince me Pitt actually should. First, no peer university pays taxes and most don't pay PILOTS, so anything paid is a loss of money that could otherwise be reinvested in academic (or, for this board, even athletic) programs or projects, or even...gasp...reducing tuition costs. When you boil it down, PILOTS are typically voluntary arrangements made by legally tax-exempt entities only to appease the wrath of local governments. Pitt already subsidizes services that are provided by the city...for instance it has its own police force which patrols streets off campus, it has paid part of the salaries of city housing inspectors to cover non-university properties, it has subsidized infrastructure projects on city-owned land. Pitt only has about 150 acres of land, which for the size and scope of Pitt, is one of the smallest urban schools by acreage anywhere, and the return on economic development is about $4 billion while generating about $200 million in tax revenue. I don't believe Pitt owes the city a thing, other than it needs to play nice in because the city has say over nearly any project that it wants to undertake.

 

[pittchagg]

On a semi-related campus note, it looks like the Victory Heights project is moving along: https://buildingpittsburgh.com/2019...-rates-pittsburgh-construction-market-awards/

 

[CrazyPaco]

On a semi-related campus note, it looks like the Victory Heights project is moving along: https://buildingpittsburgh.com/2019...-rates-pittsburgh-construction-market-awards/

That's awesome...that for sharing that.

 

[Slick Manager of Champs]

Yawn

it must be so frustrating to have so much expertise and no avenue to utilize it

whining and gnashing of teeth

I remember some of your expertise, like complaining that Matt Canada was a slag heap hire.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

Politicians want tax revenue to spend with historical preservation cause they are usually well to do folks with no concept of reality and have the time to impose their will!

 

[tetonpanther]

Nothing like CP trashing one of Pitt's most valued developmental partners from 800 miles away. Learn your role CP. You are in over your head.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

Help us with the connection of Pitt and WC. Yes we rent space from them but other than landlord and tenant what do they mean to Pitt?

Nothing like CP trashing one of Pitt's most valued developmental partners from 800 miles away. Learn your role CP. You are in over your head.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I remember some of your expertise, like complaining that Matt Canada was a slag heap hire.

3 different gigs in 3 seasons and unemployed. Currently .

he’s magical

 

[Slick Manager of Champs]

3 different gigs in 3 seasons and unemployed. Currently .

he’s magical

he was here, and I think still has the record as highest paid assistant of all time while at LSU.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Nothing like CP trashing one of Pitt's most valued developmental partners from 800 miles away. Learn your role CP. You are in over your head.

You have provided zero information or insight why it is better for this parcel be in the hands of a Texas investment company rather than the university over the long term. Other than, I guess based on your apparent affiliation with the developer, that it might have cost you a fat bonus if it wasn’t. And I have to guess, because you’ve provided nothing of any actual substance to the conversation.

I actually have no general issue with Walnut Capital nor their acquisition and renovation of the PAA which appears to be a good plan and going well. My qualm is with the University for failing to acquire it because of, from what was conveyed to me, an apparent lack of effort. If you have some insight into that, you should provide that or I will continue to beat this drum in the hopes the university doesn’t drop the ball again on similar parcels, although none are really similar to this one. I viewed it as a 100-year decision for the university’s campus development, not a 20 year investment project.

Keep guessing the mileage, maybe you get it right one time.