Being top heavy with freshmen, this program seems to be challenged going forward as far as bringing in new talent. We have 3 ships open next year with 2 already filled. The following year we will only have one player leaving, JWF. That is if no one leaves the program early. Looking at the roster the only guy that seems to fit that category right now would be Samson George. Add Peace or Terrell Brown if they show no improvement. The rest of the young guys seem to have enough upside to stick around. So who gets jettisoned if we want to bring in more than one player in 2 years?
Class balance...
- Thread starter wbrpanther
- Start date
Based on track record, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a lot of attrition, again
I would imagine we will have to have some departures from the backcourt. Next year with Carr, Stewart, Davis, Kingsby as well as Ellison, JWF and Stephenson who are ideally wings and not small ball 4s, it is too many perimeter employees for too few minutes, so the likelihood is that there will be some departures. Hopefully it is because the cream rises to the top.
IMO all those guys should be back. Kingsby and Carr are the two pg's, Davis, Ellison, and
Stewart are the off guards, with Strewart also at the three in certain situations.. Luther's absence is going to be hard to replace, so I can see JWF and Stephen playing the 4 and the three. The problem is we will have no inside presence so JWF and Stephenson will need to spend a lot of time there. The bigs is where I see some attrition .....Peace is a major project, and if he's let go, Brown has to stay as does Chukukwa. I see no place on this team for Samson George, and for that matter Peace, especially if Stallings can land another big or two.
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I agree they should be back, but the truth is that if guys don't see a path to start by their Jr years they usually begin to look elsewhere. Carr, Stewart, Davis are all in the same class, and we will recruit behind them, the odds are that at least one takes off. It is just the way college basketball is now a days. Josh Newkirk would have been a 2 yr starter at Pitt, but he didn't like the minutes he got as a sophomore and bolted
Good point, let's take a look at who these guys are. Carr will be a star here, he ain't going
anywhere. Stewart and Davis have potential, and at worst would be off the bench players,
as they will next year when Ellison arrives. I hope you're right about future recruits maybe beating them out, because if that doesn't happen this program isn't going to challenge in
the ACC.
Peace and Terrell need to show what they can do next year or that will be one area where extra ships come from. They are both projects but Pitt can’t afford to wait 3 or 4 years for their development
The problem is, that's the position that patience needs to be practiced. It's a tough situation.
Yes but its a problem when you have 2 developmental bigs and literally 0 ACC-ready bigs on your roster. Without looking, I'm sure Pitt is the only ACC team without an ACC-ready big.
Yeah well be careful. Because by saying so will cause some to come at you in full force because you're taking shots at Dixon.
Dixon is in large part to blame for that, but I do wonder if Manigault would have been more ready this year than the bigs we brought in.
Who knows, but it probably wasn't a good sign that an 18 year old seemed winded after playing for 3 straight minutes. Maybe there were work ethic or attitude problems with him that outweighed any potential, of which, I personally saw little-to-none being displayed out on the court.
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What happened to Corey Manigault? He announced his transfer in March but I can't find anything on him after that. He was a 4*, he had to land somewhere, right?
And I agree the roster will turnover a lot after this season and probably the season after. I expect 5 new players on the roster next year. We reached a lot to fill out the roster and the guys who aren't playing are practicing to show their potential. Some will move on and we'll get new young guys to try and hit again.
Manigault to me is the biggest question in this whole thing for me. Jamie struggled with landing bigs. Manigault was a good get.
But maybe he was overvalued and thats how we got him? Maybe his off the court issues also contributed to his failure to work out here?
Is this one on Jamie? Or is this one on KS for not being able to coach the kid? Because having a pedigreed 2nd year frontcourt player would help this team.
Sure, but that should be rectified with a year in the training room, which is why development is important. I didn't see much last year either, but I havent seen much from any of the bigs we brought in this year, and most are currently older than Manigault is now.
He was suspended for a few games, and then got eased in. That team plays a deep rotation, and he got minutes last game, shooting 4-6, 1-1 from 3pt and 3-3 on FTs. He is going to be back in P5 next year.
Stallings had 2 recruiting classes and literally 11 scholarships open to find one
He failed.
I wouldn't have gotten rid of him given the alternates that were brought in, especially if it truly cost us Thompson.
However, if there was drama behind the scenes, then that is possibly a different story. With a completely new roster, largely of Stallings' makings, you can't have a hold-over recruit (I consider Corey a JD recruit) with any attitude issues, IMO.
I'm not blaming KS. I disagree with him, but I'm not blaming him, but he is paid millions to be a head coach, I'm a guy who pays out of pocket to write my opinions. This thread is called "Class Balance" we ran out an entire class, two of which were top 150 recruits, one of which was over 6'-8". One was a PG and one was a big man. This year, we lack PGs and Big men. We replaced the big guy with older, less recruited big men, who also have not shown much, but now people are saying preach patience. One of those big men have played more than the guy we ran out and shown just as little, but will continue to get playing time, and patience from some because he is not Dixons.
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I think it depends on the drama, and the issues. If you are expecting no attitude issues, no drama, then you probably need to become a fan of Army or Navy, otherwise there is always some issues. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a number of guys annoyed last year by limited touches when they played, inconsistent minutes, playing out of position, being called out for effort by the coach, being blown out on the home floor, having a disengaged fan base, pushing out an esteemed coach, etc. There was a lot to be discontented with last year, and a guy like Manigault was 18 and playing for someone he didn't think he would be. Those kids are probably upset at JD and KS.
I don't disagree with this, however, I don't blame KS for starting fresh as I can't imagine guys with attitudes like Artis and Young could have rubbed off very well on the freshman, freshman who were all probably extremely frustrated and expecting "better"; plus both were completely sold on Pitt by a different coach. Some relationships are beyond repair. And I don't think either freshman showed enough to warrant any attitude headaches.
For me, it's not a KS or JD thing. I'm always willing to have more patience with a project big (Peace and Brown both look the athletic part). Manigault, while technically a big, just didn't look the part of a guy with a ton of 'banger upside' to me. Seemed like he wanted to float ala Mike Young.
Thats all fair, truth is none of us know the more nuanced parts of it. I had just hoped that if we were pushing out a big that had the offers he had less than a year earlier it would be because we had some good ones coming in. The group of Brown, Peace, Chukwuka and George is really underwhelming from a recruiting standpoint, and that has shown in the performance as well (though the sample size is limited). I really hope we add another big along with Golden, and of that level.
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So, if you know enough of Manigault to make that assessment then please enlighten me on what you are seeing out of Chukwuka, Brown, Ilegomah and George as the 4 guys 6-7" or above that we brought in?
We are primarily starting Chukwuka who had all of 1 JC game were he scored more than 10 points last year, and is a full 2 yrs older than Manigault. The fact that they are playing him means he is likely outperforming the other bigs. How bad must the other bigs be in order to be losing playing time to Chukwuka?
People can dismiss Manigault all they want, but he will be back on a roster at a major college next year and it will be interesting to see what he does. I get that this board soured on him, but most on these boards viewed him as a good pickup, and he was really young, like one of the youngest in college basketball when he arrived on campus, turned 18 as the year was beginning. 3 of the 4 we brought in are actually older than him, shouldn't they then be more ready than he was last year?
Chukwuka 10/28/1996
Ilegomah 11/17/1997
Brown 6/8/1998
Manigault 10/22/1998
George 11/23/1998
First off after working with a player for a season don't you think the hc and staff get an idea of the players potential and willingness to work to get better . Second both Brown and Peace are 6ft 10 not 8 everything being equal I'll take 4 yrs of a raw 6ft 10 guy over 3 of a raw 6tft 8 who showed nothing . Finally there appears that therr was some conflict between the two .
Ps Brown made a nice little baby hook shot in one of the games and shows nice form from the line .In time he'll contribute
Kene is playing meaningful minutes at Pitt - He would be playing ahead of Manigault this season. The fact that he is older can actually grow into a benefit as he gets stronger and gains more experience. Pitt won with older, more physically mature and experienced players in the past.
Manigault looked to move better than Brown (but could only play in short spurts due to his lack of commitment to conditioning.) That seems to me to be the only advantage he had over Brown. Brown seems more fundamental and less frenzied. Brown also seems to be a player with some post up game, something Manigault either did not possess or had no desire to exhibit. Stallings did not like what he saw in Manigault almost immediately. There must have been a reason for that. I will be interested where Manigault ends up. You think his TCU offer is legit? The only other school mentioned is Washington State. That isn't all that impressive. That offer was before his suspension. Does it even still exist?
Lets see what happens with Peace and Samson. Stallings has indicated that he sees potential in Peace. Stallings has really had nothing to say about Samson.
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Kene couldn't see meaningful playing time at his JC, and didn't perform that well when he did. He was a 5th or 6th option for Pitt. He is our tallest guy on the court much of the time but can't rebound, jump or defend. He is a detriment nearly every minute he is out there.
I just keep bringing in Manigault because I am amazed at the hypocrisy of this board. Manigault is considered an absolute bust after his freshmen year and proof that Dixon was a loser and destroyed Pitt basketball. Then someone (often the same people) will say Stallings is turning this team around and bringing in people of promise and that we have to be patient with these young people.
While both statements may be true, I think the same logic should have been applied to Manigault and Kitchart. I don't like running out kids after their Frosh year who were previously good recruits, it is bad business.
Those that followed Jaylen Bond remember the impact that his treatment had for Pitt in its Philly recruiting efforts. I would imagine that Stallings won't be recruiting well in the DC area and certainly with Team Takeover. The relationship with Manigault lost him Aaron Thompson, so you already see the impact.
Now, if he pushed out a young developmental big, for someone who was a clear upgrade that is one thing, but we had to dig really low to fill our spots.
My sense is that Stallings swung and miss far more than he expected last year.
Heres what your missing you have no idea what was wrong with CM and KS relationship , but we do know that he showed nothing last yr. We do know that his only alternative was to go juco . We do know that he had off court issues that got him suspended this yr . Now if your talking about Birch like talent leaving now your talking a different story .
Peace just showed you a lot more in the first half than CM did all yr , Brown also .
A school like Pitt will always miss more than they succeed on the recruiting trail if there going after top prospects .
Freshman transfer all the time for a variety of reasons , don’t sweat it when guys who can’t play leave .
But the hypocrisy on this board exists in the logic about these players that we have brought in. People are saying we missed on Manigault, an 18 yr old (when he left) with better offers out of HS than any of the big guys we brought in, and better offers right now than any of the big guys we brought in. People are stuck on the narrative that CM sucked, while trying to find signs of hope in the guys we brought in. Those big guys combined to go 6-20 (and 1-4 FTs) for a total of 14pts in 80 mins of play (and I included Stephenson in there because he had to play the 4). And on the positive they did have 23 boards and 5 blocks, but we are getting to evaluate them with consistent minutes played. CM played behind Young, Jeter and Luther last year, and saw his minutes in spurts of 2 minutes, hard to evaluate there.
People say where Wilson, Manigault and Kitchart transferred is evidence of how bad they were. Where do you think Peace, George, Brown, and Chukwuka would be transferring to? Their offers going in to this year were no better really than where these guys transferred to.
you are right that we don't know what happened with CM and KS relationship. But I do put a lot on the HC to develop, coach and create a team. We also dont know that CM sucked either, and the narrative by many on this board is that Dixon sucked, his recruiting sucked, and we cleaned house because it was necessary. I disagree that getting rid of Wilson, Kitchart and Manigault (even if they had some issues) to bring in George, Chukwuka and Boykins was some necessary improvement.
And its great that Peace had a good few minutes against McNeese St, its exciting that he played 16 minutes (though lets be clear his per 40 would have been 7.5 pts, 5 rebounds, 5 turnovers and a great 7.5 blocks), that is great for his development, but he is getting those opportunities because we are a very bad team, very very bad.
We should get you a Cory Manguilt juco jersey for your birthday . He’s not here and for the life of me I don’t see what you thought you saw in him . Get over it he’s gone as are Wilson and Kithcart . While you won’t believe me Pitt would be no better with them on the roster . Like I’ve said before worry about the quality at the top of the roster not the bottom .
I will say that I don't think Manigault was a good fit for Stallings.
I don't know if Stallings recruited him because he misevaluated him, or because he felt the fan pressure to keep that 2016 class intact, or if he just didn't have many other options, but I don't think he really fits anything that Stallings likes in his big men.
That's not to say that he couldn't work out or wouldn't have found a role, but I think the poor fit combined with some personality clashes made it inevitable that he was going to be gone.
I should also add that I think Samson George is also a weird fit for Stallings. So I think there can be a debate about whether it would be better to have Manigault probably being more talented but potentially not clicking with Stallings, or Samson George.
I don't know if Stallings recruited him because he misevaluated him, or because he felt the fan pressure to keep that 2016 class intact, or if he just didn't have many other options, but I don't think he really fits anything that Stallings likes in his big men.
That's not to say that he couldn't work out or wouldn't have found a role, but I think the poor fit combined with some personality clashes made it inevitable that he was going to be gone.
I should also add that I think Samson George is also a weird fit for Stallings. So I think there can be a debate about whether it would be better to have Manigault probably being more talented but potentially not clicking with Stallings, or Samson George.
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Look, I'll take the gift. I can pretend it was an Earl Manigault jersey. I know I'm on my soapbox here, and it isn't even about Manigault. To me I am annoyed by the hypocrisy of people saying Dixon sucked, this program had no chance, while being OK with Kene Chukwuka who couldn't get minutes on a mediocre JC as a contributing big man on what is likely the worst Pitt team in my lifetime. We are looking for silver linings while the coach we previously had is taking one of the most consistently mediocre (to bad) P5 teams in the country in to a Top 10 ranking.
Pitt had something really good, even if it slipped, and the fan base wasn't just disappointed they were calling for heads, as they started to do with Walt Harris and Dave Wannstedt, and then we fall back to a worse situation and start viewing the team because of their "promise" rather than a consistently competitive team with a really good coach.
I wasn’t for a coaching change , but JDs recruiting was at an uncompetitive ACC level for the last three yrs of his tenure here and that is undeniable. Cam is the only player who left who will be missed , but remember JD took a flyer on him . No major programs were interested in him unless you consider Rice a major program . This roster is full of Cam like reaches .
With all the negativity surrounding the program it’s a wonder anyone of note would consider coming here to play and I think KS did what he had to do in filling his roster . Maybe it’s hard for everyone to grasp , but Pitt isn’t a major player in the ACC , it has no talent rich local recruiting area where kids grow up wanting to be a Pitt Panther bb player and they play by the rules . It’s not an attractive job .
Those who openly root for KS failure so he can be fired are delusional in their thinking that Pitt will then upgrade the position with a big time hire . Pitt will not allocate the resources necessary to do so . The young up and comers who’ve turned a mid major around would be risking their future walking into this mess . The Pitt HC position isn’t unlike that of the Duquesne Dukes where everyone who comes there fails and needs to move back to the assistant ranks to stay in coaching . Root for KS to succeed it’s our best hope of seeing winning bb anytime soon .
JD now has highly capable assistants and is at a school that put their money where their mouth is ...they want to win . Can you really say that about Pitt ? Unless he would’ve brought in some major talent this yr this team would suck , Nix and Your Bud at center Cam and Luther at forward , Kithcart , Milli and Wilson at guard and no bench . JD now is also coaching in a talent rich area . Without good players any coach is hard pressed to compete and that includes JD , he wasn’t bringing in the players here where he now is at TCU .
There’s no guarantee that throwing money around will bring a winning programs to Pitt , but it’s seems obvious that Pitts way of doing business doesn’t bread success . Forget W/L records for a second just look at attendence it tells you all you need to know .
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