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I never suggested that. You said if we can't be the best, we should shut it down. I just wondered if you held the same philosophy in your own life. I used a ridiculous scenario of all or nothing to try to show you how stupid your real suggestion of all or nothing was. Of course, you haven't shown to be a very strong reader, so there's that.

I think we have found some common ground though. We should go out and hire George Mason's AD. They get it.

You are the one with serious reading comprehension issues. I never said that if Pitt can't be the best the program should be shut down. I said that if you aren't willing to TRY to get to that point you might as well shut it down. My God...read with your eyes.

You are a lunatic.
 
In an era were Pitt ran as clean a program as there was in the country Jamie Dixons eight year run in the BE is a remarkable achievement . There's also no denying his failures in advancing further in the NCAA tournament is a black mark in what was shaping up to be a HOF career. His teams always lacked that one player that could put the team on his back and carry them to a final four or national championship . Maybe it was because they didn't have a Golden Panthers booster club to smooth the way for that missing link .
I wasn't for Jamie leaving ,but any true follower of the program couldn't help but notice the steady decline in on court talent and results the last five years . It's a testament to his coaching abilities that he was able to get the results that he did out of the players on his roster. Each year it was becoming more evident the difficulty he was having in acquiring the necessary talent to compete in the ACC .This years roster is so flawed that I doubt that even JD could get much more out of them , they just don't have the pieces . The two freshman will prove not to be major contributors unless they show remarkable improvement in the next few years . You can put blame on KS for not getting the most out of this years roster ,but Pitt was one injury away from collapse all season . Now with two guys injured, Luther out and Youngs effectiveness diminish PITT has no answers .
It's also impossible to ignore the empty seats at the Pete . After all Pitt bb is a business , paying a coach top 15 money without top 15 results who has a looong term contract isn't an ideal business situation for you to be in . As a business decision to get out from under a crippling long term contract would be a Godsend in most cases. The problem is in how you proceed from there and Pitt did what it always does they took the route that saved them money which will eventually cost them many times the amount of money saved . The Pete will be empty next year donations will dry up and now to change coaches will become even more expensive . Can you see Pitt eating KS contract and spending the necessary money to get a coach who will invigorate the fan base , I can't . It could be long period of time before PITT bb will be enjoyable to watch .
I'd have given JD two maybe three more seasons to get things back on track and if I was the AD I'd have been supportive until I was 100% convinced his best days were behind him . If he still wanted to leave this year I'd been ok with it , but Pitt needed to hire that "splash guy " whoever he was . Barnes will be remembered as well as the chancellor as the guys who brought Pitt bb down to the BC line . It won't be for letting a coach go whose best years here were behind him it was for hiring the wrong guy to replace him .
 
You are the one with serious reading comprehension issues. I never said that if Pitt can't be the best the program should be shut down. I said that if you aren't willing to TRY to get to that point you might as well shut it down. My God...read with your eyes.

You are a lunatic.
Define trying. How was Pitt not trying? Is Pitt trying even harder now by getting rid of Dixon?
 
Define trying. How was Pitt not trying? Is Pitt trying even harder now by getting rid of Dixon?

Ummm...coming to the conclusion that a coaching change is necessary is typically the most obvious and tangible definition of trying to achieve a level of success that has never been attained.
 
Ummm...coming to the conclusion that a coaching change is necessary is typically the most obvious and tangible definition of trying to achieve a level of success that has never been attained.
Great, I am glad we are so much closer to your goal now that we got rid of that slug Dixon.
 
Ummm...coming to the conclusion that a coaching change is necessary is typically the most obvious and tangible definition of trying to achieve a level of success that has never been attained.
When you have a program with limited resources which PITT is compared to the big boys where your money needs to be is in having great assistant coaches who can recruit . Was Jamie's budget limited as far as hiring the guys he wanted , was Stallings ? I don't know the answers , but it's kind of ironic how much better TCUs recruiting under JD is vs his recruiting here !
 
When you have a program with limited resources which PITT is compared to the big boys where your money needs to be is in having great assistant coaches who can recruit . Was Jamie's budget limited as far as hiring the guys he wanted , was Stallings ? I don't know the answers , but it's kind of ironic how much better TCUs recruiting under JD is vs his recruiting here !

Absolutely true.
 
Since you are having a hard time following along, I'll help you out. The reference to being spineless and lacking guts was in context to investing in the hardwork and financial commitment necessary to achieve greatness beyond what has been enjoyed at Pitt.

But no, you immediately think that the only way one can reach greater success at Pitt than what Jamie Dixon delivered is through running afoul of NCAA regulations and drawing sanctions. Which is 100% certifiable rubbish.

You and Kiwi and others of your ilk are turning into the same Paterno-esqe sycophants that we have skewered here for years. For whatever reason, your entire value system is built upon the infallibility of a man who is gone and is never coming back.

You need to get over it. Or, may I suggest just flipping on the VCR and watching the 2009 Elite 8 game against Nova over and over and over again. Just be sure to turn it off with 5 seconds left. Because that is the high-water mark of Pitt basketball...and without Jamie Dixon we will never get there again.

We will never have two #1 seeds in three years again, in our lifetimes. I would make that bet all day. Its almost inconceivable. Can we reach a Final 4, sure. Did those number one seeds flame out? Unfortunately so. But the I would say the 4 year run (From the BET win, the elite 8 and a 1 seed, a #3 seed when it looked like we would miss the NCAAT in Dec, and then a #1 seed), that is Pitt football under Jackie Sherrill. Just a sustained level of success that we have maybe a 5% chance of ever recapturing. It doesn't mean you shut down the program, it just means acknowledging that the window has probably closed.

And I'm not even mad about it, I'm glad I saw it. Most non blue-bloods never get a window like that. I always be thankful for JD for that run, regardless of the tournament. He wasn't infallible, but the vitriol toward our best coach ever was something I never quite understood.

JD leaving, whether forced out or leaving on his own, is history at this point. I think we are all horrified at the hire of KS and how the year has gone, but this will be a rough couple of years, then he'll be gone, and then the process begins again.
 
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But you did say Pitt needed to make a change, correct?

Yes. I absolutely thought it was probably best for both parties to go in different directions after last year. Jamie Dixon made an excellent decision going to a program with little success and lower expectations and near a deeper natural recruiting base. I suspect that the move will rejuvenate his career and he will find some success. Jamie Dixon is a very good coach.

I also believe that Pitt had the opportunity to address a number of the failings of the basketball program with a new hire. Pitt basketball had not plateaued under Dixon. It was regressing, as evidenced by failing recruiting, empty seats and a stable of assistant coaches that left a lot to be desired. The Kevin Stallings hire did nothing to address those problems. And while Stallings' capacity to correct the on the court performance is yet to be determined, the early returns sure don't look promising.

Again, Pitt's failure to hire a better replacement for Dixon does not disprove the fact that Pitt can and should aspire to want more success than Dixon delivered.
 
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We will never have two #1 seeds in three years again, in our lifetimes. I would make that bet all day. Its almost inconceivable. Can we reach a Final 4, sure. Did those number one seeds flame out? Unfortunately so. But the I would say the 4 year run (From the BET win, the elite 8 and a 1 seed, a #3 seed when it looked like we would miss the NCAAT in Dec, and then a #1 seed), that is Pitt football under Jackie Sherrill. Just a sustained level of success that we have maybe a 5% chance of ever recapturing. It doesn't mean you shut down the program, it just means acknowledging that the window has probably closed.

And I'm not even mad about it, I'm glad I saw it. Most non blue-bloods never get a window like that. I always be thankful for JD for that run, regardless of the tournament. He wasn't infallible, but the vitriol toward our best coach ever was something I never quite understood.

JD leaving, whether forced out or leaving on his own, is history at this point. I think we are all horrified at the hire of KS and how the year has gone, but this will be a rough couple of years, then he'll be gone, and then the process begins again.

Yeah I agree with just about everything you just wrote Whirly. I just think that the "vitriol toward our best coach ever" is slightly exaggerated. By and large Jamie Dixon was lauded during his tenure for not only his performance on the court, but his citizenship within the community, and his genuine affection for Pittsburgh. I would't let a few very vocal jabbering jaws on here distort your recollection.

It is also possible to genuinely appreciate Jamie Dixon for his successes, especially that period roughly 10 years ago and come to the conclusion that perhaps his best opportunity for success here was behind him.
 
You're right...know your place Pitt. Now go sit in the corner, right? Thanks Mike...good read. Now we know better.
I didn't write anything like that. Ok, have a good day. I won't go back and forth with someone who keeps making crap up anymore.
 
Yeah I agree with just about everything you just wrote Whirly. I just think that the "vitriol toward our best coach ever" is slightly exaggerated. By and large Jamie Dixon was lauded during his tenure for not only his performance on the court, but his citizenship within the community, and his genuine affection for Pittsburgh. I would't let a few very vocal jabbering jaws on here distort your recollection.

It is also possible to genuinely appreciate Jamie Dixon for his successes, especially that period roughly 10 years ago and come to the conclusion that perhaps his best opportunity for success here was behind him.

Yea, vitriol is probably too strong. I think when you are on this forum long enough the "vocal minority" gets into your head.

He was a really good coach, it was a really good run. End of story.

I think the difference I have is I think that he was more likely to get whatever he lost back here, than a new coach. Especially Kevin Stallings. I'm not mad that JD left, but that coaching search was an all-time joke, as is our current coach.
 
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Yea, vitriol is probably too strong. I think when you are on this forum long enough the "vocal minority" gets into your head.

He was a really good coach, it was a really good run. End of story.

I think the difference I have is I think that he was more likely to get whatever he lost back here, than a new coach. Especially Kevin Stallings. I'm not mad that JD left, but that coaching search was an all-time joke, as is our current coach.

Without question.
 
We will never have two #1 seeds in three years again, in our lifetimes. I would make that bet all day. Its almost inconceivable. Can we reach a Final 4, sure. Did those number one seeds flame out? Unfortunately so. But the I would say the 4 year run (From the BET win, the elite 8 and a 1 seed, a #3 seed when it looked like we would miss the NCAAT in Dec, and then a #1 seed), that is Pitt football under Jackie Sherrill. Just a sustained level of success that we have maybe a 5% chance of ever recapturing. It doesn't mean you shut down the program, it just means acknowledging that the window has probably closed.

And I'm not even mad about it, I'm glad I saw it. Most non blue-bloods never get a window like that. I always be thankful for JD for that run, regardless of the tournament. He wasn't infallible, but the vitriol toward our best coach ever was something I never quite understood.

JD leaving, whether forced out or leaving on his own, is history at this point. I think we are all horrified at the hire of KS and how the year has gone, but this will be a rough couple of years, then he'll be gone, and then the process begins again.
I have been saying the same for 5 years, I agree.
 
Watching this from afar I have to say it's probably really really the right time for those bashing Dixon or fans of Dixon to just STFU... and I've argued this from both sides but this is a goddamn disaster....

Dixon biggest problem was not being able to retain assistants and many of those assistants were vital to recruiting....

I was all for giving Stallings a shot but this is just a disaster
 
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WVU took down a blue blood this week....And West Virginia has a better recruiting base and history in what ways? Jerry West was a long time ago....Duquesne has more history and look what it has done for them.
They've hired a hall of fame coach who is alumni

Since when did they become a blue blood? Pitt beat Duke last year.

Single data points don't make a story .

Let's try this again...if we replaced Dixon with a hall of fame coach , we'd all be happy . Those are long odds.

Bob Huggins will coach WVU but Sean Miller wont coach Pitt? Makes sense.

Someone needs to step the eff up and pay Miller big-time to make the move. He will for the right price. Maybe its $5 million/year. Everybody has a price.

My strategy would be:.

- offer Miller $5 million/year

- he gets Arizona to match

- after he fails to deliver Final Fours or NC's, Arizona wonders if he is worth $5 million to them

- when AZ stalls on the $5 million man after a few years, Pitt comes in and scoops him up, maybe for $4 million.
 
Bob Huggins will coach WVU but Sean Miller wont coach Pitt? Makes sense.

Someone needs to step the eff up and pay Miller big-time to make the move. He will for the right price. Maybe its $5 million/year. Everybody has a price.

My strategy would be:.

- offer Miller $5 million/year

- he gets Arizona to match

- after he fails to deliver Final Fours or NC's, Arizona wonders if he is worth $5 million to them

- when AZ stalls on the $5 million man after a few years, Pitt comes in and scoops him up, maybe for $4 million.

You are choosing to ignore a caustic Miller Family/Pitt dynamic that, barring an act of Congress, will never be resolved.
 
In an era were Pitt ran as clean a program as there was in the country Jamie Dixons eight year run in the BE is a remarkable achievement . There's also no denying his failures in advancing further in the NCAA tournament is a black mark in what was shaping up to be a HOF career. His teams always lacked that one player that could put the team on his back and carry them to a final four or national championship . Maybe it was because they didn't have a Golden Panthers booster club to smooth the way for that missing link .
I wasn't for Jamie leaving ,but any true follower of the program couldn't help but notice the steady decline in on court talent and results the last five years . It's a testament to his coaching abilities that he was able to get the results that he did out of the players on his roster. Each year it was becoming more evident the difficulty he was having in acquiring the necessary talent to compete in the ACC .This years roster is so flawed that I doubt that even JD could get much more out of them , they just don't have the pieces . The two freshman will prove not to be major contributors unless they show remarkable improvement in the next few years . You can put blame on KS for not getting the most out of this years roster ,but Pitt was one injury away from collapse all season . Now with two guys injured, Luther out and Youngs effectiveness diminish PITT has no answers .
It's also impossible to ignore the empty seats at the Pete . After all Pitt bb is a business , paying a coach top 15 money without top 15 results who has a looong term contract isn't an ideal business situation for you to be in . As a business decision to get out from under a crippling long term contract would be a Godsend in most cases. The problem is in how you proceed from there and Pitt did what it always does they took the route that saved them money which will eventually cost them many times the amount of money saved . The Pete will be empty next year donations will dry up and now to change coaches will become even more expensive . Can you see Pitt eating KS contract and spending the necessary money to get a coach who will invigorate the fan base , I can't . It could be long period of time before PITT bb will be enjoyable to watch .
I'd have given JD two maybe three more seasons to get things back on track and if I was the AD I'd have been supportive until I was 100% convinced his best days were behind him . If he still wanted to leave this year I'd been ok with it , but Pitt needed to hire that "splash guy " whoever he was . Barnes will be remembered as well as the chancellor as the guys who brought Pitt bb down to the BC line . It won't be for letting a coach go whose best years here were behind him it was for hiring the wrong guy to replace him .
Solid post.
 
We will never have two #1 seeds in three years again, in our lifetimes. I would make that bet all day. Its almost inconceivable. Can we reach a Final 4, sure. Did those number one seeds flame out? Unfortunately so. But the I would say the 4 year run (From the BET win, the elite 8 and a 1 seed, a #3 seed when it looked like we would miss the NCAAT in Dec, and then a #1 seed), that is Pitt football under Jackie Sherrill. Just a sustained level of success that we have maybe a 5% chance of ever recapturing. It doesn't mean you shut down the program, it just means acknowledging that the window has probably closed.

And I'm not even mad about it, I'm glad I saw it. Most non blue-bloods never get a window like that. I always be thankful for JD for that run, regardless of the tournament. He wasn't infallible, but the vitriol toward our best coach ever was something I never quite understood.

JD leaving, whether forced out or leaving on his own, is history at this point. I think we are all horrified at the hire of KS and how the year has gone, but this will be a rough couple of years, then he'll be gone, and then the process begins again.
Good post. On a related note, i really think much of the post-JD vitriol has had to do more with the dynamic on this board that has lionized Dixon for his past achievements, which were quite some time ago, while ignoring the state of the program the last few years as though everything was fine. It was not--far from it. That has caused other posters who liked and respected JD to call the JD slappies out for their selective memory and biased, one-sided slappy nonsense. I suspect very few posters actually wanted to run Dixon off--the fringe element, which is a really small minority on the Lair. I was a JD guy and was nowhere near the point of wanting to see him leave. He had earned the right to leave on his own terms, which I choose to believe he did. But at the same time only the most biased posters could ignore the state of the program from 2012 on and not be critical of Dixon for it. I mean, the Pitt basketball program JD left was not even close to the one he inherited and built upon. Not even close. In the heyday we had an identity as a tough, hard-assed, physical team that opponents didn't want to see on the schedule. That has been long gone for a long time, even the Lamar-led team in 2013-14 was a 10 loss team and was not the kind of tough, physical team we won a lot of games with in our best days in the BE. We have had no identity since joining the ACC. And look at that 2013-14 roster versus the ones since.

Where it goes from here is an unsettling thought.
 
Good post. On a related note, i really think much of the post-JD vitriol has had to do more with the dynamic on this board that has lionized Dixon for his past achievements, which were quite some time ago, while ignoring the state of the program the last few years as though everything was fine. It was not--far from it. That has caused other posters who liked and respected JD to call the JD slappies out for their selective memory and biased, one-sided slappy nonsense. I suspect very few posters actually wanted to run Dixon off--the fringe element, which is a really small minority on the Lair. I was a JD guy and was nowhere near the point of wanting to see him leave. He had earned the right to leave on his own terms, which I choose to believe he did. But at the same time only the most biased posters could ignore the state of the program from 2012 on and not be critical of Dixon for it. I mean, the Pitt basketball program JD left was not even close to the one he inherited and built upon. Not even close. In the heyday we had an identity as a tough, hard-assed, physical team that opponents didn't want to see on the schedule. That has been long gone for a long time, even the Lamar-led team in 2013-14 was a 10 loss team and was not the kind of tough, physical team we won a lot of games with in our best days in the BE. We have had no identity since joining the ACC. And look at that 2013-14 roster versus the ones since.

Where it goes from here is an unsettling thought.

Excellent post.
 
In an era were Pitt ran as clean a program as there was in the country Jamie Dixons eight year run in the BE is a remarkable achievement . There's also no denying his failures in advancing further in the NCAA tournament is a black mark in what was shaping up to be a HOF career. His teams always lacked that one player that could put the team on his back and carry them to a final four or national championship . Maybe it was because they didn't have a Golden Panthers booster club to smooth the way for that missing link .
I wasn't for Jamie leaving ,but any true follower of the program couldn't help but notice the steady decline in on court talent and results the last five years . It's a testament to his coaching abilities that he was able to get the results that he did out of the players on his roster. Each year it was becoming more evident the difficulty he was having in acquiring the necessary talent to compete in the ACC .This years roster is so flawed that I doubt that even JD could get much more out of them , they just don't have the pieces . The two freshman will prove not to be major contributors unless they show remarkable improvement in the next few years . You can put blame on KS for not getting the most out of this years roster ,but Pitt was one injury away from collapse all season . Now with two guys injured, Luther out and Youngs effectiveness diminish PITT has no answers .
It's also impossible to ignore the empty seats at the Pete . After all Pitt bb is a business , paying a coach top 15 money without top 15 results who has a looong term contract isn't an ideal business situation for you to be in . As a business decision to get out from under a crippling long term contract would be a Godsend in most cases. The problem is in how you proceed from there and Pitt did what it always does they took the route that saved them money which will eventually cost them many times the amount of money saved . The Pete will be empty next year donations will dry up and now to change coaches will become even more expensive . Can you see Pitt eating KS contract and spending the necessary money to get a coach who will invigorate the fan base , I can't . It could be long period of time before PITT bb will be enjoyable to watch .
I'd have given JD two maybe three more seasons to get things back on track and if I was the AD I'd have been supportive until I was 100% convinced his best days were behind him . If he still wanted to leave this year I'd been ok with it , but Pitt needed to hire that "splash guy " whoever he was . Barnes will be remembered as well as the chancellor as the guys who brought Pitt bb down to the BC line . It won't be for letting a coach go whose best years here were behind him it was for hiring the wrong guy to replace him .

When the Pitt basketball program is making a change at Head Coach, the logical places to look for a replacement are the Big East, the American and the Atlantic 10. After that you look at coaches on your level whose seats might be getting hot (that can be chancy). After that, you are reaching - lowel level head coaches or rising assistants on your level.

People need to get real. For Pitt, there is no splash hire.
 
Good post. On a related note, i really think much of the post-JD vitriol has had to do more with the dynamic on this board that has lionized Dixon for his past achievements, which were quite some time ago, while ignoring the state of the program the last few years as though everything was fine. It was not--far from it. That has caused other posters who liked and respected JD to call the JD slappies out for their selective memory and biased, one-sided slappy nonsense. I suspect very few posters actually wanted to run Dixon off--the fringe element, which is a really small minority on the Lair. I was a JD guy and was nowhere near the point of wanting to see him leave. He had earned the right to leave on his own terms, which I choose to believe he did. But at the same time only the most biased posters could ignore the state of the program from 2012 on and not be critical of Dixon for it. I mean, the Pitt basketball program JD left was not even close to the one he inherited and built upon. Not even close. In the heyday we had an identity as a tough, hard-assed, physical team that opponents didn't want to see on the schedule. That has been long gone for a long time, even the Lamar-led team in 2013-14 was a 10 loss team and was not the kind of tough, physical team we won a lot of games with in our best days in the BE. We have had no identity since joining the ACC. And look at that 2013-14 roster versus the ones since.

Where it goes from here is an unsettling thought.
We were what, two years removed from Dixon's really good teams? The 13 and 14 teams won 50 games those two years in the big east then the ACC. They were extremely underseeded in the tournament, I would say by at least 2 or 3 seed lines.

They weren't Dixon's best teams, but let's not act like they were trrrible the last 5 years.
 
We were what, two years removed from Dixon's really good teams? The 13 and 14 teams won 50 games those two years in the big east then the ACC. They were extremely underseeded in the tournament, I would say by at least 2 or 3 seed lines.

They weren't Dixon's best teams, but let's not act like they were trrrible the last 5 years.
The 13-14 team was 11-7 in the ACC. The non-conference schedule was tomato can row as we well know. They certainly weren't terrible, I'd love to have them back now-but they were hardly underseeded.
 
The 13-14 team was 11-7 in the ACC. The non-conference schedule was tomato can row as we well know. They certainly weren't terrible, I'd love to have them back now-but they were hardly underseeded.

The team was 5th in the ACC, and was rated 16 in kenpom at the end of the season. They were extremely underseeded.
 
Since you are having a hard time following along, I'll help you out. The reference to being spineless and lacking guts was in context to investing in the hardwork and financial commitment necessary to achieve greatness beyond what has been enjoyed at Pitt.

But no, you immediately think that the only way one can reach greater success at Pitt than what Jamie Dixon delivered is through running afoul of NCAA regulations and drawing sanctions. Which is 100% certifiable rubbish.

You and Kiwi and others of your ilk are turning into the same Paterno-esqe sycophants that we have skewered here for years. For whatever reason, your entire value system is built upon the infallibility of a man who is gone and is never coming back.

You need to get over it. Or, may I suggest just flipping on the VCR and watching the 2009 Elite 8 game against Nova over and over and over again. Just be sure to turn it off with 5 seconds left. Because that is the high-water mark of Pitt basketball...and without Jamie Dixon we will never get there again.
You mean high water mark for Pitt hoops historically
 
Bob Huggins will coach WVU but Sean Miller wont coach Pitt? Makes sense.

Someone needs to step the eff up and pay Miller big-time to make the move. He will for the right price. Maybe its $5 million/year. Everybody has a price.

My strategy would be:.

- offer Miller $5 million/year

- he gets Arizona to match

- after he fails to deliver Final Fours or NC's, Arizona wonders if he is worth $5 million to them

- when AZ stalls on the $5 million man after a few years, Pitt comes in and scoops him up, maybe for $4 million.
Sean Miller isn't a hof coach.
He'd have to leave a better job in Arizona.

Huggins left Kansas state.

Context matters
 
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