I've heard this a lot from Pickett as well as Pitt offensive people and I fundamentally disagree. I think the best offenses scheme ways to get people the ball who they believe are explosive. This notion that the defense dictates where the ball goes explains why the offense and qb looks so slow to process because we don't say "we want the ball in player X's hand. What plays formations or adjustments can we do to dictate who is getting the ball rather than just running plays and hoping someone gets open. Just my two cents.
Defense dictates where the ball goes?
- Thread starter Usuallyunusual-partdeux
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I wonder why 90% of the time the Steelers receivers are battling to make highly contested catches, then you see teams like KC or SF and their receivers are always running free in space with room to run, it has to be due a lot with schemes.
Proof Matt Canada Is Clueless please watch the route combinations. I have heard this a lot but this video illustrates it. Routes take too long and are not working to break anyone open. Please tell me how any QB could win with this crap. Kenny is working too hard to read defense while 300 pound men are charging full speed at him. He has been off but he is also pretty shell shocked from running for his life.
Canada is overmatched in the NFL and Tomlin doesn't help because he wants to take no risks on offense and win low scoring defensive battles.
Well, I think they do scheme that way, but I think Pickett's comments are more about actual real time progressions. I mean, when you play a team like the Patriots, Belichek will try to take away your best option, no matter what it is. So, in that instance you need to scheme around that, but in general, for example, if the Browns double Pickens on every play, that means someone else in open, and you will be trying to throw to that receiver or other receivers. If the defense plays three deep, you will run more.
most of the successful college offensive systems are “defense dictates the call” offenses.
Leach was more of a “I run what I run, and it’s such a finely tuned play that it doesn’t matter what the defense does” playcaller. But even his Air Raid had a hot route that was determined by the defense.
But the Veer and Shoot is entirely based around forcing the defense to make a decision, and then you run the opposite to attack the massive space that they have thinned out.
That’s one reason why modern offenses are so far ahead of defenses. Because where to go with the ball has become so simplified, and that’s because the answer is right or wrong based on what the defense did.
Leach was more of a “I run what I run, and it’s such a finely tuned play that it doesn’t matter what the defense does” playcaller. But even his Air Raid had a hot route that was determined by the defense.
But the Veer and Shoot is entirely based around forcing the defense to make a decision, and then you run the opposite to attack the massive space that they have thinned out.
That’s one reason why modern offenses are so far ahead of defenses. Because where to go with the ball has become so simplified, and that’s because the answer is right or wrong based on what the defense did.
Exactly right, and that is why you need a QB that can quickly and accurately assess that defense and their decisions, and make the right call to get numbers and more yards.
While I fully understand and marginally agree with your point I'm speaking more to a game plan and play design standpoint. A few examples: Antonio Brown. In his prime he was the top WR in the NFL. Every team they faced planned to take him away. Haley creatively found ways to free him up with motions, shifts, route combinations, and using him as a decoy when necessary to force teams to pick their poison. Same can be said for Kelce of KC and others. It's the coordinator's job to develop easy and creative ways to get the ball where HE wants it to go. Not let's wait and see who HAPPENS to get open when we run this play. It creates no anticipation and a QB in disarray because he can't hear a play and think...oh we want they ball to go here.
Bill Walsh - take what the defense gives you.
Defenses cannot defend everything.
Defenses cannot defend everything.
And yet with a terrible play caller, OLine that can't hold blocks, running game that stinks, but a roster that rivals the talent of the upper third teams in the NFL the coordinator shoulders the blame for not being creative enough to get the ball intentionally in the hands of the playmakers. Everyone says Kenny is thinking too much out there. Ever wonder why Whipple had him run to the sideline? He was telling Kenny what to anticipate, who to read etc....you know like a real NFL coordinator.
usually when a coordinator has the QB run to the sideline it's because of 2 things:
1. he doesn't have enough personnel to rotate guys in and out. It's usually due to a lack of talent coming off the bench to replace those who are running in a play - if you're a huddle team.
2. The terminology is so lengthy or complicated that only the QB can regurgitate it. The coordinator doesn't trust a receiver/rb to bring the play call in because of it.
if he was telling Kenny who to read/anticipate every time he came to the sideline, then Kenny was never meant to play in the NFL. I can tell you no coordinator in the NFL or college has to the QB who to read/anticipate on the majority of plays. If that were the case, guys like Josh Heupel and the rest of the no huddle and tempo teams could run an offense. Now when the offense comes off the field, sure the coordinator is in his ear. The coaching that goes on during the week is when you communicate who to read/anticipate. The cat/mouse game is practiced throughout the week.
Who is the source of this information that you so matter of factly present as gospel. How many college coordinators have you spoken to obtain such knowledge. I fear you are attempting to pass off opinion and inference as fact.
He was only ever talking to him for a couple of seconds, and yet you think that he was not only getting the play call, he was being told what to anticipate and who to read and more?
Is he one of those guys you hear at the end of a commercial talking really fast to read the fine print on the ad?
You do know that college and professional football are pretty different from pee wee football where the coach stands out on the field and lines everyone up and tells everyone what to do on every single play.
Exactly my point! Whipple communicated directly with him, because college football doesn't have headset communication with the QB. Thank you for making my point while trying to play me.You do know that college and professional football are pretty different from pee wee football where the coach stands out on the field and lines everyone up and tells everyone what to do on every single play.
Obviously - they communicated.. But, if you think he's going through his progressions and what to anticipate on a down to down basis - I don't know what to tell you.
How much communication do you think is done in 40 seconds?
Sure - you tell a kid from time to time what to look for but that's usually a young inexperienced player. Not a freaking 6th year senior. You talked about using headsets to communicate. Have you ever listened to the OC on those things?
Here is a typical NFL play call - "Scatter to west right tight, "f" left, 372 y stick, z spot - on 2, on 2" That is a fairly short call. I've heard ridiculously longer ones. The OC doesn't have time to say "Hey Maholmes, now on this play if we see 1 high, we're looking to read the strongside overhang, if he jumps the arrow, we want to slant behind it, "if he sits, we want the arrow."
pittdan77
Athletic Director
I think it's a bit more complicated that than because defenses eventually adapt. One of the reasons why passing has evolved and nobody bases their offense on the triple option. There really isn't a much simpler system but the speed of the game has made it obsolete.
Often when you see the QB running to the sidelines for the call, it's a sign of disorganization on the offensive side of the ball.
It doesn't look good - at all.
It doesn't look good - at all.
The problem with defenses adapting is, you almost can’t under the current rules.
Saban has kind of made that point. What qualifies as a good defense today is not a good defense 10 to 15 years ago. And you can’t stop that. You just have to accept it and have an offense that can outscore the other offense.
Even the veer and shoot isn't fool proof in simplification. It still requires a QB that can make split second decisions and deliver a ball with accuracy. And to run it effectively, the QB really needs to have really good velocity on his throws, not only to stretch the field on the deep balls, but to get it out quick on those horizontal throws as well.
And contrary to popular belief among some fans, you really do need a good OL to make that offense hum. I watched ODU & Tennessee last weekend, and they just don't have the guys up front or QB to make it work.
Straw man argument. Look it up it's pretty obvious you're arguing something I didn't say to make your argument more effective, but it misses my original point. Read what I said then what you're arguing against. Not the same thing. Don't feel bad it's a pretty common logical fallacy when you're losing an argument.Strawman argument
So what strawman am I making?
Never once did I say this and thus you've created a watered down version of my argument that's easier to argue against. I don't know why I have to explain all this to you. Your English teacher failed you.
Tennessee was without 2 starting OL and Heupel hasn’t been there long enough to build up depth that can sustain that.
There isn’t any offensive system that doesn’t require some level of base line talent. But whatever talent you do have, one offense allows you to maximize it on a weekly basis?
I don’t think Texas State puts 42 on Baylor with FCJ as OC running his system.
Not really a sharp fellow are you?? Did I ever say he went through all of Kenny's progressions and what to anticipate on a down by down basis. A weak minded person wouldn't notice the subtle tweak you made to my argument to make it easier to argue.Really?
Not the same argument friend. Your main point was he didn't have time. First this isn't necessary on every down, but Whipple or an NFL coordinator may take 10 seconds to read a play. How long does it take to say something like "don't forget to hold that safety with your eyes" Just a quick nugget or something like that, but you transformed my argument into something where each play is being taught through the headset. Not the same thing buddy. I'll block you now since you're not intelligent enough to keep up with my conversation 🧠.
You have no idea what you're talking about. But, if you think Whipple was having his qb come to the sidelines on every single down was due to so he could communicate once in awhile on what to read or how to execute, I just question your seriousness in the topic.
Dude - when you're a prostyle offense that uses multiple personnel groupings and you huddle, you don't have time to be discussing much of anything but getting your subs in and the play called to the qb and now the qb has to run back to the hudl and regurgitate everything he was just told.
