France. Holy hell and prayers....
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United coordinated world response, no more U.S. going it alone. Moderate Arab states need to ante up as well. Counter terrorism strategy using eavesdropping and planted agents to target and kill bad guys. Carpet bombing the Middle East is Looney talk. We'd be just as bad as they are. Do you notice how many of their fellow Arabs/Muslims they kill? Arab Nations have to share the wealth of the oil to fight the poverty and despair that breeds this shit. If massive force was the answer we'd have done that a long time ago.
Or just do what some here say and slaughter all brown people. Simple solutions for simple minds.
Or just do what some here say and slaughter all brown people. Simple solutions for simple minds.
Pishposh
And who gives 2 Shi#ts about a broken code between Japan with those lying commies in Moscow.
Hint
Harry gave them, and thankfully he did, a demand for UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER
And they REFUSED by tap dancing over ,around and on top of his demand.
Got it?
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Of course "The buck stops here" did the right thing for America and freedom. I would have done the same. But when solely considering morality, The precept "The end never justifies the means" is absolute. Within the realm of morality, you cannot intentionally kill one innocent person to save millions. But morality is an abstract and often conflicts with the real world. The necessity of survival should and always will Trump? abstract concepts. No individual is blameless for immoral acts.however necessary, justified and expedient. No matter how repugnant, survival often requires immoral behavior. Live with it. We are fast approaching this decision with regard to terrorism.
Freeport, we need to stop with the political correctness for one. Am I saying, go to war against Islam, no. Of course not. BUT......I liken it to this analogy. Say the Presbyterians have decided to be radicalized, and they start committing acts of aggression and terror, do you declare war on Christianity? No. You deal with the Presby's.
You just start going after radicalized jihadists, aggressively. You shut down internet sites. You go after money. You go after them indiscrimanently. If you are going to bomb and attack and surveilliance shows women and children are present, well so be it. You don't miss the opportunity. In WWII when we firebombed Berlin and Dresden, then Tokyo, their were civilians and innocents killed. It just is a shame, but it happens. They use people as shields.
I know the thought is that you go after one group and the void will be filled by another. While Germany and Japan was 70 years ago, and really no one in Europe or the Pacific have acted out with imperialistic aggression.
The one positive thing, is with the attacks on France and the Russian plane, it is no longer just an American problem. And one other thing I know, after 9/11 when we sort of had carte blanche to deal with radical Islam and our then administration decided to make it a personal contest against Saddam Hussein, by not focusing on our original mission and destroying these guys and their money sources, we caused Europe to be more in harm's way for retaliation. That is one reason they are so disappointed in the US.
We shall see. But let's see if the West can provide a united front against this threat for once. But make no mistake about it, some innocent Muslims will be penalized and likely harmed over it. That will be a shame, but we cannot be paralyzed by the fear of doing this.
History shows us over and over. Peace doesn't come from negotiations it only comes from complete and total victory. No almost you must bring your enemy to their knees and prove to them victory is no option.
Problem is when dealing with religious zealots there is no defeat other than death. We have three choices and their not good.
First continue same course and accept continuous attacks.
Second succumb and let them have shariah law.
Third kill them.
Most people in this thread cant wrap their heads around the fact these people don't want to live with us. Don't want to live separate of us. They want to live instead of us.
You want to blame US action or the fact they are poor and want jobs. This was inevitable based on their religion of inequality. Their views of women as property their intolerance of any religion other than orthodox Muslim as evil and its need for eradication. Their belief in extinction of Jews.
It is really amazing that if you look into their beliefs it is exactly what liberals accuse conservatives of. If people would actually take the time to understand what it is about instead of just saying if conservatives are for it it must be wrong so I am against it and educate themselves we could unite before something even more horrible happens.
Problem is when dealing with religious zealots there is no defeat other than death. We have three choices and their not good.
First continue same course and accept continuous attacks.
Second succumb and let them have shariah law.
Third kill them.
Most people in this thread cant wrap their heads around the fact these people don't want to live with us. Don't want to live separate of us. They want to live instead of us.
You want to blame US action or the fact they are poor and want jobs. This was inevitable based on their religion of inequality. Their views of women as property their intolerance of any religion other than orthodox Muslim as evil and its need for eradication. Their belief in extinction of Jews.
It is really amazing that if you look into their beliefs it is exactly what liberals accuse conservatives of. If people would actually take the time to understand what it is about instead of just saying if conservatives are for it it must be wrong so I am against it and educate themselves we could unite before something even more horrible happens.
Politicians always ask this question when defending the war in Iraq. Is the world better off without Saddam? Everybody is supposed to say yes. But my question is ... is the USA better off without Saddam? My answer is no.
People want a simple answer. It's religious. It's political. Trump would keep us safe.
Ask yourself why Israel and Palestine fight. Is it religion? Political? Simple geography?
In all seriousness there is no answer. We live in a global community with instant access to information. There is always going to be terrorist organizations. The US has to figure out how to keep them away from here. I can tell you a big wall won't stop these guys
Ask yourself why Israel and Palestine fight. Is it religion? Political? Simple geography?
In all seriousness there is no answer. We live in a global community with instant access to information. There is always going to be terrorist organizations. The US has to figure out how to keep them away from here. I can tell you a big wall won't stop these guys
Well that's a far shot from you said in your original post. I don't disagree with a lot of what you wrote above, except I don't think you're grasping the root of this problem. Who do we go to war with and where? You see all these people refugeeing into Europe? They want to get away from this shit as well. They are Muslims, but want no part of Assad, or Isil or AlQueada! They just want pretty much what we want, live their life in peace.
We killed plenty of innocent people when we bombed Iraq, just like we did in other times. The difference in WW2, we were fighting nations with borders, industries, uniforms, armies, and so on. It was a different kind of war.
This is a conflict with a radical faction that claims to be Muslim. They have distorted their religion to appeal to disenfranchised youth whose life sucks so they can be convinced to take a shot at the hereafter for something better.
For the most part, the exist in the new cyber world, with no borders. You have to ferret them out, identify them, locate them and kill them.
And it just isn't us, as Europe is now finding out. Everyone has to pony up, including the moderate Arab states.
No easy answers here, just a lot of resolve, hard work and efficient use of highly specialized counter terrorism forces. Then work on changing the things that breed these assholes. Only way to win.
Of course you would have done the same......the pipe smokers can debate the rest of it.
Enough blood had been spilled.
We had the means to end it violently and suddenly
Truman in no uncertain terms and publicly gave that information to their government and the Emperor, however the response was a subtle non action as if the conditions were not even offered..
That was the end of it.
Well remember the original post was when this all was going down and I was pissed (as we all should be). I am just saying, we have a lot of intelligence. Already one of the terrorists who blew himself up, the DNA or fingerprints have shown he was on watch lists. We know who a lot of these people are. Go after them. Don't wait. Don't need excuses. Go after them and kill them.
Even in this country, I was just up in Detroit. Lots of Arabs and Muslims, great food. A lot of good people. A lot of good Americans, who are Arab descent or from the Mid East now here. But those who still want to be beholden to Sharia law, who have ties to bad guys, well now those people we must monitor and if it comes to civil rights violations, so be it. What we cannot do is cry for their rights and bleed for them.
Obviously not 100% of the time, but I would think 90-95% of the time, we know who the bad people are. The problem is, we have to act within our own legal systems and they have to strike first before we can act. I am saying, eff that. Suspend that and act. Even if it is special ops within our own borders and take out some of these people, so be it.
But we need to stop thinking of these terrorists who are here legally or illegally as "citizens".
Could not agree more regarding illegals at least. If you're here illegally you should not receive a single right that citizens do. No fair trials, if something terrible happens to you... oh well.
I kind of think we are doing exactly what you're saying. This attack was in France, not the U.S. It has been a long time since we have had an attack by one of these groups succeed in this country. Is it luck? I doubt it.....
I think the French were sitting this one out, for the most part. They weren't too helpful when we were slugging it out in the Middle East, and at times were kind of obstructionist to our efforts. I imagine that has changed.
Step by step the world has to show these assclowns we won't sit by and let them have their way. Just like Jihadi John, in time they'll all get it, in very unglamorous fashion.
You beat guerilla war with guerilla war. Conventional tactics don't work when fighting groups without borders, uniforms, national identity, and the like.
Dont' forget Sherman's march through the south, burning everything in sight. Civilians were fair game and suffered greatly. His famous quote "war is hell" still endures today.
My goodness, for a bunch of people who supposedly graduated from the same university as I did, there sure are some morons on this board. Try reading something once in your life. The refugees are RUNNING FROM ISIS, not a part of it. ISIS wants us to retaliate and blame Islam. That way they can sell their message that it's Islam vs. the west. Blaming refugees and Islam for terrorist attacks is playing right into their hands. Crack a book, or a newspaper once in your life before opening your yaps.
Never got bullied, so I can't relate. Did you kill all the women and children related to your bully without regard?
The war on ISIS or terror is like the war on drugs. You arrest some young hoppers or some mid-level lietenants, so what. The game is so profitable that there will always be peope to take their place.
Its a numbers game. There are millions of young Muslims, not necessarily even affiliated with a terror group that despise the West. There's just too many. Even if you nuked the entire Middle East and killed every single person there, there's enough living in Europe and North America to do damage. Any war we fight against ISIS will be like the war in Afghanistan or Iraq. We'll kill tens of thousands, lots of civilians, lose a lot of US troops and at the end of it, we'll declare victory and ISIS will still be there just like the Taliban, just like the drug gangs. If we eliminate ISIS, guess what, another Muslim opportunist steps up and wins the hearts and minds of young Muslims. Its a game we cant win. We can "degrade" terrorism but you can never totally win that war.
Clearly something needs done but anyone expecting the West to rid itself if terror attacks is clueless. This is a way of life just like school shootings. Elementary kids are having shooter drills now. We live in a world of random violence.
Its a numbers game. There are millions of young Muslims, not necessarily even affiliated with a terror group that despise the West. There's just too many. Even if you nuked the entire Middle East and killed every single person there, there's enough living in Europe and North America to do damage. Any war we fight against ISIS will be like the war in Afghanistan or Iraq. We'll kill tens of thousands, lots of civilians, lose a lot of US troops and at the end of it, we'll declare victory and ISIS will still be there just like the Taliban, just like the drug gangs. If we eliminate ISIS, guess what, another Muslim opportunist steps up and wins the hearts and minds of young Muslims. Its a game we cant win. We can "degrade" terrorism but you can never totally win that war.
Clearly something needs done but anyone expecting the West to rid itself if terror attacks is clueless. This is a way of life just like school shootings. Elementary kids are having shooter drills now. We live in a world of random violence.
I really don't understand how this escapes people
EVERYONE gets that these are truly despicable POS.
But, they can't be "defeated" by force because they aren't an IT - a country, with a capital and an official leader/government.
It's wack a mole.
People are screaming to BOMB THEM INTO THE NEVER WORLD.
We blow up toyotas full of ISIS Arsehats every day. We fricken drone the bloody heck out of them, doctors without borders by accident.
We get the infamous Jihidi John POS and the next day they blow up Paris.
We need to get energy independent, get out of bed with the Saudis and quit acting the she dogs of the Israelis ... Keep up the intelligence and use special forces and our military to take out known threats, but otherwise get out of the ME entirely, let everyone know if anyone actually attacks Israel and they ask we will get their back, but outside of that quit having our dumb arse pols kiss their butts left and right.
I really don't understand how this escapes people
EVERYONE gets that these are truly despicable POS.
But, they can't be "defeated" by force because they aren't an IT - a country, with a capital and an official leader/government.
It's wack a mole.
People are screaming to BOMB THEM INTO THE NEVER WORLD.
We blow up toyotas full of ISIS Arsehats every day. We fricken drone the bloody heck out of them, doctors without borders by accident.
We get the infamous Jihidi John POS and the next day they blow up Paris.
We need to get energy independent, get out of bed with the Saudis and quit acting the she dogs of the Israelis ... Keep up the intelligence and use special forces and our military to take out known threats, but otherwise get out of the ME entirely, let everyone know if anyone actually attacks Israel and they ask we will get their back, but outside of that quit having our dumb arse pols kiss their butts left and right.
hear, hear.
Maybe I've been watching too many world war2 movies but this is scary. Seems like this is one event that is helping to re align the original ally powers. Still not a fan of ground forces for us troops. Would be fearful of what would happen to troops that got captured
I really don't understand how this escapes people
EVERYONE gets that these are truly despicable POS.
But, they can't be "defeated" by force because they aren't an IT - a country, with a capital and an official leader/government.
It's wack a mole.
People are screaming to BOMB THEM INTO THE NEVER WORLD.
We blow up toyotas full of ISIS Arsehats every day. We fricken drone the bloody heck out of them, doctors without borders by accident.
We get the infamous Jihidi John POS and the next day they blow up Paris.
We need to get energy independent, get out of bed with the Saudis and quit acting the she dogs of the Israelis ... Keep up the intelligence and use special forces and our military to take out known threats, but otherwise get out of the ME entirely, let everyone know if anyone actually attacks Israel and they ask we will get their back, but outside of that quit having our dumb arse pols kiss their butts left and right.
Exactly. Agree 100%
Just as a weird aside and honestly I seriously digress, but Oppenheimer (one of the creators of the atomic bomb) moved to St. John's in the Virgin Islands and the beach where built a home for he, his wife and daughter and lived in his later life is named after him. He chose to leave much of civilization behind. It is a beautiful beach and myself and Mr. Pitt-girl have spent many lovely afternoons there.
http://stjohn-beachguide.com/oppenheimer-beach-st-john/
Perhaps in your wacked out version of morality, but not in most people's version. I think most people would happily agree with the notion that if the ends is great enough then you should be willing to use greater means to achieve it. To use the example that's been floating around lately, if you had the chance to kill baby Hitler but you know it would also mean killing baby Hitler's innocent baby cousin it is absolutely moral to kill the both of them. In fact I'd go so far as to say that if you knew what the consequences were going to be (and of course there is no way to know that at the time) that it would be immoral NOT to kill baby Hitler and his baby cousin to save millions of lives.
There was a wise philosopher who once posited "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one." I can't remember who that smart dude was, but he got it right.
Not for nothing, but you have nust staked the position of the terrorists ...
We are better, how?
So you would not have carpet bombed Germany and let more Allied soldiers and Jews die? Why do you hate Jews?
I am with you but we have to go ALL IN as Americans. No pussyfooting around. First off a mandatory across the board increase in taxes to fund the war. Maybe 40% or 50% of income. We need to be willing to pay. Also, lets think about what we can give up and start rationing things now that will effect the war effort if we piggishly use those materials. Gas rationing. Food rationing. Whatever it takes. Maybe even shutdown of the internet so that secrets aren't discovered accidentally by the terrorists.
Have to bring back the draft because lots of Americans are going to die doing this and so we need people to man the front lines. Close down college sports and professional sports and immediately put those guys in the military because they certainly are the most fit for duty. Make sure we allow drafting of folks probably up to 60 or more. Those of us who are older can be assigned to more administrative duties so that the young folks can go out there and fight the good fight.
ARE YOU ALL IN ON THIS??? SHOW YOUR PATRIOTISM AND SAY YES!!!!
Painfully small minded, but not surprising response.
And, past this point I will choose not to get into your gutter.
Paris was a horrible tragedy, an act of gutless POS scumbags.
120 or so people died.
The nazis slaughtered 6 million jews, and millions of other innocents ...
I'm small minded, but you choose to ignore all the other people killed by these groups the last decade. Not to mention those who died fleeing the area. Why do you hate Christians in that region too. They have been massacred and enslaved. We all know your disdain of Christianity, perhaps the Muslims are doing just what you want?
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IMO, you put too much emphasis on the economic causes. Fundamentalist Islam has held the same view and approach toward all infidels as ISIS since the time of Mohammed--"Convert or die, spread Islam by military conquest." Hence, the Crusades and the Islamic invasions of Europe between roughly 700 A.D. and the 1500's (Battle of Lepanto). The primary motivating factor is religious. Economics is secondary but exacerbates the first.
Electronic intelligence is falling behind due to encryption being pushed in the current wave of advanced smart cell phones. That is hampering intelligence gathering about these savages. Just taking out their leadership isn't going to cut it. But keeping a large mainly U.S. occupying army on the ground in the mid-east won't either. But, far more than we are currently doing along with real leadership from moderate Arab countries and European countries is necessary. Allowing a fundamentalist caliphate nation to exist cannot be permitted.
Doubt they have any interest in the Chinese. A large part of the reason we are held in such high esteem by these crackpots is our unwavering support of Israel.
That and some leftover animosity over the Crusades, which I don't believe the Chinese participated in seems to fuel some of this poison against the West. Of course it is BS and twisted, but it is there.
Wow, don't know where you're going with this "logic", but a few facts may help....
"Carpet Bombing" of Germany and the fire bombing of Dresden in particular were mostly in retaliation for the German Blitz on London, and of course the V1 and V2 rocket attacks that indiscriminately targeted civilians. Prior to this, the bombing was 'strategic bombing' aimed primarily at industrial targets. Of course there was collateral damage/casualties, there always is in war. Attempts were made to minimize it.
With regard to "hating" Jews and bombing, it is a fact that the Allies, and Churchill in particular, knew about the death camps and what was happening there fairly early in the war. They chose to NOT bomb the camps, or the rail lines that serviced them for various reasons, including not tipping the Germans that we had the enigma code broken.
With regard to hating Christians, I don't recall anyone saying we should let these killers alone. The point is, "Carpet Bombing" regions and indiscriminately killing all Muslims, including women and children will do nothing to protect Christians! I can't think of anything more anti-Christian than something like this! Would you kill the Kurds? They are Muslims, and the one of the only ones willing to pony up and take the lead in actually killing these bad guys. Are they evil? We want the Turks to help, should we bomb them? Why don't we strafe the long lines of immigrant Muslims fleeing the radicals to protect their families? Hey, can't be too safe....there may be an Isis fighter mixed into the tens of thousands in line!
I would turn this around on you and ask Why do you hate all Muslims? It is the second largest religion in the world, or close to it, and not all of them, not even a majority, in fact only a very small minority are engaged in terrorism. What about American Muslims, hate them as well? Muhammad Ali? Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Talib Zanna? Should we off them just in case?
Do you want a new Inquisition? Sign up to Christianity or die?
We need to align with these people, and all people of good will and work in tandem to eradicate these outlaws and criminals, not take actions to create more of them! We need to be smarter than them, not crueler! Justice is moral, indiscriminate hatred, discrimination and murder isn't.
This is a really complex issue, but you touch on one fundamental point that people lose sight of.
We are doing MORE than enough, frankly.
We are on the other side of the planet, and spend trillions of dollars and lose the lives our our brave soldiers trying to deal with this mess, while the countries in the region at BEST sit around paralyzed, and most often in some way enable the extremist elements.
There simply is not enough we CAN do.
These people are different from us, and there is no amount of money, no amount of lives we can give, no amount of "will" or other trite phrases people throw out, that can make the entire middle east grow the F up.
Absolutely, these are historically tribal people. They grew up forever with allegiance to their tribe and religious sect. The concept of Nation and Country is foreign to these people. There were "kingdoms", but these were just extensions of the tribes. The idea that "Jeffersonian Democracy" was going to work/flourish in this region was a pipe dream. Most of these "countries" were arbitrarily created by the British after WW1 and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. It threw people together who had no desire to be together, oil and water!
Look at the region, it is pretty much a barren rocky sand box! If it weren't for the oil, it would be the poorest place on the planet. Even with the oil, the wealth is concentrated in a few "royal' families or despots. There is no economy short of raising poppies and/or goats!
Unfortunately, there are two things that keep us involved there, Oil and Israel. It was determined long ago that both are in our National Interest.
When you have nothing, and no hope, and when you are angry, or can be made to be angry, when you can be convinced that there is something much better waiting for you than what you have here, and you have a devout belief that that is true, you can be radicalized. Especially if you are young and impressionable. Kind of like the gang phenomenon here.
This is a tough fight, and we have to be smart in conjunction with the rest of the civilized world to fight it. I doubt we will ever stop it completely, but we need to react so they know there are consequences, and we have to be proactive, as we have been to thwart these things before they happen.
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