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Goalposts

ThatPittGuy

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Dec 18, 2007
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Wouldn't it be great if we were all kicking at the same goalposts?

What does a "successful" Pitt program look like 1, 5, and 10 years from now?

Should the program even have goalposts?

Does the Chancellor (and future AD) have goalposts? Do the match those of the fan base?

It would be interesting to know the consensus thought of the posters here on these questions. It might also help me do less bickering with people I would otherwise probably really enjoy a having few beers with on game night.
 
Originally posted by ThatPittGuy:
Wouldn't it be great if we were all kicking at the same goalposts?

What does a "successful" Pitt program look like 1, 5, and 10 years from now?

Should the program even have goalposts?

Does the Chancellor (and future AD) have goalposts? Do the match those of the fan base?

It would be interesting to know the consensus thought of the posters here on these questions. It might also help me do less bickering with people I would otherwise probably really enjoy a having few beers with on game night.
Winning national championships...the only real goal.

Every team except for 1 fails to achieve that.
 
I posted this in another thread:

In a 10 year period (is how I think we should look at this), we should:

- go to the NCAA Tournament 8 out of 10 years, 7 is acceptable, 6 is not

- make 3 Sweet 16's

- make 1 Elite 8

- win 2 ACC Regular Season or Tournament Championships

I'd say about every 15 years, we should make a Final Four.


Here's the thing, we WERE where I think we should have been. The new arena, ESPN every night, #1 rankings, #1 seeds, the whole 9 yards, but then something went terribly wrong. My fear is that we have regressed to the Ralph Willard era or even worse become Boston College or Georgia Tech (apathetic fanbase, empty arenas in huge pro markets).

I'd be interested in hearing what our "positive" fans think our goals should be. I'd guess they are

1. Graduate our players
2. Develop them into better people
3. Don't break any NCAA rules.

Jamie has enough time to get us out of this, but I can't honestly say that I think he will at this point. While this may just be a road block that most HOF coaches have, it also could be a cliff. The next couple years will tell.
 
Pretty colors. I am entertained by pretty colors and contrasts. So that is all I need. Give me some pretty colors. I am cool with that.
 
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:


Originally posted by ThatPittGuy:
Wouldn't it be great if we were all kicking at the same goalposts?

What does a "successful" Pitt program look like 1, 5, and 10 years from now?

Should the program even have goalposts?

Does the Chancellor (and future AD) have goalposts? Do the match those of the fan base?

It would be interesting to know the consensus thought of the posters here on these questions. It might also help me do less bickering with people I would otherwise probably really enjoy a having few beers with on game night.
Winning national championships...the only real goal.

Every team except for 1 fails to achieve that.
And there it is. Spoken like a true "positive" Pitt fan. There's only 1 winner and 350 losers and its so impossible to be that 1 winner that we should just all lower our expectations and realize we're just like everybody else.

I'm a negative fan but yet I readily admit that I don't care about winning a National Championship. Its freaking impossible. There are 20 programs who that should be a goal. Pitt is not on that level and that's fine. Is RMU's goal to win a NC? What about Sacred Heart and Savannah State? That's the only true goal, right?

The "positive" fan tries greatly minimize other goals (NCAA appearances, Sweet 16's, Final 4's) because they are easier to attain and don't want to admit that our failures to attain those goals are indeed failures. They say, "All that matters is winning a National Championship" as if this is some 30 team league like the ones the Steelers and Penguins play in.
 
SMF, I more or less agree with your metrics of success. They might be slightly lofty given Pitt's entire history, but I can't argue too much.

I also think you nailed it when you said, "we WERE where I think we should have been."

It was obvious that something good was being built for the better part of the past decade, which makes the recent tumble that much more confounding and agonizing.
 
So..stating my goal and expectation is to win the national championship is not considered optimistic??

Interesting.

I'll give you a hint- if a coach states anything else, they should be fired that afternoon.
 
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:

Winning national championships...the only real goal.


Every team except for 1 fails to achieve that.
Is this the type of incisive analysis you use to solve problems and put out fires at work?
 
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:
So..stating my goal and expectation is to win the national championship is not considered optimistic??

Interesting.

I'll give you a hint- if a coach states anything else, they should be fired that afternoon.
Nope, because you are using that stated goal as a defense mechanism for when we don't reach any other more attainable goal. "Oh, we didnt make the NCAA Tournament, oh well, doesn't matter, nothing matters but winning the whole thing and 350 teams wont do that. We're just like them."
 
Originally posted by ThatPittGuy:

Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:

Winning national championships...the only real goal.


Every team except for 1 fails to achieve that.
Is this the type of incisive analysis you use to solve problems and put out fires at work?
Yes. Real goals and working to that.

I don't say, "Well we got medication delivered to 20% of our patients and pharmacies, which was great and better than our 18% yesterday".

I want 100% accuracy, 100% on-time, 100% customer satisfaction ratings...and then I want to do it better, faster, and with less people.

When you take a flight, are you satisfied with landing safely 90% of the time? Getting food-poisoning at restaurant only 40% of the time?

Yeah..me neither.
 
Originally posted by Sean Miller Fan:
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:
So..stating my goal and expectation is to win the national championship is not considered optimistic??

Interesting.

I'll give you a hint- if a coach states anything else, they should be fired that afternoon.
Nope, because you are using that stated goal as a defense mechanism for when we don't reach any other more attainable goal. "Oh, we didnt make the NCAA Tournament, oh well, doesn't matter, nothing matters but winning the whole thing and 350 teams wont do that. We're just like them."
He either misunderstood the question or just wanted to reply with snark.

Or he's conducting a social experiment on us.
 
Originally posted by Sean Miller Fan:
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:
So..stating my goal and expectation is to win the national championship is not considered optimistic??

Interesting.

I'll give you a hint- if a coach states anything else, they should be fired that afternoon.
Nope, because you are using that stated goal as a defense mechanism for when we don't reach any other more attainable goal. "Oh, we didnt make the NCAA Tournament, oh well, doesn't matter, nothing matters but winning the whole thing and 350 teams wont do that. We're just like them."
Nothing defensive about it. You play to win games and championships.

Better question, SMF- when YOUR expectations aren't met.. THEN WHAT?
Stop buying season tickets? oops..you already did that.

STop watching? Go for it.


This post was edited on 4/17 4:18 PM by SoufOaklin4Life
 
Originally posted by ThatPittGuy:
Originally posted by Sean Miller Fan:
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:
So..stating my goal and expectation is to win the national championship is not considered optimistic??

Interesting.

I'll give you a hint- if a coach states anything else, they should be fired that afternoon.
Nope, because you are using that stated goal as a defense mechanism for when we don't reach any other more attainable goal. "Oh, we didnt make the NCAA Tournament, oh well, doesn't matter, nothing matters but winning the whole thing and 350 teams wont do that. We're just like them."
He either misunderstood the question or just wanted to reply with snark.

Or he's conducting a social experiment on us.
I have higher aspirations than you both, clearly.

Only difference is, when my expectations aren't met..I don't feel entitled to complain to anonymous strangers about that crushing disappointment.
 
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:

Originally posted by ThatPittGuy:
Originally posted by Sean Miller Fan:
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:
So..stating my goal and expectation is to win the national championship is not considered optimistic??

Interesting.

I'll give you a hint- if a coach states anything else, they should be fired that afternoon.
Nope, because you are using that stated goal as a defense mechanism for when we don't reach any other more attainable goal. "Oh, we didnt make the NCAA Tournament, oh well, doesn't matter, nothing matters but winning the whole thing and 350 teams wont do that. We're just like them."
He either misunderstood the question or just wanted to reply with snark.

Or he's conducting a social experiment on us.
I have higher aspirations than you both, clearly.

Only difference is, when my expectations aren't met..I don't feel entitled to complain to anonymous strangers about that crushing disappointment.
I take it back. He understood the question. He fundamentally misunderstands what message boards are.
 
Oh, I understand perfectly the purpose.

Which is why I'm even engaging in this round of self-pity, to get precisely the responses I expected.

I point out something fundamentally true- and it makes those mired in self-pity evasive.
 
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:
Oh, I understand perfectly the purpose.

Which is why I'm even engaging in this round of self-pity, to get precisely the responses I expected.

I point out something fundamentally true- and it makes those mired in self-pity evasive.
You vapidly stated the obvious. You made no attempt at all to engage the question.

You're the only one who thinks you're clever. You see that, right?
 
Originally posted by ThatPittGuy:
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:
Oh, I understand perfectly the purpose.

Which is why I'm even engaging in this round of self-pity, to get precisely the responses I expected.

I point out something fundamentally true- and it makes those mired in self-pity evasive.
You vapidly stated the obvious. You made no attempt at all to engage the question.

You're the only one who thinks you're clever. You see that, right?
I'm the only one I"m attempting to amuse. You can be confident in this one thing- I'm not the least bit interested in what others think of me on these forums.


Set Your Goals Lyrics
CIV
take what time that you need to make
that choice might be all you ever get
we all gotta make our decisions or take
a back seat everytime

and when you cant figure out what you wanted
and youre sick of playing of everything is fine
you dont know what it is but you want it
youre on your wat there once you set your goals
set your goals

dont get stuck on the money making
you miss to much and it doesnt last
you get more from what youve given
make more life than a living

when you cant figure out what you wanted
and you cant pass off alll the blame again cause
its all written in your hands
you cant live your life just covering up
cause you might not get a second chance

you gotta take aim, wont you take it
youre the only one to blame, so dont fake it
spend your time like youre drawing a line
between yourself and what you want
you gotta set your goals
 
Originally posted by ThatPittGuy:

Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:
Oh, I understand perfectly the purpose.

Which is why I'm even engaging in this round of self-pity, to get precisely the responses I expected.

I point out something fundamentally true- and it makes those mired in self-pity evasive.
You vapidly stated the obvious. You made no attempt at all to engage the question.

You're the only one who thinks you're clever. You see that, right?
Souf's 1 and only goal for Pitt basketball:

LETS GO WIN THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!

Yea, I'd love to do that but its not going to happen. I'm OK with more attainable goals like winning the ACC, making some Sweet 16's, the occasional Elite 8, and a Final Four once or twice a generation. But, hey, I'm not a positive poster who thinks we should aim for the National Championship because none of that other stuff matters.
 
Originally posted by Sean Miller Fan:
Originally posted by ThatPittGuy:

Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:
Oh, I understand perfectly the purpose.

Which is why I'm even engaging in this round of self-pity, to get precisely the responses I expected.

I point out something fundamentally true- and it makes those mired in self-pity evasive.
You vapidly stated the obvious. You made no attempt at all to engage the question.

You're the only one who thinks you're clever. You see that, right?
Souf's 1 and only goal for Pitt basketball:

LETS GO WIN THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!

Yea, I'd love to do that but its not going to happen. I'm OK with more attainable goals like winning the ACC, making some Sweet 16's, the occasional Elite 8, and a Final Four once or twice a generation. But, hey, I'm not a positive poster who thinks we should aim for the National Championship because none of that other stuff matters.
Why are your aspirations so low? Why are you so negative?

What happens when Pitt fails to achieve your lower goals?


If my goal is for Pitt to simply field a basketball team, regardless of wins or losses, is that MORE realistic than your stated goals?


This post was edited on 4/17 4:43 PM by SoufOaklin4Life
 
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:

Originally posted by ThatPittGuy:

Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:

Winning national championships...the only real goal.


Every team except for 1 fails to achieve that.
Is this the type of incisive analysis you use to solve problems and put out fires at work?
Yes. Real goals and working to that.

I don't say, "Well we got medication delivered to 20% of our patients and pharmacies, which was great and better than our 18% yesterday".

I want 100% accuracy, 100% on-time, 100% customer satisfaction ratings...and then I want to do it better, faster, and with less people.

When you take a flight, are you satisfied with landing safely 90% of the time? Getting food-poisoning at restaurant only 40% of the time?

Yeah..me neither.
How inaccurate, how late, how unsatisfied before somebody gets canned?

Is there a percentage threshold?
 
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:

Yes. Real goals and working to that.

I don't say, "Well we got medication delivered to 20% of our patients and pharmacies, which was great and better than our 18% yesterday".

I want 100% accuracy, 100% on-time, 100% customer satisfaction ratings...and then I want to do it better, faster, and with less people.

When you take a flight, are you satisfied with landing safely 90% of the time? Getting food-poisoning at restaurant only 40% of the time?

Yeah..me neither.
Don't ever become a CEO. Your shareholders and board will be quite disappointed when you fail to deliver on your unreasonable goals. Goals have to be realistic or else they stop becoming goals. The key to goal-setting (and you really should know this since you say you manage people) is to have a goal that is reachable at that employee or department's maximum capacity. If you set goals that are unattainable, there is no incentive or motivation to reach it because everybody realizes its not going to happen. If you set them too low, employees will be satisfied accomplishing less.

So, while you may want 100% accuracy, 100% on time, and 100% customer satisfaction, there's a big, big, big difference in what you WANT and the GOAL you should set for your staff. More realistic may be 92% accuracy, 92% on time, and 95% customer satisfaction.

I want Pitt to win every single game for the next 50 years. That's what I want. My goal for them is what I already stated.
 
There are also stepping stones. Stepping stones are levels. Levels then lead to your goals, realistic goals. I mean, there is fantasy and there is realistic goals.

The Pirates 3 years ago had a goal of getting .500 and possibly getting into the post season. The Pirates have achieved those levels. A World Series is now a logical and realistic goal.

Of course Souf you know this. You just some how think you are so friggin brilliant that your arguments make sense and they don't.

And again on this narrative on fans expressing disappointment as a clever diversion of the program's decline. Again, this just shoots the messenger. Label the dissenter as irrational, "mopey" and "angry". But still doesn't really change the plight.

And please, again with over 38,500 posts, there is not ONE single person, even if that person HATES me because I am more brutally honest and can't stand my opinions (yinz know who you are) they know you care.
 
Well, it's much like those on these boards (and it seems only on Pitt boards) who spew rubbish like "I would be disgusted if Pitt put emphasis on winning in sports." Yet hang out on these Pitt sports message boards nearly 24x7 it seems. Trolls.

Winning sports can only help a school, and raise an already good one to nearly legendary status. Duke, Ohio State, Michigan, and many more are all much better schools than Pitt, yet crave and invest in having great sports. Why bother? Because of the untold revenue yes, but at least as much for the PR it brings.

Duke is not "DUKE" for its fine academics. Duke is "DUKE" for what happened 12 days ago. Which would happen if Pitt won too, especially in a (winning) sports-mad region.

It's one thing if you always sucked, but worse when you had success on a silver (more like platinum) platter and pissed it away. Pitt is now in danger of the ignominy of doing it in the two major sports. It was always a shame (and given the giant potential, tragedy isnt too strong a term) that Pitt squandered the elite football status it once had, and is well on the way to blowing it in basketball too.

But sucking does allow the Web trolls to beat their chest and celebrate "academic integrity". Again, nobody has less "integrity" than Ohio State sports (well, I guess a couple regional schools do sink lower, but barely). So how is it that OSU is more respected a school than Pitt?
 
Smf,
Do you want to be the patient 8% of the time my team fails?
How about the passenger 8% of the time the plane crashes?

I'm envious if your profession demands such low results.

Guess what,
My director and the ceo of the health system are WAY more demanding than me.
Because failure means someone gets hurt or dies.
 
Originally posted by SoufOaklin4Life:
Smf,
Do you want to be the patient 8% of the time my team fails?
How about the passenger 8% of the time the plane crashes?

I'm envious if your profession demands such low results.

Guess what,
My director and the ceo of the health system are WAY more demanding than me.
Because failure means someone gets hurt or dies.
Obviously not but we don't live in some fantasy dream world. Does your heart surgeon's boss give him a goal of 100% successful sugeries? Yea right. Guess what, sometimes that surgeon is going to eff up and the patient dies on the table. That's life, that's reality. If his goal was 100% success, first of all, he'd start looking for a different hospital but if for some odd reason he stayed, he'd try to cheat the system. After all, he's human and humans cheat to reach unattainable goals to keep their jobs. One thing he might do is not recommend a potential life-saving surgery for somebody he's not completely sure will make it through the surgery. So, instead of the patient taking that 20% risk of dying on the table for 30 more years of life, they die of a heart attack a year later. Unreachable goals are bad for business. You should go to B-school.
 
Originally posted by geeman2001:
Well, it's much like those on these boards (and it seems only on Pitt boards) who spew rubbish like "I would be disgusted if Pitt put emphasis on winning in sports." Yet hang out on these Pitt sports message boards nearly 24x7 it seems. Trolls.

Winning sports can only help a school, and raise an already good one to nearly legendary status. Duke, Ohio State, Michigan, and many more are all much better schools than Pitt, yet crave and invest in having great sports. Why bother? Because of the untold revenue yes, but at least as much for the PR it brings.

Duke is not "DUKE" for its fine academics. Duke is "DUKE" for what happened 12 days ago. Which would happen if Pitt won too, especially in a (winning) sports-mad region.

It's one thing if you always sucked, but worse when you had success on a silver (more like platinum) platter and pissed it away. Pitt is now in danger of the ignominy of doing it in the two major sports. It was always a shame (and given the giant potential, tragedy isnt too strong a term) that Pitt squandered the elite football status it once had, and is well on the way to blowing it in basketball too.

But sucking does allow the Web trolls to beat their chest and celebrate "academic integrity". Again, nobody has less "integrity" than Ohio State sports (well, I guess a couple regional schools do sink lower, but barely). So how is it that OSU is more respected a school than Pitt?
Wait a second - "Duke is not DUKE for its fine academics"? Seriously? I understand this is a sports message board, but seriously that is complete absurdity.
 
I've gone to business school. Did you hear of the concept of six sigma?
Clearly you don't work in any kind of competitive or life dependent work.

Like i said.. Anything simply fielding a team and winning the championship is arbitrary and meaningless
 
Duke is just another fine university. It is a fine university for sure ... but there are many of them.

Duke becomes "DUKE" ... national icon university ... through it's champion basketball team.

And Pitt ... a fine university ... could become "PITT" if it had capitalized on its sports. Windows of opportunity were there. But Pitt p*ssed it away.

And all Pitt alums should want it, back it, push for it (and yes, donate toward it ... which I do) as much as the administration should. Because, sad as it is, the values of all our degrees go up when we are graduates from "PITT" rather than merely old Pitt.

And all those laments that individuals in other posts, that Pitt doesn't get respect in the state government, funding squashed, struggling to raise funds ... or even the lust for more grants ... those would largely be solved with winning sports. Pitt would get everything it wanted on a platinum platter from state and local government, and even higher profile from private and public research ... for being "PITT". Because of popularity from sports. It's a sad statement on society but absolutely true.
 
There clearly is no consensus about what fans want, except EVERYBODY wants to win. I would suggest that many of the opinions expressed on this board are close to the extreme and probably not that representative of the fan base as a whole. Many of the loudest critics were just as critical when we lost in the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 as they are today when we missed the tournament. Fan is derived from fanatic after all.

There are differences of opinion about reasonable goals.

Souf's point about striving for perfection is not wrong, but clearly, some activities require perfection and others do not. Sports is clearly in the group that does not. One team wins the championship and none have gone udefeated since 1976.

Yesterday was a bad day for Pitt basketball. The board was in near meltdown mode because a teenager announced a change that had been strongly rumored and expected for months. Vitriol was spewed back and forth. Figurative clothng was rended, teeth gnashed and much wailing ensued. The death of the basketball program was declared.

Looking at it on a rational basis, yesterday was pretty silly. Sports is entertainment. If we are in meltdown over something like yesterday, something is wrong in our lives.

No matter how bad yesterday seemed or the perceptions of the program are, the sun came up this morning. It will rise again tomorrow, even if obscurred by rain clouds. Life goes on.

Pitt will field a basketball team next Fall and Winter. The team will probably win more games than it loses. It may or may not be a tournament level team. Nothing we do will affect that.

Somebody closer to the program pointed out to me that this Spring is not so different from many other years, even through the good years. We had big names decommit before. We missed on targets and took Plan B and C guys. The difference today is that because of the internet, and sites like this, we simply have a LOT more information. We live and die on some teenager's decision AND we know it immediately.

Instant knowledge allows instant opinion and analysis, too often made in a sensationalist manner. We Yinzers always tend to accentuate the negative.

I'm not in denial that the program is at or quickly approaching a crossroads. We could be going down a steep and slippery slope. All is not lost, yet because we have all but one rotation player back from a team that just missed the bubble and the core will be there for two seasons, absent any other key defections.

As Whirlybird points out, Jamie Dixon is probably two more missed tournaments from realistically facing dismissal. If he misses 3 tournaments 8n a row, he probably SHOULD be replaced, but in an Athletic Department that hemorrages red ink, his buyout will be difficult to swallow even then.

We'll sign some players. We'll play next season. Either we get better or we don't. Unless Pitt finds a T Boone Pickins-type booster with deep pockets, we'll have to play this out patiently. Past history suggests a lot more unsuccessful coaching searches thsn successful ones. And, despite the frequent clamor for a "Pitt guy", it is difficult to name one who has been successful here.
 
And being from Pittsburgh, I know many a folk who don't only meltdown for Pitt hoops, but also Pitt FB, Steelers, Pens and Pirates. I just don't know how they find the energy to be continually outraged year round.
 
Wow! When Harve is hinting that firing Jamie Dixon is a possibility in the next few years things must be not so good right now.
 
Kiwi hit the nail on the head....pittsburgh fans are probably some if the worst. Wanting to fire bylsma and Sheri was absurdity..people constantly want to can tomlin. Even with the pirates doing a complete 180, fans still only b1tch about ownership.

It truly is a myopic sports town that fails to appreciate how good they have it.
 
And this is a fanbase that even when pitt was going great in bball called the program mediocre, and an admittedly mediocre football program a "dumpster fire."
 
It is not yet as bad as it seems


Originally posted by IamHeisenberg:
Wow! When Harve is hinting that firing Jamie Dixon is a possibility in the next few years things must be not so good right now.
For any school which is not a blue blood, the slope from success to falling back into the pack is VERY steep. One or two bad classes can send a team into a downward spiral. We had two, due to the early departures and, I believe, a flawed recruiting strategy.

That's were we are. It remains to be seen whether it is a blip or a trend. But, when the spiral starts, it is often severe in college basketball.

We have a team coming back which just missed the bubble. It's not like we lost 25 games. But the perception of our fan base seems to be the later.

As Matt and the Chair have said, this Spring and the 2016 class will likely tell the story of our future.

It can be salvaged and we can rise again. We may never be elite. But, we beat Cuse and UConn and Duke in the Garden. We can get THERE again.

Or, it can collapse and we could become Duquesne, a once great program that is now an afterthought.

As Kiwi and others have pointed out, this is not a town which supports losers. We don't support winners all that well.

If our returning team and the recruiting classes don't show promise, the new Administration can be content to be average. Or ,they can spend a lot of money and try to return to Top 25 status. If that happens, Jamie could be gone. IF elite staus is their goal, and we don't turn it around in two more seasons, as I said, he probaby should be gone,

Like everyone else, I think I know what they should choose, but I have no idea which they will choose.

I don't think the new Chancellor has a much different philosophy for basketball than he did football. He didn't fire Chryst, despite worse insults from our lunatic fringe than Dixon has suffered yet. He actually tried to extend him and give him a raise. despite lofty words about excellence in all thngs as a goal, I doubt he really means he's gonna go all SEC and throw money at sports. I don't think we'll fire Dixon. But, he's not Nordenberg. Who knows for sure?

Look, I think Dixon can recover and have at worst, a Gene Keady career. At one time he looked like a HOF guy but that aura has faded a bit. I still think he's a fine coach and we're lucky to have him.

But, I'm not going to make the mistake many of the lunatic fringe make and expect my opinion is the only possible one the administration could have.

Anything could happen.

.
 
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