Is Sanderson dirty??
- Thread starter TTOWN2
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He 's big buds with Jody Stritmatter, asst coach at UPJ. Spends time at
camps there, and wit Stritmatter's club Young Guns. You may recall Stritmatter won a div. 2 title his soph year at UPJ than transferred to Iowa his last two years. He finished second his last season at NCAA. Young Guns has not been of any help to Pitt. I put that on Pitt.
This post was edited on 3/23 1:22 PM by Somerset Panther
camps there, and wit Stritmatter's club Young Guns. You may recall Stritmatter won a div. 2 title his soph year at UPJ than transferred to Iowa his last two years. He finished second his last season at NCAA. Young Guns has not been of any help to Pitt. I put that on Pitt.
This post was edited on 3/23 1:22 PM by Somerset Panther
Sanderson is a great coach and even better person. That thinking is silly....nothing but respect for Cael and what he's has done as a wrestler and Coach. His kids, are high character and he runs great program on and off the mats. I know because he's tied to PSU, we have a tendency to lump him in with the others...trust me, that thinking is wrong. Pitt needs and should be a top 5-10 program every year. If the new AD commits to that goal, we can do it.
NO....Cael Sanders may be the greatest wrestler this Country has ever produced. Kids want to wrestle for him and be around him. PSU committed big time to wrestling the minute they stepped up($$$) and brought Sanderson to State College. Plus Cael, understands that PA produces a lot of great talent in terms of recruiting. it's why he took the job.
By PSU stepping up, you mean their boosters stepped up to pay for Cael's salary.
Penn State wrestling has about a $16 million endowment. I don't think Pitt wrestling has even half a million. Heck, I'm not sure Pitt football has $16 million.
I'm not expecting Pitt to compete with PSU in terms of those $$$. Cause it's probably being unrealistic. However, with the right financial backing, the program(just w/ talent in our State-PSU won't get them all) could be even better. Top 5 IMO. There needs to be more of a commitment to get there. The key is have a great practice room( I'm not talking facilities), competition, and that means more quality kids. Pitt has had some great wrestlers over the years and I see that continuing...we need more support to be Great.
This post was edited on 3/22 11:38 AM by 33Rocks
TTown -- The fact that you have to ask what the tension is between the Iowa State fan base and Cael Sanderson suggests you don't know much about college wrestling.
Like them or hate them, as a member of the Big 10, PSU realized they were located in the middle of the top HS wrestling state and developed a strategy to elevate the PSU wrestling program into a perennial national title contender. That strategy included increased funding and support from the administration and alumni, investments in facilities and staff and hiring the sports only 4 time undefeated national champion as their head coach. When Sanderson is sitting in a top recruits living room the fact that he is a man of faith and an Olympic Champion go a long way towards helping both the parents and the wrestler to choose PSU. I have no ties to either Pitt or PSU and get the rivalry between the fan bases. I don't understand how making unfounded claims of cheating and alleging that Sanderson is dirty helps Pitt's cause.
Your attacks (as well as others on this board) towards Young Guns and Jodie Strittmatter are totally unfounded. In addition to being one of the top wrestling clubs in the country it is also a business. Young Guns ability to develop and produce elite talent is nationally known and speaks for itself. Equally important is the emphasis the Strittmatter's place on family, academics and leading a clean life style. Do those Young Guns kids good enough to earn a partial scholarship (very few, if any come close to a full ride) seek out the Strittmatter's advice before committing to a college? I would hope so as they most likely have known the kid and his family since elementary school. Do the Strittmatter's steer kids to PSU at the expense of other programs? I highly doubt it.
This past recruiting season there were around 15 kids associated with Young Guns that committed to D1 wrestling programs. In addition to PSU Young Guns kids also committed to Iowa, WVU, Lehigh, Virginia, Virginia Tech, NC State, North Carolina, Clarion, Edinboro, Bucknell and probably others as well. To allege that Young Guns only sends kids to PSU doesn't hold water. From a business perspective it doesn't make sense to steer kids away from a particular school; especially one in their backyard.
I am optimistic that Pitt can rise and one day contend for a national title. It won't be easy and will require the administration to increase the programs funding and support. My recommendation to Pitt fans is to focus on improving the program from within. Support the team, go to the matches, be a part of the future you want to see for the program. Littering message boards with unfounded allegations isn't helping the Pitt program.
Like them or hate them, as a member of the Big 10, PSU realized they were located in the middle of the top HS wrestling state and developed a strategy to elevate the PSU wrestling program into a perennial national title contender. That strategy included increased funding and support from the administration and alumni, investments in facilities and staff and hiring the sports only 4 time undefeated national champion as their head coach. When Sanderson is sitting in a top recruits living room the fact that he is a man of faith and an Olympic Champion go a long way towards helping both the parents and the wrestler to choose PSU. I have no ties to either Pitt or PSU and get the rivalry between the fan bases. I don't understand how making unfounded claims of cheating and alleging that Sanderson is dirty helps Pitt's cause.
Your attacks (as well as others on this board) towards Young Guns and Jodie Strittmatter are totally unfounded. In addition to being one of the top wrestling clubs in the country it is also a business. Young Guns ability to develop and produce elite talent is nationally known and speaks for itself. Equally important is the emphasis the Strittmatter's place on family, academics and leading a clean life style. Do those Young Guns kids good enough to earn a partial scholarship (very few, if any come close to a full ride) seek out the Strittmatter's advice before committing to a college? I would hope so as they most likely have known the kid and his family since elementary school. Do the Strittmatter's steer kids to PSU at the expense of other programs? I highly doubt it.
This past recruiting season there were around 15 kids associated with Young Guns that committed to D1 wrestling programs. In addition to PSU Young Guns kids also committed to Iowa, WVU, Lehigh, Virginia, Virginia Tech, NC State, North Carolina, Clarion, Edinboro, Bucknell and probably others as well. To allege that Young Guns only sends kids to PSU doesn't hold water. From a business perspective it doesn't make sense to steer kids away from a particular school; especially one in their backyard.
I am optimistic that Pitt can rise and one day contend for a national title. It won't be easy and will require the administration to increase the programs funding and support. My recommendation to Pitt fans is to focus on improving the program from within. Support the team, go to the matches, be a part of the future you want to see for the program. Littering message boards with unfounded allegations isn't helping the Pitt program.
great post!! Strittmatter has a great thing going with "Young Guns"...Between PA All American(Waller) and Young Gun's...These clubs are doing great things developing wrestlers. Jodie, is an Iowa grad.....He does not steer kids to programs he developed kids to be their best.
Attacks by me?? Not in the least..I'm just curious about some , as you say attack him..I for one wasn't .Other than your "attack" on me, which is unfounded, your post is very good....being a novice about the state of college is true...just trying come up to speed that's all!! Htp/Forever!!!
Needanap, A QUESTION ?? ......
Thanks for the post ...... a lot of good information there.
My question is ..... of those ~15 DI wrestling recruits that came out of "Young Guns" the last recruiting year, how many are going to Pitt ?
Thanks for the post ...... a lot of good information there.
My question is ..... of those ~15 DI wrestling recruits that came out of "Young Guns" the last recruiting year, how many are going to Pitt ?
Re: Needanap, A QUESTION ?? ......
Goaliman -- Off the top of my head, I'm not aware that any of the Young Gun kids are going to Pitt, but I could be wrong. What I can tell you is that all of the top kids are being recruited on a national level. All of the top tier Young Guns kids have multiple opportunities from top programs. Typically their decision comes down to how they see themselves fitting into the program, chemistry with coaches, quality of team mates, etc.
Currently Pitt isn't in the conversation with the elite kids as they are picking between perennial top 5 programs. This won't change until Pitt consistently wins. IMO, where Pitt is loosing the recruiting battle is with the other ACC schools. VA Tech, VA, UNC, NC State have all staked a claim in Western PA. This past recruiting season the ACC coaches were tripping over each other trying to visit the Young Guns practices and camps. WVU is also on the upswing after hiring Sammy Henson
This year's PSU recruiting class has only one Elite level kid in Vincenzo Joseph as they are limited after the large class from last year. Over the past several years Sanderson has targeted the national Elite (Nolf, Nickal, Nevils, Joseph) and have surrounded them with quality PA wrestlers. Most end up being "room" guys with some of them cracking the lineup. Sanderson/PSU currently have a strong brand and a lot to offer a kid and will continue to get these 2nd tier quality PA kids for a fraction of what the other schools need to offer. Others, particularly Big 10 schools like Ohio State have taken notice and are following the blue print that PSU implemented.
After Joseph, this year in the WPIAL there were another (5 to7) elite kids (nationally ranked in the top 5 of their weight class) that chose to leave PA. Last years class the numbers were a little lower but still the same result. These kids are being presented with many quality options to choose from. The local recruiting game has gone national and the top kids understand their value in the market.
Goaliman -- Off the top of my head, I'm not aware that any of the Young Gun kids are going to Pitt, but I could be wrong. What I can tell you is that all of the top kids are being recruited on a national level. All of the top tier Young Guns kids have multiple opportunities from top programs. Typically their decision comes down to how they see themselves fitting into the program, chemistry with coaches, quality of team mates, etc.
Currently Pitt isn't in the conversation with the elite kids as they are picking between perennial top 5 programs. This won't change until Pitt consistently wins. IMO, where Pitt is loosing the recruiting battle is with the other ACC schools. VA Tech, VA, UNC, NC State have all staked a claim in Western PA. This past recruiting season the ACC coaches were tripping over each other trying to visit the Young Guns practices and camps. WVU is also on the upswing after hiring Sammy Henson
This year's PSU recruiting class has only one Elite level kid in Vincenzo Joseph as they are limited after the large class from last year. Over the past several years Sanderson has targeted the national Elite (Nolf, Nickal, Nevils, Joseph) and have surrounded them with quality PA wrestlers. Most end up being "room" guys with some of them cracking the lineup. Sanderson/PSU currently have a strong brand and a lot to offer a kid and will continue to get these 2nd tier quality PA kids for a fraction of what the other schools need to offer. Others, particularly Big 10 schools like Ohio State have taken notice and are following the blue print that PSU implemented.
After Joseph, this year in the WPIAL there were another (5 to7) elite kids (nationally ranked in the top 5 of their weight class) that chose to leave PA. Last years class the numbers were a little lower but still the same result. These kids are being presented with many quality options to choose from. The local recruiting game has gone national and the top kids understand their value in the market.
Cael is an excellent coach and runs a good program. At ISU he was assistant coach under Bobby Douglas. He forced ISU to get rid of Bobby as head coach or he was leaving. ISU caved in to Cael making him head coach. Soon after he left ISU to go to PSU as well as taking his top recruits leaving ISU barren. He also trashed the program as he left which was not needed. iSU still has not recovered from this. His only shady thing against him was his recruitment of Dylan Long who was an outstanding wrestler who was at ISU at the time. Dylan was on suspension for beating up policeman while drunk. Dylan was alcoholic and needed big time help. He was an Iowa kid, by the way. He was required to under go rehab at ISU in order to get back to wrestling. Cael recruited him to PSU at mid semester break and allowed him to wrestle immediately without proper over site for his probems. He took 3rd at NCAA's that year giving PSU their first NCAA tittle. Dylan had continued his drinking and got into trouble several times and finally was charged with rape and ended up in Jail. At that time he was dismissed from the team! Iowa people blame Cael for not getting the kid help and winning being more important than this kids well being.
hey nap...
I in no way was insinuating any of what you stated in your first message. If it came off that way it was not meant to. As I ended my message the blame lies with Pitt, not Young Guns.
I in no way was insinuating any of what you stated in your first message. If it came off that way it was not meant to. As I ended my message the blame lies with Pitt, not Young Guns.
I don't think Sanderson cheats in the normal sense that term is used. I think he does have a great brand to sell with 4 titles in 5 years and he is an aggressive recruiter. The only present coach who has a similar pedigree as a wrestler is John Smith at Oklahoma State, and he is significantly older so many of these kids have no idea who he is. Sanderson is still in his 30s and can relate to the kids well.
I do think he does more to try to intimidate refs than any other coach I have seen. He was pretty quiet when Taylor and Ruth wrestled last year because he didn't have to say anything. But when he has a wrestler like Mike Brown, who doesn't have much ability to get takedowns against good wrestlers, Sanderson pulls out all the stops. During Brown's match with Evans of Iowa, he started yelling that Evans was stalling 30 seconds into the match and never stopped. That ref wasn't intimidated however. The fact was that neither Brown nor Evans took many shots during the match. Tom Brands of Iowa is a fiery coach but he pales next to Sanderson in berating officials during the match. I was hoping for Evans to win because I strongly believe Ter would have beaten him, but Evans won because he escaped when he was in the down position
Sanderson employed the same tactic against Wilps. To be fair, Tyler didn't take that many shots. Brown makes it hard to take many shots at him by constantly controlling the opponent's head and pushing him away so he can't get close enough to take shots. To me, that is just as much stalling as not taking shots. But it is never called. Brown takes what I would call half-shots, two or so a period. He will go for a single leg but he usually does it near the edge of the mat where either wrestler can get out of bounds. In other words, Brown is a wrestler who looks like he is moving forward and is busy when he really makes very little effort to score against good wrestlers.
Against Tyler, the ref appeared influenced by Sanderson, and called Tyler for stalling relatively early in the match. The first stalling call is only a warning, but the second results in the reward of a point to your opponent. So in that match, the warning was critical. I don't think Sanderson thought Tyler could ride Brown, but when Brown didn't escape quickly and Tyler was holding his leg, Samderson started yelling stalling immediately. They have changed the rules so much that I am not 100% certain what the rule is, but it appears to be that if you are holding your opponent's leg while in control you have to work up and get above his waist within five seconds. The ref is supposed to start a count -- "one thousand and one, one thousand and two, etc" to warn the wrestler in control and if he fails to work up to his opponents waist by one thousand and five, it is stalling. With 20 seconds left, they went out of bounds. When they came back to the middle with Tyler in the up position, Brown managed to get to his feet with16 seconds left but Tyler had his left leg. I didn't hear any audible count started and it was at least six seconds before Brown hopped out of bounds to set up a new start in the center. The same thing happened again. Again I didn't hear an audible count, perhaps because Sanderson was yelling so loud. Tyler did manage to work to Brown's waist but the ref had already called stalling. That cost him the tying point. The tech violation of clasped hands cost him the final point and the match. Again the rules have changed so much that I am not sure what clasped hands now means. It used to mean interlocking your fingers.
The point is that it wasn't called on the mat. Sanderson protested and the result was changed. On television one of the two expert commentators said he thought there had been a violation, but it wasn't clear if it had occurred before time expired. The other expert said he wasn't sure there had been a violation but agreed with the first that if there was one it was impossible to determine it happened before time expired. The rule on use of the replay requires indisputable evidence to overturn it, but the ref took relatively little time to award the point and the match to Brown. I think he was intimidated by Sanderson into both calls. He also had reversed an earlier escape by Tyler. On that occasion, when Sanderson took his green flag over to make the priest, instead of just putting it in the holder as other coaches did, Sanderson waved it around for a good ten seconds drawing all of the attention in the building to him. It was purely a show of ego. On that replay both experts said there was not indisputable evidence to reverse the call on the mat of an escape because it was impossible to tell when Brown went out of bounds. Yet,it was reversed despite the fact that very few calls were reversed in the tournament.
The bottom line is that IMHO Sanderson's intimidation resulted in three calls being reversed in the final minute of the match.
thom67 mentioned Sanderson forcing out Bobby Douglas at ISU. Loyalty clearly is not one of his strong suits. Recruiting is. Winning is band that is why wrestlers want to go to PSU to wrestle for him. One of the two lightweight for him this year, either Conaway or Guilibom, walked on at PSU rather than accepting a scholarship from another school. Even though most of tOSU's squad returns next year and PSU loses 4 2015 starters, I think PSU will be favored to win the title next year. They redshirted two All Americans this year, at 125 and 141. They also redshirted the entire freshman class, which included 3 of the top 10 HS wrestlers last year plus 3 other very highly ranked wrestlers. Pitt had one AA this year, which is pathetic. PSU could have 8 or 9 next year.
I do think he does more to try to intimidate refs than any other coach I have seen. He was pretty quiet when Taylor and Ruth wrestled last year because he didn't have to say anything. But when he has a wrestler like Mike Brown, who doesn't have much ability to get takedowns against good wrestlers, Sanderson pulls out all the stops. During Brown's match with Evans of Iowa, he started yelling that Evans was stalling 30 seconds into the match and never stopped. That ref wasn't intimidated however. The fact was that neither Brown nor Evans took many shots during the match. Tom Brands of Iowa is a fiery coach but he pales next to Sanderson in berating officials during the match. I was hoping for Evans to win because I strongly believe Ter would have beaten him, but Evans won because he escaped when he was in the down position
Sanderson employed the same tactic against Wilps. To be fair, Tyler didn't take that many shots. Brown makes it hard to take many shots at him by constantly controlling the opponent's head and pushing him away so he can't get close enough to take shots. To me, that is just as much stalling as not taking shots. But it is never called. Brown takes what I would call half-shots, two or so a period. He will go for a single leg but he usually does it near the edge of the mat where either wrestler can get out of bounds. In other words, Brown is a wrestler who looks like he is moving forward and is busy when he really makes very little effort to score against good wrestlers.
Against Tyler, the ref appeared influenced by Sanderson, and called Tyler for stalling relatively early in the match. The first stalling call is only a warning, but the second results in the reward of a point to your opponent. So in that match, the warning was critical. I don't think Sanderson thought Tyler could ride Brown, but when Brown didn't escape quickly and Tyler was holding his leg, Samderson started yelling stalling immediately. They have changed the rules so much that I am not 100% certain what the rule is, but it appears to be that if you are holding your opponent's leg while in control you have to work up and get above his waist within five seconds. The ref is supposed to start a count -- "one thousand and one, one thousand and two, etc" to warn the wrestler in control and if he fails to work up to his opponents waist by one thousand and five, it is stalling. With 20 seconds left, they went out of bounds. When they came back to the middle with Tyler in the up position, Brown managed to get to his feet with16 seconds left but Tyler had his left leg. I didn't hear any audible count started and it was at least six seconds before Brown hopped out of bounds to set up a new start in the center. The same thing happened again. Again I didn't hear an audible count, perhaps because Sanderson was yelling so loud. Tyler did manage to work to Brown's waist but the ref had already called stalling. That cost him the tying point. The tech violation of clasped hands cost him the final point and the match. Again the rules have changed so much that I am not sure what clasped hands now means. It used to mean interlocking your fingers.
The point is that it wasn't called on the mat. Sanderson protested and the result was changed. On television one of the two expert commentators said he thought there had been a violation, but it wasn't clear if it had occurred before time expired. The other expert said he wasn't sure there had been a violation but agreed with the first that if there was one it was impossible to determine it happened before time expired. The rule on use of the replay requires indisputable evidence to overturn it, but the ref took relatively little time to award the point and the match to Brown. I think he was intimidated by Sanderson into both calls. He also had reversed an earlier escape by Tyler. On that occasion, when Sanderson took his green flag over to make the priest, instead of just putting it in the holder as other coaches did, Sanderson waved it around for a good ten seconds drawing all of the attention in the building to him. It was purely a show of ego. On that replay both experts said there was not indisputable evidence to reverse the call on the mat of an escape because it was impossible to tell when Brown went out of bounds. Yet,it was reversed despite the fact that very few calls were reversed in the tournament.
The bottom line is that IMHO Sanderson's intimidation resulted in three calls being reversed in the final minute of the match.
thom67 mentioned Sanderson forcing out Bobby Douglas at ISU. Loyalty clearly is not one of his strong suits. Recruiting is. Winning is band that is why wrestlers want to go to PSU to wrestle for him. One of the two lightweight for him this year, either Conaway or Guilibom, walked on at PSU rather than accepting a scholarship from another school. Even though most of tOSU's squad returns next year and PSU loses 4 2015 starters, I think PSU will be favored to win the title next year. They redshirted two All Americans this year, at 125 and 141. They also redshirted the entire freshman class, which included 3 of the top 10 HS wrestlers last year plus 3 other very highly ranked wrestlers. Pitt had one AA this year, which is pathetic. PSU could have 8 or 9 next year.
