NBA fans, need some help here.....

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

What exactly is it with home court advantage?

In hockey I can see a bit cause you have last line change matchups, you get a slight advantage on faceoffs etc....

In baseball I can see it because you get last at bat, and ballpark configurations are unique that you build your teams to match those configurations and take advantage of them.

Football? Less so, but your offense has to call signals in hostile loud environments.

Basketball? 10 foot hoops, 94 foot courts, how is home court such a dominant factor in the NBA playoffs?

 

[Tony Zimmermans Dennys Adversary]

What exactly is it with home court advantage?

In hockey I can see a bit cause you have last line change matchups, you get a slight advantage on faceoffs etc....

In baseball I can see it because you get last at bat, and ballpark configurations are unique that you build your teams to match those configurations and take advantage of them.

Football? Less so, but your offense has to call signals in hostile loud environments.

Basketball? 10 foot hoops, 94 foot courts, how is home court such a dominant factor in the NBA playoffs?

They feed off of the crowds energy in a big way. Plus the home team is at home with the family instead of being out all night running through the groupies. The amount of girls that flock to an NBA road teams hotel lobby is astounding.

 

[PeetWeet1]

What exactly is it with home court advantage?

In hockey I can see a bit cause you have last line change matchups, you get a slight advantage on faceoffs etc....

In baseball I can see it because you get last at bat, and ballpark configurations are unique that you build your teams to match those configurations and take advantage of them.

Football? Less so, but your offense has to call signals in hostile loud environments.

Basketball? 10 foot hoops, 94 foot courts, how is home court such a dominant factor in the NBA playoffs?

Refs. Like soccer, lots of calls that can go either way. More go for the home team.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

Refs. Like soccer, lots of calls that can go either way. More go for the home team.

There is a book called Scorecasting. Their argument is that the more that refs can impact the outcome of a game, the bigger the home court/field advantage. In basketball, the refs make A LOT of calls.

The theory, as much as you can measure it, is that refs are human beings who want people to like them, so they play more to the home crowd even if its only on the sub-concious level.

I think that's the majority factor. There are smaller ones, like sleeping in your own bed instead of a hotel, practicing on your home court, etc.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

Also, a lot of these blow outs could be somewhat closer games except for the focus in the modern NBA on rest. Teams do seem to be taking a "ah crap we lost this one, give up on the 4th quarter and regroup for the next game" approach, rightly or wrongly.

 

[Thee Jackie Treehorn]

The court length and hoop heights are the same, but the visual environment around the court is slightly different in every arena. I imagine there would be some degree of advantage for shooters in being familiar with the home arena's particular sight lines.

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

Officiating. When the Knicks were mugging the Bulls in NYC Phil Jackson knew it wouldn’t be called that way in Chicago and he was right.

 

[Big Marty1]

Hockey has the least advantage. Every game has the same car horns, fans who sit and have very little opportunity to cheer, and the players say the venue and fans looks the same to them. Basketball home court is huge.

 

[BFo8]

There is a book called Scorecasting. Their argument is that the more that refs can impact the outcome of a game, the bigger the home court/field advantage. In basketball, the refs make A LOT of calls.

The theory, as much as you can measure it, is that refs are human beings who want people to like them, so they play more to the home crowd even if its only on the sub-concious level.

I think that's the majority factor. There are smaller ones, like sleeping in your own bed instead of a hotel, practicing on your home court, etc.

Scorecasting an excellent read on a variety of subjects.

 

[lilspainishflea]

Most of them (sleeping in your own bed, routine/fewer distractions, familiarity with the pre-game stuff, familiar sights and feels of the arena) have already been mentioned but the biggest one is just the psychological pump that comes from the crowd cheering you on. Basketball is played indoors and extremely close to the crowd. When the crowd is loud and cheering you, it gives you an extra little boost that can really help get you in the zone. That block or steal you made feels better. The thunderous dunk or key 3 pointer gets you a lot of noise. To a competitor, those things are what morning coffee is to us office workers.

Of the top 10 individual performances in NBA history, 7 were at home (and 2 of the 3 on the road were Jordan @ Jazz in the NBA Finals).

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

The third on the road had to be Magic's 42-15-7 versus Philly in 1980.

 

[Crimmins27]

Some good answers here. Also, NBA purists would argue that although the stars are always expected to play well, role players tend to play better at home. George Hill was much better in Cleveland than Boston was a good example.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The third on the road had to be Magic's 42-15-7 versus Philly in 1980.

That to me was incredible. Because Magic was a 19 year old rookie who was filling in for Kareem who missed the game because of migraines. IMO, the greatest performance in the finals ever.

Also, any GOAT conversation that doesn't include Magic are moot.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

That to me was incredible. Because Magic was a 19 year old rookie who was filling in for Kareem who missed the game because of migraines. IMO, the greatest performance in the finals ever.

Also, any GOAT conversation that doesn't include Magic are moot.

Magic was 21, and this was when Kareem sprained his ankle -- but yes, incredible performance. All time great.

He was the third player to win an NCAA tournament and NBA championship in back to back years. (First two were Bill Russell and Henry Bibby.)

Other classic finals performances
- Isiah 25 point guarter on one leg. Just insane, way more impressive to me than the magical Willis Reed moment.
- 1962, Elgin Baylor 61 points and 22 rebounds against the Celtics. Less remembered though because they lost the series
- Because in game 7, Bill Russell had 30 points and 40 rebounds. Blocks were not counted in those days, but most estimates were around 12 blocks as well.
- Bill Walton 20/23/7/8 in game six against the favored Sixers "superteam."
- Jordan flu game

Also, Larry Bird say this was the best game he ever played even if his stats weren't as crazy as some other nights:

 

[lilspainishflea]

Magic was 21, and this was when Kareem sprained his ankle -- but yes, incredible performance. All time great.

He was the third player to win an NCAA tournament and NBA championship in back to back years. (First two were Bill Russell and Henry Bibby.)

Other classic finals performances
- Isiah 25 point guarter on one leg. Just insane, way more impressive to me than the magical Willis Reed moment.
- 1962, Elgin Baylor 61 points and 22 rebounds against the Celtics. Less remembered though because they lost the series
- Because in game 7, Bill Russell had 30 points and 40 rebounds. Blocks were not counted in those days, but most estimates were around 12 blocks as well.
- Bill Walton 20/23/7/8 in game six against the favored Sixers "superteam."
- Jordan flu game

Also, Larry Bird say this was the best game he ever played even if his stats weren't as crazy as some other nights:

View embedded media

Jordan Flu game, Baylor, and Russell were all on there for me. As was Jordan's game 6 against the Jazz in 1998 (he also scored 45).

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

In the Willis Reed injury game (where he only had two field goals after returning, though was clearly inspirational to the team and fans), Walt Frazier had 36 points, 19 assists, 7 rebounds, and 5 steals. And that was on a 1970 Knicks team that was really all about team -- where everyone could pass, not individual stats.

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

Bird's 38-9-9 in Game 7 versus the Pistons in 1987 is his best game no one remembers.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

Bird's 38-9-9 in Game 7 versus the Pistons in 1987 is his best game no one remembers.

I think it's well remembered because isn't that the one where he stole the inbound pass and threw it to DJ for the layup? All time great play, more challenging an unexpected than the Henderson or Havlicek great Celtics steals.

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

I think it's well remembered because isn't that the one where he stole the inbound pass and threw it to DJ for the layup? All time great play, more challenging an unexpected than the Henderson or Havlicek great Celtics steals.

That was Game 5, which everyone remembers most.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

That was Game 5, which everyone remembers most.

Good call, my bad. Great series all around, it was a pretty heroic last stand by a Celtics team that got so injured and old so quickly. Len Bias should have been their sixth man that year...

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

Good call, my bad. Great series all around, it was a pretty heroic last stand by a Celtics team that got so injured and old so quickly. Len Bias should have been their sixth man that year...

Yeah, that team was so banged up. Bird and McHale were incredible that season. How Red didn't see that Michael Thompson was wasting away on the bench in San Antonio and the Lakers acquiring him was huge. It gave LA an edge off the bench.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Magic was 21, and this was when Kareem sprained his ankle -- but yes, incredible performance. All time great.

He was the third player to win an NCAA tournament and NBA championship in back to back years. (First two were Bill Russell and Henry Bibby.)

Other classic finals performances
- Isiah 25 point guarter on one leg. Just insane, way more impressive to me than the magical Willis Reed moment.
- 1962, Elgin Baylor 61 points and 22 rebounds against the Celtics. Less remembered though because they lost the series
- Because in game 7, Bill Russell had 30 points and 40 rebounds. Blocks were not counted in those days, but most estimates were around 12 blocks as well.
- Bill Walton 20/23/7/8 in game six against the favored Sixers "superteam."
- Jordan flu game

Also, Larry Bird say this was the best game he ever played even if his stats weren't as crazy as some other nights:

View embedded media

Serious question, what the hell was the league like back in the late 50's and early 60's when guys would put up obscene numbers??

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

Serious question, what the hell was the league like back in the late 50's and early 60's when guys would put up obscene numbers??

I always envisioned it like every team played Loyola Marymount-style basketball, just run and gun.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I always envisioned it like every team played Loyola Marymount-style basketball, just run and gun.

That's a part of it. The other part is that the difference between the best players in the league and even the average players in the league (to say nothing of the below average ones) was huge, much greater than it is now. I mean a guy like Chamberlain would have been a great player in any era, but back then he physically dominated most of his opponents in a way that is simply not possible today.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I always envisioned it like every team played Loyola Marymount-style basketball, just run and gun.

There are a few clips on YouTube worth checking out. It was indeed fast paced, not necessarily all fast breaks. But even in the half court offense, as soon as anyone was open, they'd generally just shoot. And they'd be open a lot because half court defense on guards was often "stand 5 feet away from them."

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

Yeah, that team was so banged up. Bird and McHale were incredible that season. How Red didn't see that Michael Thompson was wasting away on the bench in San Antonio and the Lakers acquiring him was huge. It gave LA an edge off the bench.

My counter argument to the 87 Lakers being the best all time team, besides arguing for like the 96 Bulls, is that it took them six games (and almost went to game seven, if Bird would have hit that good look buzzer beater) to beat such a beat up Celtics team.

Parish was injured most of the year. McHale played hurt, and was never the same by continuing to abuse the injured foot that series. Ainge was hurt. Walton played like 4 minutes a game and could barely stand up. Wedman was out altogether. Their bench was Darren Daye and Fred Roberts, who were sort of garbage players.

Oddly Bird was actually healthy I think. Pre-concrete moving injury, right?

That said, 87 Lakers were a great team. And Mychal Thompson was definitely part of it.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

That's a part of it. The other part is that the difference between the best players in the league and even the average players in the league (to say nothing of the below average ones) was huge, much greater than it is now. I mean a guy like Chamberlain would have been a great player in any era, but back then he physically dominated most of his opponents in a way that is simply not possible today.

I guess, sort of like what Women's basketball is like today in the respects of talent disparity.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

You know, this goes back to my comments on coaching. Coaching has evolved in all sports. Coaches cannot make shots. They cannot make great passes. But what they can do is coach defense, put players in positions to either make or stop plays, control pace....and I think has coaching evolved along with athleticism, obviously the "pace" is different.

In almost all sports, defense eventually catches up and passes up offense and rule changes are usually implemented to counter these changes.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

You know, this goes back to my comments on coaching. Coaching has evolved in all sports. Coaches cannot make shots. They cannot make great passes. But what they can do is coach defense, put players in positions to either make or stop plays, control pace....and I think has coaching evolved along with athleticism, obviously the "pace" is different.

In almost all sports, defense eventually catches up and passes up offense and rule changes are usually implemented to counter these changes.

Most of the great coaches in the NBA are either known as "player's coaches" or even if not, understand psychology and chemistry. And basically all were thought of as like "unflappable" and have a calming presence -- Jackson, Daly, Riley, Pop, Kerr, Carlisle, Sloan, Wilkens. Maybe I'm wrong but that seems to be a bigger factor than a lot of the strategy questions. Basically can they get the players to pay attention to them, buy in, and play as a team.

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

My counter argument to the 87 Lakers being the best all time team, besides arguing for like the 96 Bulls, is that it took them six games (and almost went to game seven, if Bird would have hit that good look buzzer beater) to beat such a beat up Celtics team.

Parish was injured most of the year. McHale played hurt, and was never the same by continuing to abuse the injured foot that series. Ainge was hurt. Walton played like 4 minutes a game and could barely stand up. Wedman was out altogether. Their bench was Darren Daye and Fred Roberts, who were sort of garbage players.

Oddly Bird was actually healthy I think. Pre-concrete moving injury, right?

That said, 87 Lakers were a great team. And Mychal Thompson was definitely part of it.

I want to say I read he hurt his back paving the driveway for his mom after the 1985 Finals. He told Bill Simmons he almost retired after the 1987-88 season because of the pain.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I want to say I read he hurt his back paving the driveway for his mom after the 1985 Finals. He told Bill Simmons he almost retired after the 1987-88 season because of the pain.

You might be right. He definitely had the back and Achilles problems for the rest of his career, whenever it exactly happened. Too bad his pro career started over five years after high school and then the injuries made him retire earlier too. Magic and Isiah also retired young in that era.

The BS Report interview with Bird was very good, covered all this, I just don't remember the details.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I guess, sort of like what Women's basketball is like today in the respects of talent disparity.

I think that's a good point. We definitely see that in the women's game today. The best players are just so much better than the "average" players. And then you get several of the best players on the same team and even a top 20-25 team simply cannot keep up with them on most nights.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I think that's a good point. We definitely see that in the women's game today. The best players are just so much better than the "average" players. And then you get several of the best players on the same team and even a top 20-25 team simply cannot keep up with them on most nights.

If you mean college basketball, definitely. The WNBA has good parity though. Basically every player, because the league is so small, was a high level college star.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

If you mean college basketball, definitely. The WNBA has good parity though. Basically every player, because the league is so small, was a high level college star.

Yes, I meant college. You have 4-5 programs getting the bulk of the talent and there are no "one and dones" and they just roll everyone else.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Oh back to my original "homecourt" factor, I don't know where you have to factor in the "JR Smith is a bonehead" factor.

JR Smith I believe was originally a UNC recruit who went straight to the league. He would have benefitted from one of UNC's patented fake courses such as "Understanding a Scoreboard"......

Jesus, no wonder why Jamie Dixon used to use 1000 time outs, he had to remind people of the score. Just kidding.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

lebron

+++ 51/8/8, all time type numbers.

--- all but forced the cavs to sign tristan thompson (2 points, 5 rebounds, 0 assists) and jr smith (dribble it out, shoot 3 for 10, go minus 22) to deals that give them the biggest payroll in the NBA for a sub-par supporting cast.

Warriors clearly miss Iguodala but they may not need him if Lebron can score 50 and lose.

 

[pitt2533]

JR Smith is a dope. Totally inexcusable on his part.

And has there ever been a player that could be hated more than Draymond Green. Wow I barely watch the NBA and I want to kick him in his teeth right through the TV.

 

[DT_PITT]

JR Smith is a dope. Totally inexcusable on his part.

And has there ever been a player that could be hated more than Draymond Green. Wow I barely watch the NBA and I want to kick him in his teeth right through the TV.

Not contesting the "hated" part, but I can't imagine a better piece that fits with Steph, KD and Klay.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

Draymond Green is a really unique player, I can think of very few guys who can guard 1-5 and are a triple double threat in NBA history. Lebron is one but obviously an all-timer. But Green is like a much more athletic Boris Diaw or a Dennis Rodman who can pass and shoot. A Bobby Jones who can guard centers. I don't know but he's a great find.

He gets away with a lot of crap because fights don't really exist in the NBA anymore. There is shoving, but no one wants to throw a punch or clear a bench and get suspended.