NCAA Wrestling Tournament

[Dallas Burgher]

I have a question: Based on the number of wrestlers each team sends to nationals, how many teams have a legitimate shot at a national championship?

Very complex question to answer. I know of one team that won the NCAA and I don't think they had anyone in the finals. This means placing people in the 3rd and on down positions is important but not necessarily the absolute answer if you have some winners. Obviously the more you have in the tournament the better off you are.

 

[pittwrestlingfan]

I have a question: Based on the number of wrestlers each team sends to nationals, how many teams have a legitimate shot at a national championship?

Very complex question to answer. I know of one team that won the NCAA and I don't think they had anyone in the finals. This means placing people in the 3rd and on down positions is important but not necessarily the absolute answer if you have some winners. Obviously the more you have in the tournament the better off you are.

The critical factor at least in most recent years has been not so much the number of wrestlers that qualify, or even the number of wrestlers that become All Americans, but the number of wrestlers that place very high. For example, if Penn State had only brought its five finalists to the tournament, it still would have won this year this year. Generally speaking, the teams that are regarded as having a legitimate shot qualify at least 7 for Nationals. But, you'll see that some teams qualify all ten for Nationals but are actually not serious contenders.

 

[mike412]

The number of wrestlers you send to the NCAAs can be a good indicator, or it can be meaningless. For example, WVU beat Pitt in the dual meet and, shockingly, is a better program than us, but they only sent 2 wrestlers to the NCAAs. Why? Because the B12 is the #2 wrestling conference in the country, even though none of the Texas schools have wrestling teams. Therefore, it is much harder to qualify for one of those slots.

The best indicator is how a team did in its conference tourney if it is in a good conference because tournament wrestling is different than dual meet wrestling. The scoring puts a premium on scoring bonus points -- a pin, technical fall or major decision. And it has a wrestle-back system. Once you lose, you go into a consolation bracket where you can keep advancing and scoring points until you lose a second time. You can lose in the first round and still become an All-American through advancing in the wrestle-backs.

Under Sanderson, PSU has excelled at racking up bonus points and maximizing results in the wrestle-backs. Sanderson recruits pinners: Retherford had pins or technical falls (where the match is stopped because one wrestler is so far ahead) in all but one of his matches. When he won 3 NCAA titles at PSU, David Taylor was a pinning machine. Most of his matches ended in the first round.

I believe Oklahoma State actually qualified one more wrestler than PSU did, and VT, Iowa and NC State qualified the same number. tOSU qualified one less. But, although PSU only had 2 individual champions, they ran away with the team championship through racking up bonus points and doing well in wrestle-backs.

In Stottlemyre's final decade and under Peters, one thing the dedicated wrestling fans here consistently noticed was Pitt wrestlers fading in matches. They lost a lot of matches in the third period, and in the wrestle-backs they tend not to advance very far, if at all. This year. Bentley won his first wrestle-back and Forys won 2. They were the only 2 Pitt wrestlers to score. Having wrestlers like Campbell and Bono qualify for the NCAAs by finishing 4th and 5th in their weight classes (out of 6)
at the ACC tourney was meaningless because they both went 0-2 at the NCAAs. Bono actually lost 2 straight matches in the ACC tourney but because the ACC somehow was allocated 5 slots at 197, he wrestled the other wrestler who went 0-2 and beat him to qualify. Geno Morelli, who transferred from Pitt to PSU and only wrestled there this year due to injuries, scored more points than Bentley, and all but one other PSU wrestler scored more points than Forys. If the lowest 3 ranked PSU wrestlers hadn't been in the tournament, they still would have won the championship because their top 6 wrestlers outscored every other team.

PSU is very young this year in most weights above 141 so Sanderson had limited scholarships available. He signed 2 wrestlers rated #1 in their weight classes and one rated #12. The #12 kid is from out here in California, and I asked around a little and was told he is a flat-out pinner. Obviously Sanderson sees something in him that causes him to believe the kid will be a bonus point scorer in tourneys. I guarantee you that he could have signed a higher ranked wrestler in that kid's weight class.

Another reason why Peters' recruiting is so inexcusable is that I believe the total scholarships you can give in wrestling is 9.7. That means most of the wrestlers are on less than a full ride. That should mean it should be easier to get kids to stay in their home state for college because most strong wrestling teams (Cornell and Lehigh excepted) are state schools and tuition usually is far lower for in-state students. It hasn't helped Pitt one bit. In the last 2 years only 1 highly ranked WPIAL wrestler has signed with PSU. Others have gone to UVA, Iowa, tOSU, NC State, Arizona State and Maryland rather than Pitt even though their parents will be paying a lot more. Morelli was on scholarship at Pitt but transferred to PSU as a walk-on. Jimmy Guillibon from Derry turned down a scholarship from Pitt to walk-on at PSU. That illustrates how important coaching is to these kids.

(I was typing this while the other two posts went up, so this repeats much of what they both accurately say.)

 

[Dallas Burgher]

The critical factor at least in most recent years has been not so much the number of wrestlers that qualify, or even the number of wrestlers that become All Americans, but the number of wrestlers that place very high. For example, if Penn State had only brought its five finalists to the tournament, it still would have won this year this year. Generally speaking, the teams that are regarded as having a legitimate shot qualify at least 7 for Nationals. But, you'll see that some teams qualify all ten for Nationals but are actually not serious contenders.

Thanks for the info. I didn't know seven was the number. It makes sense.

 

[pittwrestlingfan]

The number of wrestlers you send to the NCAAs can be a good indicator, or it can be meaningless. For example, WVU beat Pitt in the dual meet and, shockingly, is a better program than us, but they only sent 2 wrestlers to the NCAAs. Why? Because the B12 is the #2 wrestling conference in the country, even though none of the Texas schools have wrestling teams. Therefore, it is much harder to qualify for one of those slots.

The best indicator is how a team did in its conference tourney if it is in a good conference because tournament wrestling is different than dual meet wrestling. The scoring puts a premium on scoring bonus points -- a pin, technical fall or major decision. And it has a wrestle-back system. Once you lose, you go into a consolation bracket where you can keep advancing and scoring points until you lose a second time. You can lose in the first round and still become an All-American through advancing in the wrestle-backs.

Under Sanderson, PSU has excelled at racking up bonus points and maximizing results in the wrestle-backs. Sanderson recruits pinners: Retherford had pins or technical falls (where the match is stopped because one wrestler is so far ahead) in all but one of his matches. When he won 3 NCAA titles at PSU, David Taylor was a pinning machine. Most of his matches ended in the first round.

I believe Oklahoma State actually qualified one more wrestler than PSU did, and VT, Iowa and NC State qualified the same number. tOSU qualified one less. But, although PSU only had 2 individual champions, they ran away with the team championship through racking up bonus points and doing well in wrestle-backs.

In Stottlemyre's final decade and under Peters, one thing the dedicated wrestling fans here consistently noticed was Pitt wrestlers fading in matches. They lost a lot of matches in the third period, and in the wrestle-backs they tend not to advance very far, if at all. This year. Bentley won his first wrestle-back and Forys won 2. They were the only 2 Pitt wrestlers to score. Having wrestlers like Campbell and Bono qualify for the NCAAs by finishing 4th and 5th in their weight classes (out of 6)
at the ACC tourney was meaningless because they both went 0-2 at the NCAAs. Bono actually lost 2 straight matches in the ACC tourney but because the ACC somehow was allocated 5 slots at 197, he wrestled the other wrestler who went 0-2 and beat him to qualify. Geno Morelli, who transferred from Pitt to PSU and only wrestled there this year due to injuries, scored more points than Bentley, and all but one other PSU wrestler scored more points than Forys. If the lowest 3 ranked PSU wrestlers hadn't been in the tournament, they still would have won the championship because their top 6 wrestlers outscored every other team.

PSU is very young this year in most weights above 141 so Sanderson had limited scholarships available. He signed 2 wrestlers rated #1 in their weight classes and one rated #12. The #12 kid is from out here in California, and I asked around a little and was told he is a flat-out pinner. Obviously Sanderson sees something in him that causes him to believe the kid will be a bonus point scorer in tourneys. I guarantee you that he could have signed a higher ranked wrestler in that kid's weight class.

Another reason why Peters' recruiting is so inexcusable is that I believe the total scholarships you can give in wrestling is 9.7. That means most of the wrestlers are on less than a full ride. That should mean it should be easier to get kids to stay in their home state for college because most strong wrestling teams (Cornell and Lehigh excepted) are state schools and tuition usually is far lower for in-state students. It hasn't helped Pitt one bit. In the last 2 years only 1 highly ranked WPIAL wrestler has signed with PSU. Others have gone to UVA, Iowa, tOSU, NC State, Arizona State and Maryland rather than Pitt even though their parents will be paying a lot more. Morelli was on scholarship at Pitt but transferred to PSU as a walk-on. Jimmy Guillibon from Derry turned down a scholarship from Pitt to walk-on at PSU. That illustrates how important coaching is to these kids.

(I was typing this while the other two posts went up, so this repeats much of what they both accurately say.)

The number of wrestlers you send to the NCAAs can be a good indicator, or it can be meaningless. For example, WVU beat Pitt in the dual meet and, shockingly, is a better program than us, but they only sent 2 wrestlers to the NCAAs. Why? Because the B12 is the #2 wrestling conference in the country, even though none of the Texas schools have wrestling teams. Therefore, it is much harder to qualify for one of those slots.

The best indicator is how a team did in its conference tourney if it is in a good conference because tournament wrestling is different than dual meet wrestling. The scoring puts a premium on scoring bonus points -- a pin, technical fall or major decision. And it has a wrestle-back system. Once you lose, you go into a consolation bracket where you can keep advancing and scoring points until you lose a second time. You can lose in the first round and still become an All-American through advancing in the wrestle-backs.

Under Sanderson, PSU has excelled at racking up bonus points and maximizing results in the wrestle-backs. Sanderson recruits pinners: Retherford had pins or technical falls (where the match is stopped because one wrestler is so far ahead) in all but one of his matches. When he won 3 NCAA titles at PSU, David Taylor was a pinning machine. Most of his matches ended in the first round.

I believe Oklahoma State actually qualified one more wrestler than PSU did, and VT, Iowa and NC State qualified the same number. tOSU qualified one less. But, although PSU only had 2 individual champions, they ran away with the team championship through racking up bonus points and doing well in wrestle-backs.

In Stottlemyre's final decade and under Peters, one thing the dedicated wrestling fans here consistently noticed was Pitt wrestlers fading in matches. They lost a lot of matches in the third period, and in the wrestle-backs they tend not to advance very far, if at all. This year. Bentley won his first wrestle-back and Forys won 2. They were the only 2 Pitt wrestlers to score. Having wrestlers like Campbell and Bono qualify for the NCAAs by finishing 4th and 5th in their weight classes (out of 6)
at the ACC tourney was meaningless because they both went 0-2 at the NCAAs. Bono actually lost 2 straight matches in the ACC tourney but because the ACC somehow was allocated 5 slots at 197, he wrestled the other wrestler who went 0-2 and beat him to qualify. Geno Morelli, who transferred from Pitt to PSU and only wrestled there this year due to injuries, scored more points than Bentley, and all but one other PSU wrestler scored more points than Forys. If the lowest 3 ranked PSU wrestlers hadn't been in the tournament, they still would have won the championship because their top 6 wrestlers outscored every other team.

PSU is very young this year in most weights above 141 so Sanderson had limited scholarships available. He signed 2 wrestlers rated #1 in their weight classes and one rated #12. The #12 kid is from out here in California, and I asked around a little and was told he is a flat-out pinner. Obviously Sanderson sees something in him that causes him to believe the kid will be a bonus point scorer in tourneys. I guarantee you that he could have signed a higher ranked wrestler in that kid's weight class.

Another reason why Peters' recruiting is so inexcusable is that I believe the total scholarships you can give in wrestling is 9.7. That means most of the wrestlers are on less than a full ride. That should mean it should be easier to get kids to stay in their home state for college because most strong wrestling teams (Cornell and Lehigh excepted) are state schools and tuition usually is far lower for in-state students. It hasn't helped Pitt one bit. In the last 2 years only 1 highly ranked WPIAL wrestler has signed with PSU. Others have gone to UVA, Iowa, tOSU, NC State, Arizona State and Maryland rather than Pitt even though their parents will be paying a lot more. Morelli was on scholarship at Pitt but transferred to PSU as a walk-on. Jimmy Guillibon from Derry turned down a scholarship from Pitt to walk-on at PSU. That illustrates how important coaching is to these kids.

(I was typing this while the other two posts went up, so this repeats much of what they both accurately say.)

Thanks for the info. I didn't know seven was the number. It makes sense.

 

[pittwrestlingfan]

Sorry for the misfires.
I sympathesize, and to some extent agree, with many of the views that Mike offers on the subject of the Pitt program. As mentioned in an earlier post, it seems to me that, in a constructive way, we ought to try to communicate to the Athletic Director these concerns, recognizing that his time may be occupied for a while on another matter. But, by the same token, several "positive" or countervailing points are worthy of consideration.

1. The progression of Dom Forys in his short time at Pitt is surely to be applauded. And, by this, I refer not simply to his results -- which have been quite good -- but also to the generally aggressive and physical manner in which he wrestles. His approach could be usefully regarded as a model.
2. While Campbell, the 174 pounder, went 0-2 at the NCAA's, let's not forget that he was a rarity at the NCAA's, a true (not redshirt) freshman. Moreover, he was "in" both matches until the very end. He certainly looks to have a bright future IF he is developed properly (and probably after a redshirt season).
3. For decades, many elite wrestlers from Western PA have gone to schools other than Pitt; it's not a phenemon that just arose under the existing coaching regime. And, in some ways, the challenge of recruiting elite Western PA wrestlers is even greater now, because,with the internet and proliferation of wrestling sites etc., you don't need to be in Western PA to have access to video and results of our area's wrestlers. They are widely available to everyone throughout the country, and there just aren't many high ceiling wrestlers that are unknown to anyone outside of Pittsburgh. Moreover, Pitt not only has to compete against the nearby and "new" powerhouses like Penn State and Ohio State. In other words, if a local kid wants to be "close to home," he can be within a three hours drive at one of two schools that have won the last six NCAA's. If he wants to get away, there are lots of options too. Not for a second suggesting that the current results are remotely satisfactory or that Pitt shouldn't be expected to recruit at a higher and more consistent level. Just that it truly is a bigger challenge than may appear from the fact that the WPIAL is a hotbed of talented wrestlers.

 

[mike412]

I mentioned that Forys has improved. But you can't look at that in a vacuum -- it has to be balanced against Zanetta, Mikey, Cody and Bono not improving and, I would argue, regressing. I think Bono and Garbinsky both were worse wrestlers as seniors than they were as freshmen. I thought Bono showed some promise as a frosh. As a soph, I expected him to be a multiple ACC champion. But by any objective measure he went backward each of the past three years. I believe he finished worse in the ACC tourney each year. Mikey has a ton of talent but it was not developed. It was fun to watch his scrambling ability, which is not something that is taught, but not fun to watch his lack of discipline. He wrestled Retherford almost equally when both were true frosh. He wasn't in Retherford's league the past two years. He didn't get any stronger and wasn't well-conditioned, and that was apparent even though he dropped to 141 this season.

Cody has been a huge disappointment since day one. He showed a little promise at the beginning of this season but got progressively worse. I don't know what the deal is with Rizzo, but you have a two-time PIAA champion who was absolutely dominant and who can't even get on the mat at Pitt, requiring Solomon to move up to Hwt.

Ther certainly is a maturity difference between true and redshirt freshmen. But as John Cooper once said when explaining why he started Orlando Pace as a true freshman, if he'll bite you as a dog, then he'll bite you as a pup. I don't think Nico redshirted at PSU. I know that Retherford and McIntyre didn't. That is 3 of their finalists. The other two, Nolf and Nickels both did. I don't believe any of the three tOSU frosh who helped them win last year were redshirts. And my understanding is that Sanderson didn't redshirt the PSU frosh last year because he has a policy of redshirting. He did it because he knew they couldn't win the NCAAs last year and decided to give less talented upperclassmen a year in the sun. You think there is any way Campbell will be in Nickel's league next year?

As for recruiting, we never have gotten all the top WPIAL kids. We probably never will. But losing them all for two straight years? Losing them not to PSU (except for 1) or tOSU, but to NC State, UVA and Arizona State? Losing a Headlee to NC State when his cousin is a Pitt assistant?

This year, they did better in the WPIAL. They lost the best wrestler, Pletcher, but they got two kids who on paper look good, Bell and Wentzel. But neither had the HS career that Cody had. They have to be developed, and Peters simply hasn't proven he can do that.

As Pletcher's uncle said here, the family likes Peters as a person, but Luke wanted to go to a school where he could maximize his development as a wrestler. To me, that says it all.

As you point out, with the BB coaching search, I don't see Barnes having time to deal with this issue this year. I can tell you that it was raised with him at the ACC BB tourney, but then the Dixon saga began. So Peters will get one more year at a minimum almost by default.

I agree Pitt never had a chance with Lee even if PSU passes on him. But that is not because he hates Pitt. It is because none of the Franklin Regional top kids have considered Pitt because of the coaching situation, both with Rande and with Peters.

 

[thom67]

Nico and Zain both redshirted last year. Both wrestled as true freshman before red shirting. Most top wrestlers redshirt as freshman unless a team needs the freshman to win a NCAA team championship and the extra points are needed.

 

[pittwrestlingfan]

Nico and Zain both redshirted last year. Both wrestled as true freshman before red shirting. Most top wrestlers redshirt as freshman unless a team needs the freshman to win a NCAA team championship and the extra points are needed.

McIntosh also redshirted after his true freshman year. In terms of the credentials of recruits during the entire tenure of the current coaching regime, it seems roughly in line with the credentials of recruits during the prior regime. Should Pitt expect more? You clearly think so, and so do I. But I do have hope that the program will improve, that individual wrestlers will enjoy greater success, and that better days are ahead.

 

[Somerset Panther]

Looking at the head coach job at Pitt, who could we entice to come here. We see names like the coach that just went to NC st. and turned them into a winner, or the coach at VT. Would Jody Strittmatter that's asst coach at UPJ and wrestled two years there before going to Iowa be worthwhile looking at. I think he runs the Young Guns wrestling program which has had great success.

 

[Warriordan]

somerset I think he would be a solid hire

 

[mike412]

After seeing Barnes butcher the BB hiring, I have changed my mind. I don't trust him to hire a new wrestling coach. He has zero credibility now with Pitt fans. Thank goodness we hired Narduzzi before we hired him.

 

[CrazyPaco]

After seeing Barnes butcher the BB hiring, I have changed my mind. I don't trust him to hire a new wrestling coach. He has zero cr divinity now with Pitt fans. Thank goodness we hired Narduzzi before we hired him.

No doubt, anyone with any sense of Pitt history should have alarm bells going off.

He follows the most epic Pitt Olympic sports hire of all time with a basketball hire that is epic in a completely opposite way. Although I felt before that Vidovich fell into our lap, I'm really hoping Barnes is some sort of savant that knows something the rest of us don't.

 

[pittwrestlingfan]

No doubt, anyone with any sense of Pitt history should have alarm bells going off.

He follows the most epic Pitt Olympic sports hire of all time with a basketball hire that is epic in a completely opposite way. Although I felt before that Vidovich fell into our lap, I'm really hoping Barnes is some sort of savant that knows something the rest of us don't.

I'd be doing cartwheels, badly, if Pitt's wrestling team had a coach with an analagous pedigree as Stallings. But onto some good news, how about Bell, the Pitt recruit, giving Mark Hall a real match at the Pittsburgh Wrestling Classic, and actually getting a takedown?

 

[CrazyPaco]

I'd be doing cartwheels, badly, if Pitt's wrestling team had a coach with an analagous pedigree as Stallings. But onto some good news, how about Bell, the Pitt recruit, giving Mark Hall a real match at the Pittsburgh Wrestling Classic, and actually getting a takedown?

Do you mean you'd be doing cartwheels if, in 17 seasons, Pitt wrestling never finishing better than 2nd in the conference regular season, only had one conference championship, and finished in the national top 20 rankings, barely, only once?

Pitt wrestling already has done better than that in the last 17 years.

 

[thom67]

There is no comparison to basketball and wrestling. Making the NCAA tourney in basketball is comparable to finishing in the top ten in wrestling. Making the final 16 is comparable to finishing top 5 in wrestling. There are only 30 or 40 teams that take wrestling at all seriously. Pitt wrestling has been mediocre at best for the past 30 years or so. Pitt had one wrestler winning more than one match this year at the NCAA's this year! That is like our Bball team losing in the first round of the CBI

 

[CrazyPaco]

There is no comparison to basketball and wrestling. Making the NCAA tourney in basketball is comparable to finishing in the top ten in wrestling. Making the final 16 is comparable to finishing top 5 in wrestling. There are only 30 or 40 teams that take wrestling at all seriously. Pitt wrestling has been mediocre at best for the past 30 years or so. Pitt had one wrestler winning more than one match this year at the NCAA's this year! That is like our Bball team losing in the first round of the CBI

When did anyone mention anything about NCAA appearances? In the past 10 years, the median # of NCAA basketball tournament appearances for power conference schools was 5. Stallings achieved 6 at Vanderbilt during that stretch. Over the past 5 years the median was 2. Stallings had 2 including this year where he was undoubtedly the last at large in and got waxed in the First Four. He's had one win in the tournament in the last 5 years. That is the same as the median for Power conference schools. Regardless, he's right around average of the median for getting into and winning in the NCAA tournament for power conference schools. My expectations of Pitt's potential in wrestling is greater than the median or just above the median for post-season performance.

Stallings has a .493 winning percentage in 17 years of SEC play. That isn't a standard for doing cartwheels in any sport.

 

[pittwrestlingfan]

When did anyone mention anything about NCAA appearances? In the past 10 years, the median # of NCAA basketball tournament appearances for power conference schools was 5. Stallings achieved 6 at Vanderbilt during that stretch. Over the past 5 years the median was 2. Stallings had 2 including this year where he was undoubtedly the last at large in and got waxed in the First Four. He's had one win in the tournament in the last 5 years. That is the same as the median for Power conference schools. Regardless, he's right around average of the median for getting into and winning in the NCAA tournament for power conference schools. My expectations of Pitt's potential in wrestling is greater than the median or just above the median for post-season performance.

Stallings has a .493 winning percentage in 17 years of SEC play. That isn't a standard for doing cartwheels in any sport.

Good points. Cartwheels was perhaps a poor choice of words, in a misguided effort to inject a little gallows hyperbolic humor. The point was simply that the Pitt wrestling situation appears so dire, at the moment, that even a somewhat uninspiring choice like Stallings would be a positive. I do think Pitt wrestling fans should be encouraged by the fact that Pitt appears to have recruited some good wrestlers.

 

[thom67]

When did anyone mention anything about NCAA appearances? In the past 10 years, the median # of NCAA basketball tournament appearances for power conference schools was 5. Stallings achieved 6 at Vanderbilt during that stretch. Over the past 5 years the median was 2. Stallings had 2 including this year where he was undoubtedly the last at large in and got waxed in the First Four. He's had one win in the tournament in the last 5 years. That is the same as the median for Power conference schools. Regardless, he's right around average of the median for getting into and winning in the NCAA tournament for power conference schools. My expectations of Pitt's potential in wrestling is greater than the median or just above the median for post-season performance.

Stallings has a .493 winning percentage in 17 years of SEC play. That isn't a standard for doing cartwheels in any sport.

I was stating that the record for Vanderbilt basketball over the last 17 years is better than the record for Pitt wrestling over the same period of time and it's not real,close. At least they have been in the top 20 % of D 1 basketball teams on a regular basis. Pitt wrestling has barely made it in the top 50 % of true d1 wrestling teams.

 

[CrazyPaco]

I was stating that the record for Vanderbilt basketball over the last 17 years is better than the record for Pitt wrestling over the same period of time and it's not real,close. At least they have been in the top 20 % of D 1 basketball teams on a regular basis. Pitt wrestling has barely made it in the top 50 % of true d1 wrestling teams.

What are "true" D1 wrestling teams compared to "true" D1 basketball teams? Arbitrarily excluding data points is a major statistical bias, especially when done for one arm and not the other.

If you are going to throw out 50% or more of teams in D1 wrestling for not being "true", then there is no reason not to throw out 50% of basketball teams...which would mean being in the NCAA tournament represents being in approximately the top 40%.

And that is why I feel comparative performance to similarly situation and funded schools is better, and Stallings did just at or slightly better than the median for the postseason.

Regardless of esoteric statistical arguments, if Pitt hired a coach with an equivalent record to Stallings to replace Peters, everyone would be up in arms.

 

[thom67]

What are "true" D1 wrestling teams compared to "true" D1 basketball teams? Arbitrarily excluding data points is a major statistical bias, especially when done for one arm and not the other.

If you are going to throw out 50% or more of teams in D1 wrestling for not being "true", then there is no reason not to throw out 50% of basketball teams...which would mean being in the NCAA tournament represents being in approximately the top 40%.

And that is why I feel comparative performance to similarly situation and funded schools is better, and Stallings did just at or slightly better than the median for the postseason.

Regardless of esoteric statistical arguments, if Pitt hired a coach with an equivalent record to Stallings to replace Peters, everyone would be up in arms.

True d 1 teams are those that give out 9.9 scholies for wrestling. Those are the teams that care about wrestling at least somewhat. That number has dwindled over the years because of tittle 9 and costs for athletics. Look at the NCAA scoring and you will find only about 40 teams or so that care.

 

[CrazyPaco]

True d 1 teams are those that give out 9.9 scholies for wrestling. Those are the teams that care about wrestling at least somewhat. That number has dwindled over the years because of tittle 9 and costs for athletics. Look at the NCAA scoring and you will find only about 40 teams or so that care.

So then Pitt wasn't a true D1 wrestling team until 5 or 6 years ago.

What is a true D1 basketball program? I guess all 350 equally strive and put equivalent resources in place for deep NCAA tournament runs? All it takes to show true commitment is 13 scholarships?

The seasons and sports are set up completely differently. You simply can't cut over half the programs off of one and not the other in order to equate Stallings appearing in the postseason in 40% of his seasons to top 10 finishes at the NCAA wrestling championship. Again, he was right at the median of tournament appearances and wins for power conference schools (P5+BE+AAC). That could just as easily be equated to "serious" basketball schools, give or take a Gonzaga. What is the median NCAA finish for your 40 "serious" wrestling schools over the last ten years?...assuredly no better than 20th. Pitt's average finish the last 10 years was 24.6.

So you're telling me that you'd be satisfied if Pitt hired a replacement for Peters that spent over a decade and a half at a school in a mediocre to good, but never top, wrestling conference in which he had a cumulative sub-.500 conference record, never won the conference dual meet season, and averaged about 20th in its team finish at the NCAAs? That's barely better than Rande.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying no one would be satisfied with that hire and certainly no one would be ecstatic. I'd guess most would rather get an up-and-comer.

 

[pittwrestlingfan]

Reasonable minds can differ on how one extropolates the "success" of Stallings at Vandy to wrestling, as the debate demonstrates. What cannot be debated is that Pitt's wrestling program for decades has underperformed (despite some successes) in terms of what a knowledgable person would expect, that the past season was particularly unsatisfactory, that there are some troubling signs about the trend line, and that a very hard look at the state and future of the program is most certainly warranted.

 

[thom67]

I never complained that I would be happy with that coach. I only stated that it would be better than what we have had for the past 20 years. There are only 79 teams that wrestle D 1. Out of that only 40-50 even care about he sport at all. Finishing in top 25 of wrestling compares to finishing in top 100 in basketball. Vandy has done better than that consistantly. Pitt has no reason to not being a top 10 or better every year in wrestling.