Newkirk Will Have an Effect in a Number of Ways

[Chescat]

A lot of great recent posts about the new Bigs, Smith, and possible playing time. Jamie has his work cut out in finding if the three Bigs get playing time (how much), where, when, and in what combination. Compared to last year it's a good problem to have. None of this is known till he gets them on the floor in practice.

The 2g is probably somewhat set with Smith and Jones, perhaps Cam, and maybe Wilson.

PG appears set with Robinson...but what about Newkirk? Is he healthy enough to play? Even if he is, is he GOOD enough to play? Last year he regressed (and that's being nice). Let's say he reverts back to form and
shows us the improvement we expected last year. If that happens, we're set at back up PG. If not, we have a
a major problem, because Jones has no PG skills, Smith appears to be a shooter and a 2G. Wilson at PG
IMO is not what Jamie is thinking. Cam?...doubt it. All of this is pure speculation. My guess and hope is that
Newkirk is healthy and can give us 10 minutes at pg. Even better would be that he can get back to frosh form and even play some 2G if needed. If that were to occur, Cam could get looks at the 3, as could
Jones. I like Jones as a sub at either the 2 or the 3. Again, all speculation at this point, but one thing is
certain...Newkirk's status (both in health and production) is going to have an effect in a number of ways..

 

[rgross83]

A lot of great recent posts about the new Bigs, Smith, and possible playing time. Jamie has his work cut out in finding if the three Bigs get playing time (how much), where, when, and in what combination. Compared to last year it's a good problem to have. None of this is known till he gets them on the floor in practice.

The 2g is probably somewhat set with Smith and Jones, perhaps Cam, and maybe Wilson.

PG appears set with Robinson...but what about Newkirk? Is he healthy enough to play? Even if he is, is he GOOD enough to play? Last year he regressed (and that's being nice). Let's say he reverts back to form and
shows us the improvement we expected last year. If that happens, we're set at back up PG. If not, we have a
a major problem, because Jones has no PG skills, Smith appears to be a shooter and a 2G. Wilson at PG
IMO is not what Jamie is thinking. Cam?...doubt it. All of this is pure speculation. My guess and hope is that
Newkirk is healthy and can give us 10 minutes at pg. Even better would be that he can get back to frosh form and even play some 2G if needed. If that were to occur, Cam could get looks at the 3, as could
Jones. I like Jones as a sub at either the 2 or the 3. Again, all speculation at this point, but one thing is
certain...Newkirk's status (both in health and production) is going to have an effect in a number of ways..

I believe that given the bigs that we have next year, Artis will get significant time at the 3. If Jeter can figure out the defense and gain some consistency, I think he could be a serious contributor at the 3. That doesn't leave a lot of minutes for Jones or Cam there.

It will be interesting. Dixon has a lot to figure out over the summer and early fall. I do think the sum of these parts will be an improvement over last year, I'm just not sure how they will all fit together.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Dixon in the press release on Smith's signing indicated Smith would see some plat at PG--at least defensively.

 

[Harve74]

A lot of great recent posts about the new Bigs, Smith, and possible playing time. Jamie has his work cut out in finding if the three Bigs get playing time (how much), where, when, and in what combination. Compared to last year it's a good problem to have. None of this is known till he gets them on the floor in practice.

The 2g is probably somewhat set with Smith and Jones, perhaps Cam, and maybe Wilson.

PG appears set with Robinson...but what about Newkirk? Is he healthy enough to play? Even if he is, is he GOOD enough to play? Last year he regressed (and that's being nice). Let's say he reverts back to form and
shows us the improvement we expected last year. If that happens, we're set at back up PG. If not, we have a
a major problem, because Jones has no PG skills, Smith appears to be a shooter and a 2G. Wilson at PG
IMO is not what Jamie is thinking. Cam?...doubt it. All of this is pure speculation. My guess and hope is that
Newkirk is healthy and can give us 10 minutes at pg. Even better would be that he can get back to frosh form and even play some 2G if needed. If that were to occur, Cam could get looks at the 3, as could
Jones. I like Jones as a sub at either the 2 or the 3. Again, all speculation at this point, but one thing is
certain...Newkirk's status (both in health and production) is going to have an effect in a number of ways..

You make interesting points.

We theoretically have a number of guys who ARE guards, but in reality, we have only two ball-handlers . And, one of them is injured.

If Newkirk doesn't come back at 100%, we have real problems. Actually, the way he played last year, we may still have problems. We have a lot of bigger guys who really don't fit the current model of lead guards. Jones is as much a 3 as a 2. Smith is supposed to be mainly a spot up, catch and shoot guy. Cam Johnson is recovering from the shoulder surgery and at nearly 6-8, is mostly a perimeter shooter. Damon Wilson is supposed to have PG skills but is also 6-4 or 6-5 and not super-athletic.

If everyone is healthy and eligible, we have 6 guys, but we could also have only 3.

Even if the unlikely miracle happes and we land Rowan, he's another wing shooter, not a penetrator or ball handler at the ACC level.

You could say that Jamie has been recruiting to fit his "ideal team" as discussed a few years back of everybody 6-5 to 6-7 or so with basically interchangeable skill sets, but we did sign the 7-ft. Nix and we're recruiting several 6 ft or less PG's for the '16 class, Cassius Winston, CJ Walker, Charlie Moore, etc. (Although, we also have offered several big PG's too.)

As I said in another post, I remain puzzled we did not sign a 5th year transfer ball-handler. Another roster move before September would not surprise me at all. All scholarships become 4-year guaranteed August 1. There may yet be another round of "free agents" on the market this Summer. If Wilson doesn't pass the Clearinghouse or Josh isn't healing fast, I think we'll make a move to reinforce the backcourt.

 

[Jeffburgh]

You make interesting points.

We theoretically have a number of guys who ARE guards, but in reality, we have only two ball-handlers . And, one of them is injured.

If Newkirk doesn't come back at 100%, we have real problems. Actually, the way he played last year, we may still have problems. We have a lot of bigger guys who really don't fit the current model of lead guards. Jones is as much a 3 as a 2. Smith is supposed to be mainly a spot up, catch and shoot guy. Cam Johnson is recovering from the shoulder surgery and at nearly 6-8, is mostly a perimeter shooter. Damon Wilson is supposed to have PG skills but is also 6-4 or 6-5 and not super-athletic.

If everyone is healthy and eligible, we have 6 guys, but we could also have only 3.

Even if the unlikely miracle happes and we land Rowan, he's another wing shooter, not a penetrator or ball handler at the ACC level.

You could say that Jamie has been recruiting to fit his "ideal team" as discussed a few years back of everybody 6-5 to 6-7 or so with basically interchangeable skill sets, but we did sign the 7-ft. Nix and we're recruiting several 6 ft or less PG's for the '16 class, Cassius Winston, CJ Walker, Charlie Moore, etc. (Although, we also have offered several big PG's too.)

As I said in another post, I remain puzzled we did not sign a 5th year transfer ball-handler. Another roster move before September would not surprise me at all. All scholarships become 4-year guaranteed August 1. There may yet be another round of "free agents" on the market this Summer. If Wilson doesn't pass the Clearinghouse or Josh isn't healing fast, I think we'll make a move to reinforce the backcourt.

I was intrigued by Newkirk, but he was incredibly bad last year. Even without the injury I have no expectations that he would help this program in any meaningful way his last two years. He is a classic 1 1/2, not a strong enough shooter/scorer to be a 2G and just no PG DNA at all.

As noted, JD not bringing in any kind of PG, you have believe he thinks Wilson can provide 7-8 minutes as the backup PG this season and take over at PG the next year. But, JD has to, HAS to get a PG and SG to go with Maginault, and I mean starter capable guys.

 

[Chescat]

Well, the pg position is crucial to this team at this time....that's why I started this thread about Newkirk. If Robinson were to get hurt, we'd be cooked. Like the above posters said, it's surprising we didn't bring in another PG, if only for insurance. Regardless, we need a top level PG next year and for this year Robinson to stay healthy and for Newkirk to return to form.

 

[jimmoyer]

You make interesting points.

We theoretically have a number of guys who ARE guards, but in reality, we have only two ball-handlers . And, one of them is injured.

If Newkirk doesn't come back at 100%, we have real problems. Actually, the way he played last year, we may still have problems. We have a lot of bigger guys who really don't fit the current model of lead guards. Jones is as much a 3 as a 2. Smith is supposed to be mainly a spot up, catch and shoot guy. Cam Johnson is recovering from the shoulder surgery and at nearly 6-8, is mostly a perimeter shooter. Damon Wilson is supposed to have PG skills but is also 6-4 or 6-5 and not super-athletic.

If everyone is healthy and eligible, we have 6 guys, but we could also have only 3.

Even if the unlikely miracle happes and we land Rowan, he's another wing shooter, not a penetrator or ball handler at the ACC level.

You could say that Jamie has been recruiting to fit his "ideal team" as discussed a few years back of everybody 6-5 to 6-7 or so with basically interchangeable skill sets, but we did sign the 7-ft. Nix and we're recruiting several 6 ft or less PG's for the '16 class, Cassius Winston, CJ Walker, Charlie Moore, etc. (Although, we also have offered several big PG's too.)

As I said in another post, I remain puzzled we did not sign a 5th year transfer ball-handler. Another roster move before September would not surprise me at all. All scholarships become 4-year guaranteed August 1. There may yet be another round of "free agents" on the market this Summer. If Wilson doesn't pass the Clearinghouse or Josh isn't healing fast, I think we'll make a move to reinforce the backcourt.

Hey Harve,
What did you see as the real underlining issue with Josh last season? He certainly seems to have the quickness and athletic skills needed to play at this level, but seemed to really struggle with decision making. Many times he appeared "out of control" and as a result he would make poor decisions. If this is the case, is this something he can overcome over the course of a summer. Does a kid either have the Basketball IQ or not is the question and can this be taught or learned from one season to the next? Pitt really needs Josh to step up and play at an ACC level for this team to have success. What are you thoughts on whether you feel this is possible for Josh? Thanks

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Hey Harve,
What did you see as the real underlining issue with Josh last season? He certainly seems to have the quickness and athletic skills needed to play at this level, but seemed to really struggle with decision making. Many times he appeared "out of control" and as a result he would make poor decisions. If this is the case, is this something he can overcome over the course of a summer. Does a kid either have the Basketball IQ or not is the question and can this be taught or learned from one season to the next? Pitt really needs Josh to step up and play at an ACC level for this team to have success. What are you thoughts on whether you feel this is possible for Josh? Thanks

No one knows to what extent Newkirk's injury contributed to his playing deficirencies last year. It could have been close to 100% of the problem.

 

[NTOP]

No one knows to what extent Newkirk's injury contributed to his playing deficirencies last year. It could have been close to 100% of the problem.

Hey got hurt in a pickup game AFTER the season.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

He was lost out there and without the benifits of off season coaching due to his injury it's hard to expect improvement. A point guard is born not developed . If I was a coach playing Pitt I'd press and wear down JRob.

 

[Harve74]

Hey Harve,
What did you see as the real underlining issue with Josh last season? He certainly seems to have the quickness and athletic skills needed to play at this level, but seemed to really struggle with decision making. Many times he appeared "out of control" and as a result he would make poor decisions. If this is the case, is this something he can overcome over the course of a summer. Does a kid either have the Basketball IQ or not is the question and can this be taught or learned from one season to the next? Pitt really needs Josh to step up and play at an ACC level for this team to have success. What are you thoughts on whether you feel this is possible for Josh? Thanks

I have no good idea why Josh played so badly last year. He looked promising down the stretch the previous season, but was only ordinary last Summer in the ProAm and got worse as the season progressed. It may be that he is simply what he has shown, no more or no less. He is pretty quick but is a streak shooter and has not demonstrated that he can be a sure passer or floor general.

Other Panther players have found themselves in their 3rd or 4th year in the program. It could happen for Newkirk. But, he might have peaked at the level he has reached, a athletic guy who just is just missing something to make him capable of being an ACC lead guard but instead, is maybe more suited to be a back-up.

Josh has had surprising difficulty, considering hs quickness, in guarding basically anyone. He has, at times in the Summer league, shown signs of being able to drive and dish for easy shots, but against real defenders, the game has not slowed down for him. He may be tryng too hard. He looks in need of the old coaching mantra: "Be quick, but never be hurried."

Clearly, those calling for him to start ahead of JRob last Fall were wrong. At this point, just staying ahead of Damon Wilson looks problematic. Losing this Summer is a possible career killer for him. He hasn't shown enough and our backcourt is too shallow to redshirt him to get back to 100% physcally, and as you say, the problem doesn't seem to be physical.

I like his personality but there's just something lacking so far.

 

[Zaratoughda]

I have no good idea why Josh played so badly last year. He looked promising down the stretch the previous season, but was only ordinary last Summer in the ProAm and got worse as the season progressed. It may be that he is simply what he has shown, no more or no less. He is pretty quick but is a streak shooter and has not demonstrated that he can be a sure passer or floor general.

Other Panther players have found themselves in their 3rd or 4th year in the program. It could happen for Newkirk. But, he might have peaked at the level he has reached, a athletic guy who just is just missing something to make him capable of being an ACC lead guard but instead, is maybe more suited to be a back-up.

Josh has had surprising difficulty, considering hs quickness, in guarding basically anyone. He has, at times in the Summer league, shown signs of being able to drive and dish for easy shots, but against real defenders, the game has not slowed down for him. He may be tryng too hard. He looks in need of the old coaching mantra: "Be quick, but never be hurried."

Clearly, those calling for him to start ahead of JRob last Fall were wrong. At this point, just staying ahead of Damon Wilson looks problematic. Losing this Summer is a possible career killer for him. He hasn't shown enough and our backcourt is too shallow to redshirt him to get back to 100% physcally, and as you say, the problem doesn't seem to be physical.

I like his personality but there's just something lacking so far.

Harve... I must say I noticed that also... Newkirk not doing much in the pro-am. You never know if what you see in the pro-am is gonna have any significance but it was almost like a red flag going up.

One conclusion I came to... was just that he is not a hard worker. I remember Keith Benjamin pretty much being a disappointment his first three years but then worked his butt off over the summer before his senior year and, I could see it even before the Mike Cook injury, that KB had really gotten over the hump... and had a great senior year and had that nice feed to Ramon for that buzzer beater over WVU, and got to cut down the nets at MSG for the BET championship.

Yeah, one can only hope that Newkirk gets it re hard work but... it won't be happening this summer because he will be in rehab.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Harve... I must say I noticed that also... Newkirk not doing much in the pro-am. You never know if what you see in the pro-am is gonna have any significance but it was almost like a red flag going up.

See, this is the kind of thing that I was referring to in the other thread. You have the idea in your head that Newkirk didn't "do much" in the Pro-Am. In point of fact, Newkirk was the fourth leading scorer and second in assists in the Pro-Am. He made the all league team. I know you didn't actually see what he did in the Pro-Am, but how is that "not doing much"? Just what would he have needed to do for you to think it rose above "not much"

 

[Zaratoughda]

See, this is the kind of thing that I was referring to in the other thread. You have the idea in your head that Newkirk didn't "do much" in the Pro-Am. In point of fact, Newkirk was the fourth leading scorer and second in assists in the Pro-Am. He made the all league team. I know you didn't actually see what he did in the Pro-Am, but how is that "not doing much"? Just what would he have needed to do for you to think it rose above "not much"

Harve saw it and I saw it... maybe you have a link to back up what you are saying.

 

[KiwiJeff]

Harve saw it and I saw it... maybe you have a link to back up what you are saying.

I am not sure what the debate is exactly, but what did you and Harve see?

 

[Zaratoughda]

I am not sure what the debate is exactly, but what did you and Harve see?

Harve's comment... you can read his post... was that Newkirk was just 'ordinary' in the ProAm... and I agreed but used the phrase 'not doing much' (you can read my post also)... and Joe disagreed and posted a stat and so far has not backed that up with a link that others can see for themselves.

Yeah, thinking about this one a bit... my recollection was that, at least in the first couple of games, Newkirk was not scoring much at all... and I figured maybe he was trying to be more like James Robinson... more the playmaker... or maybe working on his defense. I think he picked it up as the league worn on but I don't recall him having any big scoring games or anything like that. In short, impressed me as 'not doing much'.

Yeah, I would like to see a link to prove or disprove what Joe is saying. If he is just going by his recollection, he should not be criticizing others for going by their's.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Zara, I don't have to look for a link to what people's numbers were at the Pro-Am. I can just open up the file on my computer here or open up the file at my desk and see for myself. Because the person who compiled the the season long game stats was, well, me. I don't have to look for a link to tell you that Newkirk finished fourth in the league in scoring or second in assists, because the person who compiled the league leader list was, well, me again.

So I don't need a link to tell you that the leading scorers in the league, in order, were Rene Castro, Lucky Jones, Karvell Anderson, Josh Newkirk and Mike Young. I don't need a link to tell you the top guys in assists were, again in order, Lance Jeter, Josh Newkirk, Rene Castro, Mike Young and Derrick Colter. I don't need a link to tell you that Newkirk shot 46.3% from the field, 26.8% on threes (there's your weakness right there), 80.8% from the line, 2.8 rebounds, 7.0 assists, 2.5 turnovers (too many) and 26.0 points per game. Because if you find somewhere out there where there is a link to those numbers, all they will be is a link to the numbers that originated on my laptop.

Now there used to be a link on the PBC web site that listed the all league team, but again, I don't need to look for it to tell you who made it. Mike Young was the player of the year. The all league team was Newkirk, Castro, Lance Jeter, Jones, Colter, Joe Uchebo and Anderson. The reason I don't need a link for that is well, let's just say that I had an in on the discussions for who should be player of the year and who should make the all league team and leave it at that.

Oh, yeah, one more thing. It was your recollection that Newkirk didn't score much at all in the first couple of games. And you don't recall him having any big scoring nights. Which is actually kind of funny, because in the first game of the Pro-Am season Newkirk scored 34 points.
In the third game he scored 31. In actuality, his worst game, by far, was the last "regular season" game, when he scored 19 points on an awful 8-30 from the field. In other words, what actually happened was pretty much exactly the opposite of what you remember happening. How odd.

Oh, again, no link needed for any of that, since I have all the individual box scores here too.

Oh, one more thing (and that's too many "one more thing"s for one post). Kiwi, the answer to the question as to what Zara saw is that he didn't actually see anything. Because as he has said before, he didn't actually go to any of the games. He knows what happened based on what he read from what the people who actually did go said. For the record, Harve was there every night. While I may not agree with all of Harve's comments on what happened, he was actually there and saw first hand what actually happened. I may not agree with him, but I respect his opinions.

 

[Zaratoughda]

Zara, I don't have to look for a link to what people's numbers were at the Pro-Am. I can just open up the file on my computer here or open up the file at my desk and see for myself. Because the person who compiled the the season long game stats was, well, me. I don't have to look for a link to tell you that Newkirk finished fourth in the league in scoring or second in assists, because the person who compiled the league leader list was, well, me again.

So I don't need a link to tell you that the leading scorers in the league, in order, were Rene Castro, Lucky Jones, Karvell Anderson, Josh Newkirk and Mike Young. I don't need a link to tell you the top guys in assists were, again in order, Lance Jeter, Josh Newkirk, Rene Castro, Mike Young and Derrick Colter. I don't need a link to tell you that Newkirk shot 46.3% from the field, 26.8% on threes (there's your weakness right there), 80.8% from the line, 2.8 rebounds, 7.0 assists, 2.5 turnovers (too many) and 26.0 points per game. Because if you find somewhere out there where there is a link to those numbers, all they will be is a link to the numbers that originated on my laptop.

Now there used to be a link on the PBC web site that listed the all league team, but again, I don't need to look for it to tell you who made it. Mike Young was the player of the year. The all league team was Newkirk, Castro, Lance Jeter, Jones, Colter, Joe Uchebo and Anderson. The reason I don't need a link for that is well, let's just say that I had an in on the discussions for who should be player of the year and who should make the all league team and leave it at that.

Oh, yeah, one more thing. It was your recollection that Newkirk didn't score much at all in the first couple of games. And you don't recall him having any big scoring nights. Which is actually kind of funny, because in the first game of the Pro-Am season Newkirk scored 34 points.
In the third game he scored 31. In actuality, his worst game, by far, was the last "regular season" game, when he scored 19 points on an awful 8-30 from the field. In other words, what actually happened was pretty much exactly the opposite of what you remember happening. How odd.

Oh, again, no link needed for any of that, since I have all the individual box scores here too.

Oh, one more thing (and that's too many "one more thing"s for one post). Kiwi, the answer to the question as to what Zara saw is that he didn't actually see anything. Because as he has said before, he didn't actually go to any of the games. He knows what happened based on what he read from what the people who actually did go said. For the record, Harve was there every night. While I may not agree with all of Harve's comments on what happened, he was actually there and saw first hand what actually happened. I may not agree with him, but I respect his opinions.

Hmmm... I can only wonder since you don't have a link.... if you got it all messed up.

In any case, if you know so much, why don't you explain Newkirk's MISERABLE season this past year. THAT we all saw and we all have the links to the box scores and stats.

 

[Harve74]

Harve's comment... you can read his post... was that Newkirk was just 'ordinary' in the ProAm... and I agreed but used the phrase 'not doing much' (you can read my post also)... and NTOP disagreed and posted a stat and so far has not backed that up with a link that others can see for themselves.

Yeah, thinking about this one a bit... my recollection was that, at least in the first couple of games, Newkirk was not scoring much at all... and I figured maybe he was trying to be more like James Robinson... more the playmaker... or maybe working on his defense. I think he picked it up as the league worn on but I don't recall him having any big scoring games or anything like that. In short, impressed me as 'not doing much'.

Yeah, I would like to see a link to prove or disprove what NTOP is saying. If he is just going by his recollection, he should not be criticizing others for going by their's.

Joe usually was a scorekeeper at the ProAm games. You on the other hand did not actually attend any of the games. You have previously stated you've never been to the Pro Am. When they were playing, Joe was courtside. You were a couple hundred miles away, apparently using some superatural vision to "see" the games.

Zara, this thread ranks right up there with the time you said a player "looked good" in a non-televised game that you "watched" only on Game-Tracker.

You make complicated assumptions from boxscores and from reports of those who did see the games. Frequently those assumptions have little to no basis in fact. That's OK. As the Moynihan quote goes, Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts. A lot of your assumptions come from "facts" you have spun out of incomplete or incorrect information.

I do think Newkirk was ordinary last Summer. He would not have been on an All ProAm team that I was voting for. But, I saw no drop off of physical skills or indication of lack of effort or conditioning. Or anything that would lead me to suspect for one second that there was any substance abuse problem as you implied in another post. He just didn't do anythjng special.

Newkirk has very good physical skills. I don't know if he has enough feel for the game and the confidence in himself and his teammates to take the next step and be more than he has been.

 

[Scruffy the Panther]

Zara, this thread ranks right up there with the time you said a player "looked good" in a non-televised game that you "watched" only on Game-Tracker.

Maybe he flew over the Pro-Am games in his flight simulator?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Newkirk has very good physical skills. I don't know if he has enough feel for the game and the confidence in himself and his teammates to take the next step and be more than he has been.

I think this is spot on. I have said to people before that Newkirk takes one dribble too many. If he beats his guy off the dribble he almost never settles for the open eight footer, he takes that extra dribble and goes after the post guy who is 6-8 inches taller than he is, and that just doesn't work out all that often. I said that to someone who will remain nameless but who has played basketball at a higher level than any of us here, indeed someone who has been paid to play basketball, and he said to me that he thought the exact same thing. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm right, but I am.

The issue last year became that he completely lost his confidence. When his drives to the basket weren't working he didn't have anything else to fall back on. As a freshman he shot threes pretty well, so even when the drives weren't working there was something else that was. Last season he wasn't scoring on drives and he wasn't shooting the ball well from the outside, so there was nothing for him to hang his hat on. I think we actually saw a little taste of that from him as a freshman with his foul shooting. There is no reason for him to be as bad on foul shots as he was as a freshman, but he started missing them and lost his confidence. He's not the first guy with a problem like that, and he won't be the last.

I also think that what Newkirk did well last summer was something that doesn't translate as well to "real" basketball. We've had this discussion before about what translates and what doesn't. Well someone (especially someone as small as Newkirk) who builds their game on beating guys off the dribble and getting to the rim is something that is less likely to translate. Because one, he will be going against better defenders in "real" games. Two, there is no real team defense concepts being played because of the nature of the league. Three, when a guy does get to the rim it is much less likely that there will be a good rim protector there to block his path. Newkirk shot threes poorly as the numbers show. What he did very well was beat guys off the dribble and get to the rim.
If he was beating guys off the dribble and then hitting a ton of 10-15 footers that would be a better sign than him beating guys off the dribble and getting all the way to the rim, in my opinion. Because that would be something that he might be able to do in "real" games.

 

[DT_PITT]

Hmmm... I can only wonder since you don't have a link.... if you got it all messed up.

In any case, if you know so much, why don't you explain Newkirk's MISERABLE season this past year. THAT we all saw and we all have the links to the box scores and stats.

Joe is 100% correct about Josh's Pro-Am performance in the summer.

His difficulties this past season can be completely attributed to confidence. It was very clear that he lost so much of the needed confidence to be successful.

Josh has enough tools to be a pretty good player. Certainly a better player than the one who struggled through the second half of this past season.

 

[DT_PITT]

I think this is spot on. I have said to people before that Newkirk takes one dribble too many. If he beats his guy off the dribble he almost never settles for the open eight footer, he takes that extra dribble and goes after the post guy who is 6-8 inches taller than he is, and that just doesn't work out all that often. I said that to someone who will remain nameless but who has played basketball at a higher level than any of us here, indeed someone who has been paid to play basketball, and he said to me that he thought the exact same thing. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm right, but I am.

The issue last year became that he completely lost his confidence. When his drives to the basket weren't working he didn't have anything else to fall back on. As a freshman he shot threes pretty well, so even when the drives weren't working there was something else that was. Last season he wasn't scoring on drives and he wasn't shooting the ball well from the outside, so there was nothing for him to hang his hat on. I think we actually saw a little taste of that from him as a freshman with his foul shooting. There is no reason for him to be as bad on foul shots as he was as a freshman, but he started missing them and lost his confidence. He's not the first guy with a problem like that, and he won't be the last.

I also think that what Newkirk did well last summer was something that doesn't translate as well to "real" basketball. We've had this discussion before about what translates and what doesn't. Well someone (especially someone as small as Newkirk) who builds their game on beating guys off the dribble and getting to the rim is something that is less likely to translate. Because one, he will be going against better defenders in "real" games. Two, there is no real team defense concepts being played because of the nature of the league. Three, when a guy does get to the rim it is much less likely that there will be a good rim protector there to block his path. Newkirk shot threes poorly as the numbers show. What he did very well was beat guys off the dribble and get to the rim.
If he was beating guys off the dribble and then hitting a ton of 10-15 footers that would be a better sign than him beating guys off the dribble and getting all the way to the rim, in my opinion. Because that would be something that he might be able to do in "real" games.

When Josh was a freshman, we was often playing the two spot and his three point shooting made him look like a pretty good player. With that, he was getting shots off the playmaking of Lamar and James. As a credit to him, he made his shots count.

But as a playmaker himself this past year, he was really pressing at times, and this led to mistakes.

Josh has skills to be a pretty decent player. We'll have to see if he can use these to his advantage this year better than last.

 

[Zaratoughda]

Harve... to quote from your last post...

"You make complicated assumptions from boxscores and from reports of those who did see the games. Frequently those assumptions have little to no basis in fact. That's OK. As the Moynihan quote goes, Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts. A lot of your assumptions come from "facts" you have spun out of incomplete or incorrect information."

I do not deny this... but what I will say is that those that have access to more FACTS... oftentimes are not able to come up with anything better than I come up with.

Moreover... if people were not pushing the envelope, they would never be wrong but never have anything of significance to say. So, people that do push the envelope are gonna be wrong at times... and for sure that happens to me as well as others that are pushing the envelope.

But, the thing is, there are posters on this board that respond to this by INSULTING the OP, and with that, the OP insults back, etc, etc. This happens to me as well as a lot of other posters on this board. I see many threads that go on and on along these lines that I am not at all involved in.

You do not do this, and DT does not do it either. There is a big difference between disagreeing with a poster and insulting that poster.

Of course, although I may have been wrong with some of the facts on this case, I do not feel I was wrong on the bottom line. Having not attended the games, I never said anything but when you posted I responded to try to get a better feel for my perceptions. But then things degenerated after that not at all your fault.

But, big deal. There have always been question marks of whatever happens in the pro-am, and with the WVU players no longer participating, it's significance is gonna be that much less, if that is possible.

 

[Zaratoughda]

Joe is 100% correct about Josh's Pro-Am performance in the summer.

His difficulties this past season can be completely attributed to confidence. It was very clear that he lost so much of the needed confidence to be successful.

Josh has enough tools to be a pretty good player. Certainly a better player than the one who struggled through the second half of this past season.

DT... I beg to disagree.

I think Newkirk's problems came from having gotten OVER confident... maybe even a bit cocky... to the point where he was not working hard at the things that got him the consistent progress he had seen in his freshman year, and things started going downhill from that point and continued going downhill throughout his sophomore year. With that, yeah, he lost his confidence and I remember seeing him with his head down out there. But, that was not what started the downturn.

I of course cannot attend the pro-am games, and I gleaned what I stated previously from people's comments and the box scores. It was if, with Newkirk, we SHOULD have been seeing some progress but it just wasn't there. Didn't think much of it until what happened this past season and then, the comment along these lines from Harve.

Also, I didn't see any change in Newkirk's role between his freshman and sophomore years. The only thing is Dixon started using him only when he HAD to, because his play had deteriorated so much, and that meant usually just spelling Robinson. Even sat him in favor of Lecak at SG late in the season.

I of course feel for Josh and hope the best for him. But, the bottom line here is Gary McGhee had a downturn his sophomore year but worked his butt off that summer and really turned things around. With Josh, and his operation, he is not gonna have that chance. Also, usually takes a while after you can play again to get your game up to speed.

So, what I am expecting from Newkirk is a very pedestrian year. In other words, if he can bring the ball down the court and not make bad plays, then he will still be worth getting playing time. If he is lucky he will get back to doing the things the way he did his freshmen year and thus get his career back on track.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Newkirk's "problem" is that he is neither a PG or a SG. He "lacks confidence" because he does not have a spot to play naturally.

He isn't a strong enough scorer or shooter to be a SG, but simply does not have the innate feel to be a PG.

BK had some real ups and downs, and was not particularly impressive his sophomore year before his breakout junior year.

BUT, he clearly was a PG.

Newkirk looks nothing like a PG, just dribbles the clock out and tries to drive.

I will throw Zara one bone, the hope I hold out for him is to have that late senior year burst like Benjamin did.

Yeah, the program has seen a lot of kids make big gains their third season, but I don't remember a guy making that kind of leap after looking as bad as he looked his sophomore year.

 

[Zaratoughda]

Newkirk's "problem" is that he is neither a PG or a SG. He "lacks confidence" because he does not have a spot to play naturally.

He isn't a strong enough scorer or shooter to be a SG, but simply does not have the innate feel to be a PG.

BK had some real ups and downs, and was not particularly impressive his sophomore year before his breakout junior year.

BUT, he clearly was a PG.

Newkirk looks nothing like a PG, just dribbles the clock out and tries to drive.

I will throw Zara one bone, the hope I hold out for him is to have that late senior year burst like Benjamin did.

Yeah, the program has seen a lot of kids make big gains their third season, but I don't remember a guy making that kind of leap after looking as bad as he looked his sophomore year.

Newkirk looked good his freshman year... and seemed to be progressing every game. Late in the season Dixon was going with Robinson, Newkirk, Wright, Patterson and Zanna down the stretch. In other words, Newkirk had passed out MY and all the others in his class on the depth chart. This was playing both PG and SG.

But, I think the thing is, he was playing like 'make a good play if you can but have NOT MAKING BAD PLAYS YOUR FIRST PRIORITY'... and I think he got away from this going into his sophomore year and things spiraled downward.

GARY.... had a bad sophomore year but then completely turned things around. Yeah, he made the leap after looking pretty horrible (3 fouls in 6 seconds). With Newkirk, IMO he has got to get back on track before the end of this coming year or things will be looking pretty bleak.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Newkirks best games as a frosh were as an undersized 2, with jrob at the point... And that's was only because his shot was falling. He still couldn't defend .

Chris jones was a much better two than josh last year, and josh struggled being at the point to be kind.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I do not deny this... but what I will say is that those that have access to more FACTS... oftentimes are not able to come up with anything better than I come up with.

Yeah, they do. The fact that you don't recognize that doesn't make it any less so.

I'll make you the same promise that I made someone else here when this came up before. If you stop posting incorrect stuff then I'll stop pointing out that you posted something that was incorrect.

And I don't mean your opinions on things. As Harve said, everyone is entitled to their opinion even if it might be wrong. I think that your opinion that there is no way that Jamie Dixon is going to play Jamel Artis at the three is clearly wrong, given the current construction of the roster. I think it's obvious that the plan is going to be to have Artis get at least some time at the three. But I've never responded to your posts on that at all, because you are entitled to the opinion that Artis isn't going to play the three. Only time will tell if you end up being correct or not.

But on the other hand, when you say something like Newkirk wasn't scoring much at all in the Pro-Am, that is simply factually incorrect. When you claim that the guy who ended up fourth in the league in scoring and second in the league in assists "wasn't doing much" then you are simply factually incorrect. When you claim that Ty Haughton played in both of the exhibition games last season you are simply factually incorrect. And when someone tells you the actual facts, you don't say something like "gee, I got that all wrong, maybe I should reconsider the opinions I've come to based on my erroneous knowledge" you say that you don't believe the facts. That's the reason why so many of your opinions are so outlandish and so rarely come true, because you so often build your opinion on "facts" that aren't actually true.

If you continue to post things that are factually incorrect I will continue to point out that you did it. If you want me to stop, quit posting things that aren't true as if they are.

 

[DT_PITT]

GARY.... had a bad sophomore year but then completely turned things around. Yeah, he made the leap after looking pretty horrible (3 fouls in 6 seconds).

Actually it was three fouls in one second.

 

[Zaratoughda]

Actually it was three fouls in one second.

Actually it was three fouls in ZERO seconds... no time going off the clock.

He came in and was in for 6 seconds, 8 seconds or whatever and committed a foul. Then he committed two more fouls on the inbounds play before the ball came in.

So, whether it is 0 seconds or whatever.... all depends on how you want to look at it.

No?

 

[Jeffburgh]

Newkirk looked good his freshman year... and seemed to be progressing every game. Late in the season Dixon was going with Robinson, Newkirk, Wright, Patterson and Zanna down the stretch. In other words, Newkirk had passed out MY and all the others in his class on the depth chart. This was playing both PG and SG.

But, I think the thing is, he was playing like 'make a good play if you can but have NOT MAKING BAD PLAYS YOUR FIRST PRIORITY'... and I think he got away from this going into his sophomore year and things spiraled downward.

GARY.... had a bad sophomore year but then completely turned things around. Yeah, he made the leap after looking pretty horrible (3 fouls in 6 seconds). With Newkirk, IMO he has got to get back on track before the end of this coming year or things will be looking pretty bleak.

OK, I will give you McGhee as a guy who looked pdb his sophomore year and became a solid guy his junior year.

There is a difference, McGhee was a center. He was a little more mobile and did well on the pick and roll, but end of the day, he was just a strong arse guy who played tough. Newkirks issue is the skill end - the skill of being a point guard.

I thought he showed promise as a frosh, but there really is no excuse for last year. He just fell apart as the season went on.

 

[Zaratoughda]

Newkirks best games as a frosh were as an undersized 2, with jrob at the point... And that's was only because his shot was falling. He still couldn't defend .

Chris jones was a much better two than josh last year, and josh struggled being at the point to be kind.

Souf... I will say one thing re Newkirk and last year... At the end of the season, Dixon was getting so desperate re poor hedging and penetrating, he was putting Newkirk out there with no hedging support, having Josh go IN FRONT OF the screens all the time... and Newkirk... was getting NAILED out there.... I remember one time where he got nailed so bad you were glad he was just able to get up off the floor.

So, in this case Dixon was using Newkirk for his DEFENSE... and he is a lot quicker than what we had with Robinson and Wright.

So, he definitely has potential in that area.

 

[Zaratoughda]

OK, I will give you McGhee as a guy who looked pdb his sophomore year and became a solid guy his junior year.

There is a difference, McGhee was a center. He was a little more mobile and did well on the pick and roll, but end of the day, he was just a strong arse guy who played tough. Newkirks issue is the skill end - the skill of being a point guard.

I thought he showed promise as a frosh, but there really is no excuse for last year. He just fell apart as the season went on.

Newkirk's issue last year was trying too many times to make plays that simply were not there. Out of control and he kept turning the ball over. Also, was just 377/301 (2balls/3balls) for the year where the previous year he was 463/434, and to me that is more 'out of control'.

I agree though that his problem is mental not physical... but I believe Gary's problem was more mental than physical as well. It just really helped with Gary getting in great physical shape and he was able to make the GLF.

Yeah, maybe the problem with Newkirk was he was looking SO GOOD at the end of his freshman year (Gary was just 'OK' his freshman year) and that caused him to get over-confident and he lost what got him to where he got and things went downhill fast.

Only time will tell if he gets back on track.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Souf... I will say one thing re Newkirk and last year... At the end of the season, Dixon was getting so desperate re poor hedging and penetrating, he was putting Newkirk out there with no hedging support, having Josh go IN FRONT OF the screens all the time... and Newkirk... was getting NAILED out there.... I remember one time where he got nailed so bad you were glad he was just able to get up off the floor.

So, in this case Dixon was using Newkirk for his DEFENSE... and he is a lot quicker than what we had with Robinson and Wright.

So, he definitely has potential in that area.

I'll just say simply, you're drawing the wrong conclusions, in my opinion..again.

 

[Zaratoughda]

I'll just say simply, you're drawing the wrong conclusions, in my opinion..again.

So, I guess what you are saying, is Newkirk doesn't have any potential on the defensive end.

No?

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

So, I guess what you are saying, is Newkirk doesn't have any potential on the defensive end.

No?

He hasn't shown it so far.

At the very least he's athletic...but, he hasn't shown the ability to use that to stay in front as a defender.

 

[DT_PITT]

He hasn't shown it so far.

At the very least he's athletic...but, he hasn't shown the ability to use that to stay in front of a defender.

I find it extraordinarily perplexing that Josh has such difficulty staying in front of someone on defense.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I find it extraordinarily perplexing that Josh has such difficulty staying in front of someone on defense.

Agreed

 

[Harve74]

I find it extraordinarily perplexing that Josh has such difficulty staying in front of someone on defense.

Sometimes I wonder if Josh is trying to be TOO quick on defense and is over-reacting to every little twitch from an opponent, taking himself out of position. There are very few explanationsfr smeoe so quick beng so bad defensively.

I personally was exactly the opposite. I was so slow reacting that if an opponent pump-faked, I often blocked his shot because I was still reacting to the fake when he did shoot.