OCC

[gary2]

there is no question that Capels recruits are better and especially more athletic than Stallings recruits. I am also extremely happy that we get after people on defense.

My question requires some speculation.

What do you think Pitts OC record would be at this point had Stallings been retained and kept all of his players and recruits and maybe added a similar one or two?

 

[mbrannagan]

I think that if Carr, Stewart AND Luther were all on the team, they would have a similar record, maybe a loss more. What we wouldn't have though is enthusiasm, or a real sense of building blocks. The added year of experience for Carr and Stewart would make them valuable and having Luther as a presence would be very helpful, but I don't think we would have the defensive tenacity or explosiveness.

I will take this current squad by a mile in conference play though, where the athleticism they bring will be very necessary.

 

[gary2]

I think that if Carr, Stewart AND Luther were all on the team, they would have a similar record, maybe a loss more. What we wouldn't have though is enthusiasm, or a real sense of building blocks. The added year of experience for Carr and Stewart would make them valuable and having Luther as a presence would be very helpful, but I don't think we would have the defensive tenacity or explosiveness.

I will take this current squad by a mile in conference play though, where the athleticism they bring will be very necessary.

Agree - My guess would be identical OC record.

 

[Pittnerski]

Luther was never coming back even if stallings was coach.

So we would have lost to SLU, and maybe Duquesne. Then 10+ @ Iowa and 20+ @ wvu.

 

[pittzap]

Agree - My guess would be identical OC record.

I disagree. I think X is so valuable to this team for being able to get to the rim, that he has helped us win games we would not have won with Carr as PG. We don't have the scoring droughts we have had the passed two seasons because X, and a few others, can get to the rim to end the droughts. During the last two seasons we tried to three point shoot our way out of the drought, but it wound up making a close game into a double digit deficit.

I think we have a worse record.

 

[gary2]

I disagree. I think X is so valuable to this team for being able to get to the rim, that he has helped us win games we would not have won with Carr as PG. We don't have the scoring droughts we have had the passed two seasons because X, and a few others, can get to the rim to end the droughts. During the last two seasons we tried to three point shoot our way out of the drought, but it wound up making a close game into a double digit deficit.

I think we have a worse record.

Where do you see the losses?

 

[H2P 2003]

Where do you see the losses?

Duquesne and St Louis.

 

[Seneca_Valley]

Agree - My guess would be identical OC record.

Agreed. No more than three losses.

 

[joeydavid]

Like a 10 year old's time at a Penn State football camp, last season must now be a repressed memory in your mind...

Agree - My guess would be identical OC record.

 

[gary2]

Like a 10 year old's time at a Penn State football camp, last season must now be a repressed memory in your mind...

My point is that we played an extremely weak OC and we played it in the order you would want to play it in a transition year.

Things look much better but that has not translated into a better OC record than expected this year or recruiting success in the early signing period.

 

[H2P 2003]

Agreed. No more than three losses.

They would have lost to St. Louis, Iowa, and wvu in all likelyhood. How you can say there would be no more than three losses is beyond me.

We will never know for sure, but I think it is pretty obvious that Johnson, toney, and Mcgowens are better than anyone that was pushed out. Replacing those guys with Carr and Stewart, Stevenson and Davis playing more, and whatever recruits stallings brought in screams of being a far worse team.

We already have seen davis’ minutes cut and Stevenson transfer because others in the roster are so much better than them and they don’t fit his JC’s system.

The team could easily have lost 5 OOC games if stallings was back. There would also be the black hole of despair as well knowing the team had zero upside.

 

[H2P 2003]

My point is that we played an extremely weak OC and we played it in the order you would want to play it in a transition year.

Things look much better but that has not translated into a better OC record than expected this year or recruiting success in the early signing period.

Oh man.

We are two layups from being 11-1. There was one woops game in niagra, which is to be expected. We nearly went on the road and beat a decent big ten team. The WVU game was not great. They beat St. Louis, which is better than ANY win they had all last year.

Is this another”stallings wasn’t that bad post.” The fact that basically all of stallings’ players either have significantly reduced minutes or are transferring speaks loads to the quality of players he got him. Stevenson was maybe the third best player on the team last year...and this year he was buried...that tells you all you need to know.

 

[gary2]

Oh man.

We are two layups from being 11-1. There was one woops game in niagra, which is to be expected. We nearly went on the road and beat a decent big ten team. The WVU game was not great. They beat St. Louis, which is better than ANY win they had all last year.

Is this another”stallings wasn’t that bad post.” The fact that basically all of stallings’ players either have significantly reduced minutes or are transferring speaks loads to the quality of players he got him. Stevenson was maybe the third best player on the team last year...and this year he was buried...that tells you all you need to know.

The record is the record. If you want to play the what if game - what if St.Louis best player played the whole game and not a half?

In no way am I saying we would be better off with Stallings or Stallings players. I am saying the record would have been the same and the recruiting could not have been worse ( zero early signings)

I expect things will soon get better, but that is where we are right now.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

It's not so much the wins and losses when comparing Capel to what might have happened with Stallings. It's HOW we win with Capel vs. Stallings. Or more accurately, how we win with Capel vs. how we lost with Stallings. Even in the losses we've had this year, we've been competitive. Stallings would have taken the wins we had this year and made them closer, albeit some of them would be wins. And we wouldn't have been competitive at all against Iowa, STL, Duquesne or WVU with Stallings. PLUS, we have much better players with Capel, player to player, than we did with Stallings. None of Stewart, Carr or Luther are at the level of quality of XJ, Trey or N'Dir. Add to that the fact that this year, we have players who can play defense and last year we didn't have the players to play it or the coach to coach it, and that means at least 3 more wins with this group and with Capel compared to Stallings.

We'll see what happens against Colgate. That should be a good game. Then we get into playing the big boys, which will tell us much more a bout this team. But I have a feeling that even when we lose, we'll keep it close and we'll be competitive. Because we know how to play defense and play transition basketball.

 

[H2P 2003]

The record is the record. If you want to play the what if game - what if St.Louis best player played the whole game and not a half?

In no way am I saying we would be better off with Stallings or Stallings players. I am saying the record would have been the same and the recruiting could not have been worse ( zero early signings)

I expect things will soon get better, but that is where we are right now.

What is the point of the thread then? That stallings in year three would have had the same OOC schedule as JC in year one? That on and of itself is a huge indictment of stallings. Shouldn’t things have progressed by this point?

JC is starting from the ground up. Toney, trey, and Johnson are already more exciting that anything stallings brought in.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Thanks for adding Toney in there as well. A HUGE upgrade over what we had last year, even with Stallings' best players.

 

[NTOP]

there is no question that Capels recruits are better and especially more athletic than Stallings recruits. I am also extremely happy that we get after people on defense.

My question requires some speculation.

What do you think Pitts OC record would be at this point had Stallings been retained and kept all of his players and recruits and maybe added a similar one or two?

4-8

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

The record is the record. If you want to play the what if game - what if St.Louis best player played the whole game and not a half?

In no way am I saying we would be better off with Stallings or Stallings players. I am saying the record would have been the same and the recruiting could not have been worse ( zero early signings)

I expect things will soon get better, but that is where we are right now.

IMHO, with Stallings and his players we would still have lost to Niagara or one of the equivalent weaker teams plus we would lose to St. Louis for certain and maybe to Duquense and likely to Colgate. Losing to Iowa and West Virginia is a given. So I would say a minimum of 2 more losses for an 8-5 record is what we would have seen. And possibly a repeat of 8-24 after the ACC schedule.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

It's as if some people don't remember how bad last year was. We lost to a bad Navy team. We beat a bad High Point team by 8 in a game we were losing mid-way through the second half. We needed overtime to beat a bad Mount St. Mary's team, in a game we were losing late in the second half. We beat a Delaware State team that was one of, if not the worst team in all of D1 by 6 in what was a one possession game late in the second. We needed a late push to overcome a Towson team that ended up under .500 in the CAA for a 4 point win, a game that we trailed most of the game in.

There is no team on this year's schedule, no matter how bad they look, that last year's team couldn't have found a way to lose to. Would they have lost them all? No, of course not. But to think that last year's team was so good that they couldn't have lost to St. Louis or Duquesne or Troy or just about anyone else is to ignore just how pathetic last year's team was.

It's really, really hard to go 0-19 in conference. It takes a rare blend of poor play combined with awful coaching. Teams like that lose games to bad teams all the time. There is almost no way that last season's team is 9-3 against this schedule. If they were it probably would have involved a couple forfeits.

 

[gary2]

It's as if some people don't remember how bad last year was. We lost to a bad Navy team. We beat a bad High Point team by 8 in a game we were losing mid-way through the second half. We needed overtime to beat a bad Mount St. Mary's team, in a game we were losing late in the second half. We beat a Delaware State team that was one of, if not the worst team in all of D1 by 6 in what was a one possession game late in the second. We needed a late push to overcome a Towson team that ended up under .500 in the CAA for a 4 point win, a game that we trailed most of the game in.

There is no team on this year's schedule, no matter how bad they look, that last year's team couldn't have found a way to lose to. Would they have lost them all? No, of course not. But to think that last year's team was so good that they couldn't have lost to St. Louis or Duquesne or Troy or just about anyone else is to ignore just how pathetic last year's team was.

It's really, really hard to go 0-19 in conference. It takes a rare blend of poor play combined with awful coaching. Teams like that lose games to bad teams all the time. There is almost no way that last season's team is 9-3 against this schedule. If they were it probably would have involved a couple forfeits.

I don't believe I had last years team playing this years OC. I believe I had what could have been this years team ( Ellison plus a years experience) playing this years OC.

You think this years OC is as difficult as last seasons? What was last years OC record? With a years experience plus addition would it likely have been improved upon playing this OC?

 

[H2P 2003]

I don't believe I had last years team playing this years OC. I believe I had what could have been this years team ( Ellison plus a years experience) playing this years OC.

You think this years OC is as difficult as last seasons. What was last years OC record? With a years experience plus addition would it likely have been improved upon playing this OC?

No. The reason pitt is improved this year is because if the additions Capel has made. If we were going with a lineup of kene, Ellison, Wilson frame, Stevenson, and Carr, the team would be much worse this year and could easily lose 4-6 OOC games.

Again, are you trying to say that stallings had things improving? Are you saying that the program would be further along if stallings was still here?
What exactly is your point?

Also, I’d say the OOC schedule is similar.

 

[levance2]

I don't believe I had last years team playing this years OC. I believe I had what could have been this years team ( Ellison plus a years experience) playing this years OC.

You think this years OC is as difficult as last seasons. What was last years OC record? With a years experience plus addition would it likely have been improved upon playing this OC?

Stallings is responsible for the large majority of this OOC slate. I believe SLU was one of the few exceptions that Capel lined up. Stallings had to arrange one of Pitt's all-time worst schedules because of how bad his program was. That's the indictment.

If we had scheduled Delaware State 13 times and Year 3 Stallings had gone 13-0, what difference does that make? Next year's schedule under Capel will be much tougher, although still not top-tier, and those results are on Capel.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I don't believe I had last years team playing this years OC. I believe I had what could have been this years team ( Ellison plus a years experience) playing this years OC.

You think this years OC is as difficult as last seasons. What was last years OC record? With a years experience plus addition would it likely have been improved upon playing this OC?

He's gone gary. Get over it.

 

[gary2]

He's gone gary. Get over it.

I am not talking about Stallings. Capel brought in three fine freshmen. They are better and more athletic than any recruits we have secured in recent years. I am happy we are playing a more aggressive defense than recent years. We are more fun to watch. All this is to the good.

Capel did not bring in a decent big last spring. In my opinion the OC record is no better than what it would have been without the above, the results of the early signing period are no better than they would have been without the above. That is to the bad.

That is a realistic assessment of where we are out. I have full confidence that Capel will move us forward, but I am not blinded by what we have done against an extremely weak schedule and I noticed that successful recruiting has stalled after a very impressive early start. Maybe the plan was always to go after more reclassifications? I just don't know.

 

[H2P 2003]

I am not talking about Stallings. Capel brought in three fine freshmen. They are better and more athletic than any recruits we have secured in recent years. I am happy we are playing a more aggressive defense than recent years. We are more fun to watch. All this is to the good.

Capel did not bring in a decent big last spring. In my opinion the OC record is no better than what it would have been without the above, the results of the early signing period are no better than they would have been without the above. That is to the bad.

That is a realistic assessment of where we are out. I have full confidence that Capel will move us forward, but I am not blinded by what we have done against an extremely weak schedule.

You have to be kidding me....just major lolz.

Why don’t you go follow stallings and cheer on whatever he is doing?

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

H2P. You are correct. Stallings wouldn't have won more than 8 OOC once again vs this year's schedule. Furthermore, he would be making another run at 0-19 ACC this year with over 20 losses overall guaranteed by season's end.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

It's as if some people don't remember how bad last year was. We lost to a bad Navy team. We beat a bad High Point team by 8 in a game we were losing mid-way through the second half. We needed overtime to beat a bad Mount St. Mary's team, in a game we were losing late in the second half. We beat a Delaware State team that was one of, if not the worst team in all of D1 by 6 in what was a one possession game late in the second. We needed a late push to overcome a Towson team that ended up under .500 in the CAA for a 4 point win, a game that we trailed most of the game in.

There is no team on this year's schedule, no matter how bad they look, that last year's team couldn't have found a way to lose to. Would they have lost them all? No, of course not. But to think that last year's team was so good that they couldn't have lost to St. Louis or Duquesne or Troy or just about anyone else is to ignore just how pathetic last year's team was.

It's really, really hard to go 0-19 in conference. It takes a rare blend of poor play combined with awful coaching. Teams like that lose games to bad teams all the time. There is almost no way that last season's team is 9-3 against this schedule. If they were it probably would have involved a couple forfeits.

Yep

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I am not talking about Stallings. Capel brought in three fine freshmen. They are better and more athletic than any recruits we have secured in recent years. I am happy we are playing a more aggressive defense than recent years. We are more fun to watch. All this is to the good.

Capel did not bring in a decent big last spring. In my opinion the OC record is no better than what it would have been without the above, the results of the early signing period are no better than they would have been without the above. That is to the bad.

That is a realistic assessment of where we are out. I have full confidence that Capel will move us forward, but I am not blinded by what we have done against an extremely weak schedule and I noticed that successful recruiting has stalled after a very impressive early start. Maybe the plan was always to go after more reclassifications? I just don't know.

You are free to have your wrong opinion

 

[Ski11585]

The record is the record. If you want to play the what if game - what if St.Louis best player played the whole game and not a half?

In no way am I saying we would be better off with Stallings or Stallings players. I am saying the record would have been the same and the recruiting could not have been worse ( zero early signings)

I expect things will soon get better, but that is where we are right now.

Recruiting would have been worse because Stallings would not have brought in three players as talented as Pitt’s current freshmen.

 

[gary2]

Recruiting would have been worse because Stallings would not have brought in three players as talented as Pitt’s current freshmen.

You like other people in this thread have either misread what I posted or selectively read the posts.

The three freshmen recruits are great. The changes to style of play are great. I expect we will continue to add great players.

Now the bring us down to where we currently sit: Capel failed to bring in a big last spring. We have not exceeded OC record expectations. We landed zero recruits in the early signing period.

Realistic assessment or not?

 

[H2P 2003]

You like other people in this thread have either misread what I posted or selectively read the posts.

The three freshmen recruits are great. The changes to style of play are great. I expect we will continue to add great players.

Now the bring us down to where we currently sit: Capel failed to bring in a big last spring. We have not exceeded OC expectations. We landed zero recruits in the early signing period.

Realistic assessment or not?

Stallings was great! We’d be 30-0 right now with him!

As far as expectations, imo we have FAR exceeded what I had hoped for at this point.

 

[Chescat]

It's as if some people don't remember how bad last year was. We lost to a bad Navy team. We beat a bad High Point team by 8 in a game we were losing mid-way through the second half. We needed overtime to beat a bad Mount St. Mary's team, in a game we were losing late in the second half. We beat a Delaware State team that was one of, if not the worst team in all of D1 by 6 in what was a one possession game late in the second. We needed a late push to overcome a Towson team that ended up under .500 in the CAA for a 4 point win, a game that we trailed most of the game in.

There is no team on this year's schedule, no matter how bad they look, that last year's team couldn't have found a way to lose to. Would they have lost them all? No, of course not. But to think that last year's team was so good that they couldn't have lost to St. Louis or Duquesne or Troy or just about anyone else is to ignore just how pathetic last year's team was.

It's really, really hard to go 0-19 in conference. It takes a rare blend of poor play combined with awful coaching. Teams like that lose games to bad teams all the time. There is almost no way that last season's team is 9-3 against this schedule. If they were it probably would have involved a couple forfeits.

Joe absolutely explained this very well IMO. Is there anyone in their
right mind who believes that last year's team could win games on this year's
schedule by 42 pts (New Orleans); 35 pts (Md East Sh.); 39 pts. (VMI);
also a few other 20+ pt. wins, and some other double digit wins.
Intangibles that are crucial to a teams success; i.e. energy, intensity,
improving players output (Chuka), team chemistry, etc. etc. are way
beyond what was in place with last year's crew. Last year or this year,
makes no difference in my mind.....those players under Stallings would not
even be close to performing the way this year's team performs under Capel.

Gary, as far as answering your question about wins and losses......IMO
they'd have a worse record compared to this year's team. I feel they'd
lose to Iowa, WVU, St. Louis, Niagara and Troy. Colgate would probably
beat them as well.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

You like other people in this thread have either misread what I posted or selectively read the posts.

The three freshmen recruits are great. The changes to style of play are great. I expect we will continue to add great players.

Now the bring us down to where we currently sit: Capel failed to bring in a big last spring. We have not exceeded OC record expectations. We landed zero recruits in the early signing period.

Realistic assessment or not?

Capel made it very well known that his priority, first and foremost, was to focus on athletic guards and combo players, not bigs. He successfully recruited upgrades over what we had, including the guys who left. Carr, Stewart and Luther would be sitting on the bench for much of the games this year with the players we have now. Now he's recruiting some bigs and will get his share, but is still focusing on the athletic, fast, defense-minded guards and combo type players.

With this OOC schedule, I doubt that Stallings would have gotten more than 6 wins, and many of them would have been nail biters. That's assuming the same lineups and players he had from last year. He would have found a way to lose to STL, Duquesne, and N.Alabama and definitely wouldn't have kept it close against WVU, Niagara and Iowa. Hell, he probably would have found a way to lose to New Orleans. And he isn't capable of recruiting the quality of player that Capel is recruiting. He was the worst coach in Div.1 basketball last year and, thankfully, he's gone. Only an idiot would hire him as a basketball coach, and one did when Barnes cursed us with him.

 

[Chescat]

Capel made it very well known that his priority, first and foremost, was to focus on athletic guards and combo players, not bigs. He successfully recruited upgrades over what we had, including the guys who left. Carr, Stewart and Luther would be sitting on the bench for much of the games this year with the players we have now. Now he's recruiting some bigs and will get his share, but is still focusing on the athletic, fast, defense-minded guards and combo type players.

With this OOC schedule, I doubt that Stallings would have gotten more than 6 wins, and many of them would have been nail biters. That's assuming the same lineups and players he had from last year. He would have found a way to lose to Niagara, STL, Duquesne, and definitely wouldn't have kept it close against WVU and Iowa. And he isn't capable of recruiting the quality of player that Capel is recruiting. He was the worst coach in Div.1 basketball last year and, thankfully, he's gone. Only an idiot would hire him as a basketball coach, and one did when Barnes cursed us with him.

I agree with most of your post. However I do believe that Luther would be a starter.
IMO, even though he's a forward, he is a far better big than Brown and would
start before Chuka who is also a forward.
Carr, who is talented would play under Capel, and would undoubtedly be far
better than what we saw out of him last year.
Since both Carr and Luther left it's hard to know how they'd develop. If they
were like Stevenson, it wouldn't be good. If they bought in like the other
players, they'd be much improved and would have made this year's team
stronger IMO.
Stewart, that one's hard for me because I can't think rationally when it comes
to that guy. LOL

 

[Seneca_Valley]

You like other people in this thread have either misread what I posted or selectively read the posts.

The three freshmen recruits are great. The changes to style of play are great. I expect we will continue to add great players.

Now the bring us down to where we currently sit: Capel failed to bring in a big last spring. We have not exceeded OC record expectations. We landed zero recruits in the early signing period.

Realistic assessment or not?

I understood you and why you argue with these mopes is beyond me. It is not a stretch to consider a team with Luther, Frame, Ellison, Golden, and the best freshmen back with a years experience could not produce a similar record to date, especially with the weaker schedule. It's speculation; so while it is certainly possible the results could be worse, it is moronic to argue with any degree of certainty that it would be.

A word of advice, the Capel honeymoon is in full bloom so table anything remotely critical. Even if it dead on.

 

[H2P 2003]

I agree with most of your post. However I do believe that Luther would be a starter.
IMO, even though he's a forward, he is a far better big than Brown and would
start before Chuka who is also a forward.
Carr, who is talented would play under Capel, and would undoubtedly be far
better than what we saw out of him last year.
Since both Carr and Luther left it's hard to know how they'd develop. If they
were like Stevenson, it wouldn't be good. If they bought in like the other
players, they'd be much improved and would have made this year's team
stronger IMO.
Stewart, that one's hard for me because I can't think rationally when it comes
to that guy. LOL

Unlikely Luther would have been here.

 

[H2P 2003]

I understood you and why you argue with these mopes is beyond me. It is not a stretch to consider a team with Luther, Frame, Ellison, Golden, and the best freshmen back with a years experience could not produce a similar record to date, especially with the weaker schedule. It's speculation; so while it is certainly possible the results could be worse, it is moronic to argue with any degree of certainty that it would be.

A word of advice, the Capel honeymoon is in full bloom so table anything remotely critical. Even if it dead on.

It really is a strange hill to die on...defending the worst pitt basketball coach in history.

 

[gary2]

Capel made it very well known that his priority, first and foremost, was to focus on athletic guards and combo players, not bigs. He successfully recruited upgrades over what we had, including the guys who left. Carr, Stewart and Luther would be sitting on the bench for much of the games this year with the players we have now. Now he's recruiting some bigs and will get his share, but is still focusing on the athletic, fast, defense-minded guards and combo type players.

With this OOC schedule, I doubt that Stallings would have gotten more than 6 wins, and many of them would have been nail biters. That's assuming the same lineups and players he had from last year. He would have found a way to lose to STL, Duquesne, and N.Alabama and definitely wouldn't have kept it close against WVU, Niagara and Iowa. Hell, he probably would have found a way to lose to New Orleans. And he isn't capable of recruiting the quality of player that Capel is recruiting. He was the worst coach in Div.1 basketball last year and, thankfully, he's gone. Only an idiot would hire him as a basketball coach, and one did when Barnes cursed us with him.

Pitt was 8-5 in the OC last season with only 2 returning players. They opened at Navy 20-12, Montana 26-8, UC Santa Barbera 23-9, PSU 26-13 and Okl St. 21-15. They also played WVU 26-11, Towson 18-14, Mt.St.Marys 18-14, Lehigh 16-14 and Duq 16-16. They only played 3 teams with losing records. High Point 14-16, McNeese 11-17 and Delaware St 4-28.

Their record was 8-5 with 11 new players. With experience and newcomers, I would like their chances to improve on 8-5 (not that far from the current 9-3) especially if they started against YSU 4-9, VMI 6-7, Troy 6-5, C.Ark 4-8 and N.Ala 3-10.

 

[gary2]

Joe absolutely explained this very well IMO. Is there anyone in their
right mind who believes that last year's team could win games on this year's
schedule by 42 pts (New Orleans); 35 pts (Md East Sh.); 39 pts. (VMI);
also a few other 20+ pt. wins, and some other double digit wins.
Intangibles that are crucial to a teams success; i.e. energy, intensity,
improving players output (Chuka), team chemistry, etc. etc. are way
beyond what was in place with last year's crew. Last year or this year,
makes no difference in my mind.....those players under Stallings would not
even be close to performing the way this year's team performs under Capel.

Gary, as far as answering your question about wins and losses......IMO
they'd have a worse record compared to this year's team. I feel they'd
lose to Iowa, WVU, St. Louis, Niagara and Troy. Colgate would probably
beat them as well.

Thanks for the reply. See my latest post that indicates why I disagree with your last paragraph.

 

[gary2]

Pitt was 8-5 in the OC last season with only 2 returning players. They opened at Navy 20-12, Montana 26-8, UC Santa Barbera 23-9, PSU 26-13 and Okl St. 21-15. They also played WVU 26-11, Towson 18-14, Mt.St.Marys 18-14, Lehigh 16-14 and Duq 16-16. They only played 3 teams with losing records. High Point 14-16, McNeese 11-17 and Delaware St 4-28.

Their record was 8-5 with 11 new players. With experience and newcomers, I would like their chances to improve on 8-5 (not that far from the current 9-3) especially if they started against YSU 4-9, VMI 6-7, Troy 6-5, C.Ark 4-8 and N.Ala 3-10.

The overall point is not to quibble on the hypothetical, but to point out that despite early recruiting success and a better looking product, we have not exceeded OC record expectations and have certainly had a disappointing early signing period.