OT: 2023 Pirates were a success

[HailToPitt725]

Obviously they didn’t reach the postseason, but I’m not sure many people expected them to. However, if you told me at the beginning of the season that the following would happen:

• Won 76 games (and finished above the Cardinals!)
• Almost all of our top prospects graduated to the majors
• Drafted a once-in-a-generation pitcher who’s expected to be in Pittsburgh next season
• Extend Bryan Reynolds long-term
• Mitch Keller would make his first All-Star Game
• Ke’Bryan Hayes would solidify himself as NOT being a bust

I’d call that a win. Don’t let the poor early-mid summer distract you from the fact that they took a major step towards contending in the National League moving forward. For the first time since maybe 2016, if not 2015, there is legitimate excitement around this team!

 

[The Ole Six-Fiver]

I didn’t pay an ounce of attention to them tbh, but only based on this post and general hearsay, I’d have to agree. The only team in town besides our hoops to make some semblance of progress on this miserable sports year.

 

[HailtoPitt]

One year window before the Yankees come calling?

 

[HailToPitt725]

I didn’t pay an ounce of attention to them tbh, but only based on this post and general hearsay, I’d have to agree. The only team in town besides our hoops to make some semblance of progress on this miserable sports year.

I think the only thing that held this season back from being great, aside from the obvious, was the the decline of Roansy Contreras and Oneil Cruz’s season-ending injury. Still hasn’t had his full-blown breakout season… yet.

 

[Dan1911]

In the playoffs?

No


Season a failure

 

[MorningCoffee13]

Was it a success after being in 1st place at beginning of June?

 

[YourPittDanceTeam]

Obviously they didn’t reach the postseason, but I’m not sure many people expected them to. However, if you told me at the beginning of the season that the following would happen:

• Won 76 games (and finished above the Cardinals!)
• Almost all of our top prospects graduated to the majors
• Drafted a once-in-a-generation pitcher who’s expected to be in Pittsburgh next season
• Extend Bryan Reynolds long-term
• Mitch Keller would make his first All-Star Game
• Ke’Bryan Hayes would solidify himself as NOT being a bust

I’d call that a win. Don’t let the poor early-mid summer distract you from the fact that they took a major step towards contending in the National League moving forward. For the first time since maybe 2016, if not 2015, there is legitimate excitement around this team!

I'm sorry but I would ot call the season a success. They again finished below .500, that is not being a success. They have conditioned the baseball fans in Pittsburgh to accept mediocrity. We are supposed to celebrate a 76 win season as if it was a success? Sorry, no.
The Pirates are years away from getting anywhere near playoff consideration around MLB. You are making a lot of assumptions about a lot of very young baseball talent. How they did this year, has no impact upon what they will do next year. Until the organiztion is willing to go out and spend some money to sign some MLB ready talent, they will continue to chase the .500 mark and that is not something a successful organization does.

 

[Burgh15]

I'm not moving the bar. This season was not a success.

 

[h2p_5150]

Hayes learning how to hit was a huge development. I can't call the season a success though. They need more star power if they are ever going to win anything. Can Cruz provide that? That's a question that hasn't been answered yet.

 

[HailToPitt725]

I;m sorry but I would ot call the season a success. They again finished below .500, that is not being a success. They have conditioned the baseball fans in Pittsburgh to accept mediocrity. We are supposed to celebrate a 76 win season as if it was a success? Sorry, no.
The Pirates are years away from getting anywhere near playoff consideration around MLB. You are making a lot of assumptions about a lot of very young baseball talent. How they did this year, has no impact upon what they will do next year. Until the organiztion is willing to go out and spend some money to sign some MLB ready talent, they will continue to chase the .500 mark and that is not something a successful organization does.

I don’t know. When they finish nine games above the O/U, after the last four years, I’ll take it.

Also, I have to disagree about not spending money. Did they not go out and spend last offseason on several veterans? Just do that again this offseason and I’ll be happy. We just need players that will complement our young core; they don’t need to go out and sign Shohei, nor should they. Just my opinion, though.

 

[Burgh15]

I don’t know. When they finish nine games above the O/U, after the last four years, I’ll take it.

Also, I have to disagree about not spending money. Did they not go out and spend last offseason on several veterans? Just do that again this offseason and I’ll be happy. We just need players that will complement our young core; they don’t need to go out and sign Shohei, nor should they. Just my opinion, though.

They rank 29th out of 30 in payroll. They aren't spending money.

 

[HailToPitt725]

They rank 29th out of 30 in payroll. They aren't spending money.

I get what you’re saying, but I think that’s the wrong way to view it. They shouldn’t go out and spend tens of millions in free agency just because of their league positioning because. In theory, the payroll will naturally rise as we extend our young players.

If they go out and make similar signings this offseason as they last year (starting pitcher, reliever, infielder or two), I’d be just fine with that.

Edit: I’d also imagine the payroll could rise as the season goes on depending what they do at the trade deadline.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

I’m digging the pirates these days because I’m into niche teams and/or niche sports, so I’ll play along. It’s dangerous calling the season a success because the owner sets the bar so low that calling a season when a team finishes 10 games under .500 a success is music to his ears.

But the team had a significant increase in wins over 2022 and that is a good thing. People now assume that the Pirates will have a similar jump in wins next year and be around 87 wins. I’m not going to assume that kind of jump, but do think it’s reasonable in 2 years, provided the players progress and the ownership supplements the team with a couple FA pieces. I just think the team overachieved a bit this year relative to talent, and I think 78-80 wins next year is a reasonable take.

 

[HailToPitt725]

I’m digging the pirates these days because I’m into niche teams and/or niche sports, so I’ll play along. It’s dangerous calling the season a success because the owner sets the bar so low that calling a season when a team finishes 10 games under .500 a success is music to his ears.

But the team had a significant increase in wins over 2022 and that is a good thing. People now assume that the Pirates will have a similar jump in wins next year and be around 87 wins. I’m not going to assume that kind of jump, but do think it’s reasonable in 2 years, provided the players progress and the ownership supplements the team with a couple FA pieces. I just think the team overachieved a bit this year relative to talent, and I think 78-80 wins next year is a reasonable take.

That’s fair. I think it’s possible if Cruz is healthy for a full season and Skenes turns out the way they think he will. I’m not going to predict how many wins they’ll get already, but my expectations are for them to at least contend for a Wild Card spot.

 

[KennyTheKangaroo]

Not a success. I don’t care what their record was down the stretch. The rotation is still a hodgepodge of nothingness. I’m glad Mitch and oviedo had nice seasons but they were like in the 30s or 40s in pitcher WAR. That ain’t getting me excited. O’Neil Cruz still is a question mark. First base is a question mark. Suwinski still has not had a complete season.

Bullpen still is unproven. Not excited for 2024

 

[AllegeneeGenacGenac]

I get what you’re saying, but I think that’s the wrong way to view it. They shouldn’t go out and spend tens of millions in free agency just because of their league positioning because. In theory, the payroll will naturally rise as we extend our young players.

If they go out and make similar signings this offseason as they last year (starting pitcher, reliever, infielder or two), I’d be just fine with that.

Edit: I’d also imagine the payroll could rise as the season goes on depending what they do at the trade deadline.

They won't extend their younger players. Those players will be traded away before the team loses full control over their contract so the payroll systems stays as low as possible.

No idea why you'd be okay with an owner of a team you support refusing to even attempt to compete.

 

[HailToPitt725]

They won't extend their younger players. Those players will be traded away before the team loses full control over their contract so the payroll systems stays as low as possible.

No idea why you'd be okay with an owner of a team you support refusing to even attempt to compete.

They just extended two of their core players- Hayes and Reynolds- the past two seasons. It’s likely that some of the young guys coming up will not be extended long-term, but I also think it’s no longer a forgone conclusion that they’ll be shipped out once they do good.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Hayes and Reynolds doing what they did = good.

Mitch Keller = Ehhhh. Is a .421 ERA good enough for a #2 starter?

The rest of the young "studs" emerging = not so good. Davis is a bum. Cruz was out. Priester sucks. Piguero was so so. Gonzalez seems like a bust. Endy was only okay. Obviously it's early, but I'm saying you can't call any of them a success yet.

Suwinksi continues to create more questions than answers. I guess he'll just be a platoon outfielder who strikes out a lot. Or a starter because we have no one else.

And then some young guys/other guys I've barely heard of stepped up at opportune times. Are Palacios, Andujar, Rivas, and Triolo future starters? They seem like decent bench pieces, but I'm not sure how much value you're getting out of them as everyday players. We need 2013-2015 McCutchens (dramatic effect - obviously they all won't be that), not 2013-2015 Jordy Mercers.

Can Oviedo do that again?

I'd probably label this season as one that makes next season interesting, which isn't a bad thing.

 

[upj87]

Obviously they didn’t reach the postseason, but I’m not sure many people expected them to. However, if you told me at the beginning of the season that the following would happen:

• Won 76 games (and finished above the Cardinals!)
• Almost all of our top prospects graduated to the majors
• Drafted a once-in-a-generation pitcher who’s expected to be in Pittsburgh next season
• Extend Bryan Reynolds long-term
• Mitch Keller would make his first All-Star Game
• Ke’Bryan Hayes would solidify himself as NOT being a bust

I’d call that a win. Don’t let the poor early-mid summer distract you from the fact that they took a major step towards contending in the National League moving forward. For the first time since maybe 2016, if not 2015, there is legitimate excitement around this team!

wow, the bar is that low...

 

[HailToPitt725]

wow, the bar is that low...

It honestly was. But I do think they’re turning the corner. The one thing that still concerns me is that Shelton will be back in 2024. I hope I’m wrong, but I could see that coming back to bite us.

 

[YourPittDanceTeam]

I don’t know. When they finish nine games above the O/U, after the last four years, I’ll take it.

Also, I have to disagree about not spending money. Did they not go out and spend last offseason on several veterans? Just do that again this offseason and I’ll be happy. We just need players that will complement our young core; they don’t need to go out and sign Shohei, nor should they. Just my opinion, though.

You are correct, they did spend money on several veterans. My problem is the talent of the veterans they traded for. Players like McCutchen, Santana, Hedges and Hill are all nice people who unfortunately are passed their prime in terms of being a MLB player. Why can't they go out there and get proven MLB players who are in their prime? The reality of it is, the Pirates are cheap.
Until Nutting decides to reinvest some of that money into the team and getting good veteran players who are in their prime, the Pirates are a failure.

 

[Pittpharm77]

They won't extend their younger players. Those players will be traded away before the team loses full control over their contract so the payroll systems stays as low as possible.

No idea why you'd be okay with an owner of a team you support refusing to even attempt to compete.

Have to agree with this. We've seen this before. Young promising players get traded, sometimes
in fire sale fashion. A decent number go on to have success. Most recent offense was failing to
upgrade with ONE decent starter following the 2013-2015 playoff teams.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Mitch Keller = Ehhhh. Is a .421 ERA good enough for a #2 starter?

A number two starter? I'm pretty sure a guy with a .421 era would be anyone's number one!

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

A number two starter? I'm pretty sure a guy with a .421 era would be anyone's number one!

I can't even properly assess him. He's 32nd in ERA among qualifying starters... but then you see that there are only 44 total qualifying starters. They probably need to modify their requirements (one inning pitched per game played) to match the current state of the game.

I think Skenes goes sub 4.00 next season... which probably means close to 7.5.

 

[CJsE]

Hey everyone, this season was a huge success.

They only lost 86 games.
They didn't finish above league average in a single major offensive or pitching stat.
They weren't dead last in total payroll (only dead last in 26-man active roster payroll).

But the most important measure of success is that they have likely finished in the top 5 profitable teams again with more than $60million in operating income.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I can't even properly assess him. He's 32nd in ERA among qualifying starters... but then you see that there are only 44 total qualifying starters. They probably need to modify their requirements (one inning pitched per game played) to match the current state of the game.

I think Skenes goes sub 4.00 next season... which probably means close to 7.5.

He pitched almost 200 innings this season, which as you note is a big deal in baseball circa 2023. Having a pitcher who can take the ball every fifth or sixth day is a big deal at this point.

 

[jtownknowitall]

56-78 after April 30.

 

[HailToPitt725]

56-78 after April 30.

They were also 35-37 after the All Star Break. An awful 62-game stretch in-between then and the 20-8 start is what did them in. Had they kept that .500 pace from May onward, they win the division.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Obviously they didn’t reach the postseason, but I’m not sure many people expected them to. However, if you told me at the beginning of the season that the following would happen:

• Won 76 games (and finished above the Cardinals!)
• Almost all of our top prospects graduated to the majors
• Drafted a once-in-a-generation pitcher who’s expected to be in Pittsburgh next season
• Extend Bryan Reynolds long-term
• Mitch Keller would make his first All-Star Game
• Ke’Bryan Hayes would solidify himself as NOT being a bust

I’d call that a win. Don’t let the poor early-mid summer distract you from the fact that they took a major step towards contending in the National League moving forward. For the first time since maybe 2016, if not 2015, there is legitimate excitement around this team!

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

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If you'd have told me that three of those four teams would be in the playoffs in two seasons and I had to guess which three... yeah, I'd have gotten that one right.

 

[NCanton Panther]

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That’s an interesting stat those 4 teams with 100+ losses in 2021 and what 3 if the 4 did this year.

So from that article, can we have as much success with our 5 top 100 draft picks in 2021 as Arizona’s 7 top 75 from 2019.

For those curious, the Pirates 5 are Davis, Solometto, Chandler, Wilson and Bishop. Davis is already here, can he become a bigger contributor and how close are the other 4.

 

[HailToPitt725]

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Thanks for sharing. It’s very interesting to see how those three made the leap in 2023. Texas simply spent a ton and now has a payroll pushing $200m. Baltimore hit on more prospects (and trades for prospects) than I’ve ever seen… then you have Arizona. They seemed to have a good mix of free agent signings (payroll is at $116m) and prospects, as NCP mentioned. That’s the blueprint that the Pirates appear to be attempting to emulate.

It’s worth noting that those three were a little bit ahead of us in their rebuild, so if we’re going to make that leap, it’ll need to happen in the next year or so. We’ll see, should make for a fun year of baseball in 2024.

 

[CJsE]

We’ll see, should make for a fun year of baseball in 2024.

I know that I'll be on the edge of my seat wondering if Nutting will maintain his streak of 6 consecutive years among the top 5 most profitable owners while finishing 4th in the division.

 

[HailToPitt725]

I know that I'll be on the edge of my seat wondering if Nutting will maintain his streak of 6 consecutive years among the top 5 most profitable owners while finishing 4th in the division.

I guess I don’t really get the point in responses like this. We know what he is. If you wish to ignore the team or stop following because of him, that’s fine. Perhaps I’m a glutton for punishment, but I’ll keep supporting them.

There’s legitimate reasons to be excited about next year, but if you don’t see it that way, that’s fine also!

 

[FreeportPanther]

I know that I'll be on the edge of my seat wondering if Nutting will maintain his streak of 6 consecutive years among the top 5 most profitable owners while finishing 4th in the division.

This year's World Series features the 8th payroll team from the AL vs. the
23rd payroll team. The Pirates are 27th.

BTW, the #1 Payroll team is the Philadelphia Phillies who LOsT to that 23rd payroll team.

The biggest spending teams will be doing the exact same thing the Pirates will be doing this week. WATCHING the WS on TV!!!

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

This year's World Series features the 8th payroll team from the AL vs. the
23rd payroll team. The Pirates are 27th.

BTW, the #1 Payroll team is the Philadelphia Phillies who LOsT to that 23rd payroll team.

The biggest spending teams will be doing the exact same thing the Pirates will be doing this week. WATCHING the WS on TV!!!

As much as I'm inclined to root for the underdog, stuff like that incentivizes Nutting to do exactly what he's been doing. And it also gives the MLB it's typical "see, the system works!" outlier to point to.

 

[FreeportPanther]

As much as I'm inclined to root for the underdog, stuff like that incentivizes Nutting to do exactly what he's been doing. And it also gives the MLB it's typical "see, the system works!" outlier to point to.

The point is, spending doesn't necessarily equate to success.
A team that spends wisely and acquires good young talent and develops it can compete.

Time will tell if the PIrates meet this standard.

I totally agree Nutting needs to step up this off season. He doesn't have to go crazy, but some investment in key pieces is required.

2 SP and a 1B at a minimum. He's on the clock.

 

[pittdan77]

As much as I'm inclined to root for the underdog, stuff like that incentivizes Nutting to do exactly what he's been doing. And it also gives the MLB it's typical "see, the system works!" outlier to point to.

This and only this so long as the $ keeps rolling in.

 

[CJsE]

This year's World Series features the 8th payroll team from the AL vs. the
23rd payroll team. The Pirates are 27th.

BTW, the #1 Payroll team is the Philadelphia Phillies who LOsT to that 23rd payroll team.

The biggest spending teams will be doing the exact same thing the Pirates will be doing this week. WATCHING the WS on TV!!!

Yeah, being 1 game away from their 2nd straight World Series appearance is definitely the same as finishing under .500 for the 5th straight year and 28th time in 31 years.

Also, none of your payroll stats are correct. You need to pay more attention to your filters if you're going to use them to try and make a point and shut someone up. Let's try changing that defaulted "2024" payroll on Sportrac to the correct year and see what the salary rankings are for this season.

Phillies are 5th highest payroll.
Rangers are the 4th highest.
Arizona is 21st
Pirates are 29th.

If people would stop swallowing the shit this franchise is putting on their plate maybe we could get an actual franchise.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

The point is, spending doesn't necessarily equate to success.
A team that spends wisely and acquires good young talent and develops it can compete.

Time will tell if the PIrates meet this standard.

I totally agree Nutting needs to step up this off season. He doesn't have to go crazy, but some investment in key pieces is required.

2 SP and a 1B at a minimum. He's on the clock.

I'm all for spending wisely. That's why I hate when people chastise the Pirates for the payroll for being low in years where they have no shot anyway. Like, what's the difference if they went out and acquired two $20M players in 2021? However, Nutting's wisdom comes in the form of completely playing a broken system. His main objective is not to win; he just hopes it happens by accident during his normal course of business, which is exploiting revenue sharing. Hell, he might even secretly root against winning at times, because it creates more expectations to spend.

There's zero defense to be had for a system that allows an owner to operate as he does and still churn the amount of profit he assumes. None at all. And, from a competitive standpoint, the fact that the Dodgers have a legit chance every single year but every now and then they won't make the WS and a blue moon team like the Diamondbacks will slither in... that doesn't speak to a well-functioning system, either. The Royals won the world series - yippee! They haven't had a winning season in the eight after that.