OT: 2023 Pirates were a success

[FreeportPanther]

Yeah, being 1 game away from their 2nd straight World Series appearance is definitely the same as finishing under .500 for the 5th straight year and 28th time in 31 years.

Also, none of your payroll stats are correct. You need to pay more attention to your filters if you're going to use them to try and make a point and shut someone up. Let's try changing that defaulted "2024" payroll on Sportrac to the correct year and see what the salary rankings are for this season.

Phillies are 5th highest payroll.
Rangers are the 4th highest.
Arizona is 21st
Pirates are 29th.

If people would stop swallowing the shit this franchise is putting on their plate maybe we could get an actual franchise.

NO one said it was the same.
Simply stating a FACT that spending doesn't necessarily equate to success.
The Padres, Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Braves have all spent to exorbitant levels and have moderate to no success.

The Diamondbacks are playing in the WS. With a payroll in the 20's. FACT.

The updated stats still show that 9 out of the top 10 spending teams are watching the WS on TV.

Nutting is here for a LONG time. He has no intention of selling the franchise, and will keep it in the family upon his demise.
Pittsburgh is stuck with the Pirates and Nutting.

The team has new management, and they have young talent here and in the pipeline. I stated Nutting needs to invest this year. We'll see if he does.

 

[FreeportPanther]

I'm all for spending wisely. That's why I hate when people chastise the Pirates for the payroll for being low in years where they have no shot anyway. Like, what's the difference if they went out and acquired two $20M players in 2021? However, Nutting's wisdom comes in the form of completely playing a broken system. His main objective is not to win; he just hopes it happens by accident during his normal course of business, which is exploiting revenue sharing. Hell, he might even secretly root against winning at times, because it creates more expectations to spend.

There's zero defense to be had for a system that allows an owner to operate as he does and still churn the amount of profit he assumes. None at all. And, from a competitive standpoint, the fact that the Dodgers have a legit chance every single year but every now and then they won't make the WS and a blue moon team like the Diamondbacks will slither in... that doesn't speak to a well-functioning system, either. The Royals won the world series - yippee! They haven't had a winning season in the eight after that.

Well, that's baseball today. Sounds like you need a new sport to pay attention to.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Well, that's baseball today. Sounds like you need a new sport to pay attention to.

I figured that out about 25 years ago. It's why my TV is seldom even turned on during the summer.

 

[FreeportPanther]

I figured that out about 25 years ago. It's why my TV is seldom even turned on during the summer.

But, college football is worse, yet here you are, a Pitt fan.
Another hopeless cause.

 

[CJsE]

The updated stats still show that 9 out of the top 10 spending teams are watching the WS on TV.

That's an amazing and insightful stat, I can't understand how at least 7 of the top 10 spending teams aren't in the World Series.

The Nutting's are still here because this city's nostalgia for the good Pirate years and people still give him money. If the Pirates weren't one of the most profitable teams in baseball for the past 30 years, he wouldn't still be the owner. Clearly the only thing that ownership group cares about is money, if the well dried up in 2000, or 2005, or 2010 then who knows what happens. But instead they'll keep bringing in nearly $200 million in revenue and spend $60 million

So I give up. I'm here having the same type of argument about how "this low spending team made the World Series" in the same way there are constantly people arguing that the star system is useless and rigged because some 2-stars actually turn out to be good players. Fans that continue to give this team money deserve all of the 100-loss seasons they will get.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

But, college football is worse, yet here you are, a Pitt fan.
Another hopeless cause.

1) Pitt usually puts a winning product on the field; the Pirates do not.

2) Pitt's limitations are a little more inherent than having a tightwad for an owner; at least they're trying. Being a small market team sucks in baseball, but it doesn't mean you have to conduct business as Nutting does... and to think his reward for doing it that way is to actually be one of the most profitable owners in the game?!

3) Professional sports are much more of a championship-or-bust mentality. There are 352 D1 teams in college basketball; should they all be disappointed if they didn't win the national championship? Of course not. College sports are better-structed to recognize/accommodate different tiers of success. A 7-5 team can still end its season with a postseason win. Pitt basketball has won postseason championship tournaments. Pitt football has won a postseason championship. It's just different.

4) If college football does continue to venture down the path it's headed on and emulate more of a professional model with MLB-esque disadvantages for the have-nots, then I probably won't be watching Pitt much either.

 

[FreeportPanther]

1) Pitt usually puts a winning product on the field; the Pirates do not.

2) Pitt's limitations are a little more inherent than having a tightwad for an owner; at least they're trying. Being a small market team sucks in baseball, but it doesn't mean you have to conduct business as Nutting does... and to think his reward for doing it that way is to actually be one of the most profitable owners in the game?!

3) Professional sports are much more of a championship-or-bust mentality. There are 352 D1 teams in college basketball; should they all be disappointed if they didn't win the national championship? Of course not. College sports are better-structed to recognize/accommodate different tiers of success. A 7-5 team can still end its season with a postseason win. Pitt basketball has won postseason championship tournaments. Pitt football has won a postseason championship. It's just different.

4) If college football does continue to venture down the path it's headed on and emulate more of a professional model with MLB-esque disadvantages for the have-nots, then I probably won't be watching Pitt much either.

Interesting rationalization.
CFB is on the glide path to doing exactly that.
Running out of sports to pay attention to.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

I guess I don’t really get the point in responses like this. We know what he is. If you wish to ignore the team or stop following because of him, that’s fine. Perhaps I’m a glutton for punishment, but I’ll keep supporting them.

There’s legitimate reasons to be excited about next year, but if you don’t see it that way, that’s fine also!

It's because the first instance where a decision comes down to win or make money, we all know what the decision will be.

He's the greediest bastard who has ever owned a sports team. I can't fathom how much money someone needs to pocket at the expense of always fielding a team that loses.

He's made over a billion in profit and team value appreciation. You'd think at some point you'd want to field a winner. Says a lot about the guy. He's a POS.

 

[HailToPitt725]

It's because the first instance where a decision comes down to win or make money, we all know what the decision will be.

He's the greediest bastard who has ever owned a sports team. I can't fathom how much money someone needs to pocket at the expense of always fielding a team that loses.

He's made over a billion in profit and team value appreciation. You'd think at some point you'd want to field a winner. Says a lot about the guy. He's a POS.

I’m not trying to be a Bob Nutting apologist, but he’s already extended Hayes and Reynolds as part of this new core. I wouldn’t be surprised if the payroll approaches $100m by 2025 between additional contract extensions and trade deadline acquisitions.

The most they’ll probably do in free agency is what we saw last offseason or what we saw the last time they were a postseason contender. It is what it is. But like I said, that won’t impact whether I follow the team or not.

 

[FreeportPanther]

I’m not trying to be a Bob Nutting apologist, but he’s already extended Hayes and Reynolds as part of this new core. I wouldn’t be surprised if the payroll approaches $100m by 2025 between additional contract extensions and trade deadline acquisitions.

The most they’ll probably do in free agency is what we saw last offseason or what we saw the last time they were a postseason contender. It is what it is. But like I said, that won’t impact whether I follow the team or not.

I think they make a play in FA market.
They're in on the best pitcher in Japan who's coming to the states.
Plus, there are some middle tier SP's in the mix who won't cost an arm and a leg.

Also of interest is what they do at 1B. No in house solutions there.

Like I said, Nutting is on the clock. Time will tell.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

I think they make a play in FA market.
They're in on the best pitcher in Japan who's coming to the states.
Plus, there are some middle tier SP's in the mix who won't cost an arm and a leg.

Also of interest is what they do at 1B. No in house solutions there.

Like I said, Nutting is on the clock. Time will tell.

Wouldn't you just put Triolo at first? You'd be wasting his glove, but Hayes is obviously a fixture at third and they're going to let Cruz bitch them into playing short. I would think 2nd would be some combination or platoon of Piguero (also platooning) at short, Gonzalez (assuming he makes the team), and Bae.

They might even just go with Rivas, no?

 

[FreeportPanther]

Wouldn't you just put Triolo at first? You'd be wasting his glove, but Hayes is obviously a fixture at third and they're going to let Cruz bitch them into playing short. I would think 2nd would be some combination or platoon of Piguero (also platooning) at short, Gonzalez (assuming he makes the team), and Bae.

They might even just go with Rivas, no?

I'd say Triolo is going to be the utility guy, get AB's all over the infield.

Rivas is toast. Next year's 1B isn't on the roster at present.
Second base will settle in with one of the guys who auditioned this season.

They'll sign a 1B. May be the guy they traded to the Brewers for a second time around, Santana.

Cruz is a problem at SS because he'd be better elsewhere, but it is what it is.

 

[CJsE]

I’m not trying to be a Bob Nutting apologist, but he’s already extended Hayes and Reynolds as part of this new core. I wouldn’t be surprised if the payroll approaches $100m by 2025 between additional contract extensions and trade deadline acquisitions.

The most they’ll probably do in free agency is what we saw last offseason or what we saw the last time they were a postseason contender. It is what it is. But like I said, that won’t impact whether I follow the team or not.

Golly gee, $100 million by 2025, how could they possibly afford it?

2022 national media rights deal - $60.1 million
2022 estimated (Forbes) local media rights sharing - $61 million
2022 estimated Ticket and Concession Net Income - $45 million (2019 per person income, multiplied by 2022 attendance)
2022 Competitive balance distribution - ?

 

[Panther Holla]

I would not call 2023 a success at all. Baby steps forward and signs of promise. But the starting pitching is in shambles, and I’m not counting on the Bayou Baby to turn into the next Pedro Martinez. Still too many AAAA players and bargain basement signings. Best I will allow is that the Pirates don’t suck.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

from a competitive standpoint, the fact that the Dodgers have a legit chance every single year but every now and then they won't make the WS

Every now and then like four of the last five years (with the covid season being the exception)? Or like 26 of the 29 years since in the 1994 strike?

The Dodgers do have a chance just about every year, but they do a really poor job of turning those chances into actual World Series appearances, let alone championships.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Every now and then like four of the last five years (with the covid season being the exception)? Or like 26 of the 29 years since in the 1994 strike?

The Dodgers do have a chance just about every year, but they do a really poor job of turning those chances into actual World Series appearances, let alone championships.

I was totally not exaggerating. I just crawled out from under a rock, and I literally thought the Dodgers have played in 90% of all world series to date. That's my bad.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I was totally not exaggerating. I just crawled out from under a rock, and I literally thought the Dodgers have played in 90% of all world series to date. That's my bad.

The thing is they seem to make the playoffs around 90% of the time, but for whatever reason they rarely seem to win it all.

I've seen several stories that have said that at this point the Dodger fans are pretty much "ho hum, we made the playoffs again. Wake me up when we get to the World Series."

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Which, let's be honest, would be a great place to be.

 

[FreeportPanther]

There's a great sports documentary on Netflix about Yogi Berra.
Talk about World Series rings, I don't think anyone has more than Yogi as a player and coach.

Great line, Berra walked into the Yankee clubhouse after he got discharged from the Navy. He was still wearing his uniform and Joe DiMaggio looks at him and says, "He doesn't look like much of a ballplayer."
The equipment manager looks at him and says, "He doesn't look like much of a sailor!"

One year Berra batted around .340, had 28 HR's and only struck out 12 times! Think about that for a while!!

 

[CJsE]

There's a great sports documentary on Netflix about Yogi Berra.
Talk about World Series rings, I don't think anyone has more than Yogi as a player and coach.

Great line, Berra walked into the Yankee clubhouse after he got discharged from the Navy. He was still wearing his uniform and Joe DiMaggio looks at him and says, "He doesn't look like much of a ballplayer."
The equipment manager looks at him and says, "He doesn't look like much of a sailor!"

One year Berra batted around .340, had 28 HR's and only struck out 12 times! Think about that for a while!!

Yogi Berra won his 3rd MVP somehow in 1955 and almost doubled Mantle's votes

	BA	OBP	Runs	HR	RBI	WAR
Berra	.272	.349	84	27	108	4.5
Al Kaline	.340	.421	121	27	102	8.2
Mantle	.306	.431	121	37	99	9.5

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Yogi Berra won his 3rd MVP somehow in 1955 and almost doubled Mantle's votes

There was a time when MVP voters ascribed magical powers to catchers and shortstops, and voted accordingly.