OT: Big 12 Expansion Update

[pittdan77]

All is not well.

The longer this goes, the slower it seems to be moving. SI is claiming Oklahoma is getting cold feet while none of the schools appear to be a true odds on favorite. At any rate, there are several media outlets hinting that it might be dead.

Doubt it means anything in the near term but I'd almost guarantee other conferences have to be taking a look at what's going on. TV too. Maybe it's cheaper to kill the Big 12 off?

Pure speculation on my part but it is certainly worth watching if you are a CFB fan.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...no-longer-supports-big-12-expansion/91175144/

http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...-conference-realignment-expansion-david-bored

 

[Jpripper88]

I really want the B12 to work because I hate the idea of 4 16 team conferences, but it doesn't make sense for OU and UT to agree to anything that extends their GoR.

 

[Pitt79]

4 16-team conferences would be the best thing! The 4 champs could be given the playoff spots and nobody would have a right to complain IMO, and everyone would have a chance, win your division, win your league title game and you're in.

 

[Jpripper88]

4 16-team conferences would be the best thing! The 4 champs could be given the playoff spots and nobody would have a right to complain IMO, and everyone would have a chance, win your division, win your league title game and you're in.

You have expressed your opinion on this before, but now we found you don't really care about or follow NCAAF, so...

As someone who does follow and really like NCAAF as a whole, I want the best teams, not 4 "champs". Of course, the playoff will never be limited to that because the power brokers will never let that happen, since most of them are in the same conferences. I think more importantly in the conference realignment argument, I don't want 16 team conferences because 14 is already impersonal enough.

 

[Pitt79]

That would make me interested, if it was less subjective, and even Pitt might get in, and it wouldn't be slanted to blue blood programs by the votes of talking heads, it could get way more interesting, instead of just seeing tOSU and 'Bama every year.

 

[Jpripper88]

That would make me interested, if it was less subjective, and even Pitt might get in, and it wouldn't be slanted to blue blood programs by the votes of talking heads, it could get way more interesting, instead of just seeing tOSU and 'Bama every year.

I think the public would, by and large, MUCH rather have the best teams in it. It just so happens to be the best programs usually are always in contention.

However, I think the best solution is 5 conferences. 5 champs get automatic bids and then you take the 3 next best teams picked by the committee. Then everyone gets a shot and you still don't screw over the teams/conferences that might have 2 or 3 of the best teams in the country.

 

[bayardstreet]

If they don't expand it shows Oklahoma wants to leave at some point. They don't want to be locked up

 

[raleighpanther]

TCU is likely to vote no. That's kind of amusing, since they just got in themselves recently. The last immigrant who fights and claws their way in often wants to lock the door behind them.

 

[Pitt79]

However, I think the best solution is 5 conferences. 5 champs get automatic bids and then you take the 3 next best teams picked by the committee. Then everyone gets a shot and you still don't screw over the teams/conferences that might have 2 or 3 of the best teams in the country.

That would be OK, then my main concern is rectified, that every P5 team has a path into the playoff simply by winning games on the field without having to depend on subjective criteria and voters.

 

[yourhired]

I was surprised that WVU would vote no toward Cincy. Both OU & TX drive the bus and if they don't want to expand it will be a no go on expansion. I can see a scenario where TX, TCU join the ACC and OK & OK State join the SEC. The rest of the schools could be left scrambling everyone seems to be running away from KU, KState, and Iowa ST.

 

[pittdan77]

Saw someone on the WVU board say that what we're seeing with the Big 12 is exactly what Paterno wanted with an Eastern conference. In retrospect, having one or two "big cheese" members that control everything is not a good way to do business.

 

[Jpripper88]

That would be OK, then my main concern is rectified, that every P5 team has a path into the playoff simply by winning games on the field without having to depend on subjective criteria and voters.

I think that happens by 2020-21 if we are still at 5 conferences. That "no look-in" contract really isn't a "no look-in" and there is lots of money to be made.

However, I will say that Pitt certainly can get in under the current system. Go undefeated and they are in. No doubt about it. Even at 12-1 they are about 75% to get into the 4 team playoff, so if the schedule is decent, they are almost assuredly in.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

You have expressed your opinion on this before, but now we found you don't really care about or follow NCAAF, so...

As someone who does follow and really like NCAAF as a whole, I want the best teams, not 4 "champs". Of course, the playoff will never be limited to that because the power brokers will never let that happen, since most of them are in the same conferences. I think more importantly in the conference realignment argument, I don't want 16 team conferences because 14 is already impersonal enough.

The rub, of course is always how do you pick the four best teams? That's why that approach doesn't work. It ends up becoming the four most profitable teams – which isn't always the same thing.

I prefer the NFL version where if you win your division/conference, you are guaranteed a shot at the crown regardless of the relative size of your fan base or public opinion polling.

 

[Piranha]

4 - 16 team conferences, and an 8 team playoff are good possibilities down the road.

 

[Pitt79]

I prefer the NFL version where if you win your division/conference, you are guaranteed a shot at the crown regardless of the relative size of your fan base or public opinion polling.

Me too, college football is the only sport that has always been obsessed with having the subjectively best teams in their playoff vs. division winners.

 

[pittmeister]

I really want the B12 to work because I hate the idea of 4 16 team conferences, but it doesn't make sense for OU and UT to agree to anything that extends their GoR.

I don't. The Big 12 is the competition. Also, remember the Big 12 started this whole expansion avalanche. When they were the Big 8, they decided to raid the SWC. They're getting what they deserve...

 

[Slick Manager of Champs]

only in college football.....

-do you have a conference called the Big 12 that has ten members and another called Big 10 that has 14
-do you have a playoff for four teams but have 5 conferences with champions and there is still a chance that more than conference champ might not make the playoffs since a committee decides who gets in
-do you have conferences that pay no attention to geography and natural rivals and let money & politics decide the alignment. How else do you explain no conference games between Pitt-PSU, Oklahoma-Nebraska, Texas-Texas A&M

 

[Jpripper88]

I don't. The Big 12 is the competition. Also, remember the Big 12 started this whole expansion avalanche. When they were the Big 8, they decided to raid the SWC. They're getting what they deserve...

Huh? I want the B12 to work because otherwise we go to 4 16 team conferences and that would suck IMO. The B12 is 0 threat to the ACC. The other 4 conferences are not in any danger from the B12.

only in college football.....
-do you have conferences that pay no attention to geography and natural rivals and let money & politics decide the alignment. How else do you explain no conference games between Pitt-PSU, Oklahoma-Nebraska, Texas-Texas A&M

The NFL has set up some divisions that defy logic. The Dallas Cowboys are in the NFC East. The newest set up is better, but still has some funky alignments that bunk geography.

 

[Pitt79]

Huh? I want the B12 to work because otherwise we go to 4 16 team conferences and that would suck IMO. The B12 is 0 threat to the ACC. The other 4 conferences are not in any danger from the B12.

No, that would be good, the 4 champs would be the playoff teams, And really, 8 teams make the playoffs if you include the conference championship games, so I'm not crying for an SEC team that didn't win their division.

 

[Jpripper88]

No, that would be good, the 4 champs would be the playoff teams, And really, 8 teams make the playoffs if you include the conference championship games, so I'm not crying for an SEC team that didn't win their division.

The major conferences and most fans (who watch and follow the sport) disagree with you. The power programs most definitely disagree. It is just matter of fact that the best programs are aligned in the same divisions of conferences and to afford them less access would not make sense.

 

[pittmeister]

Huh? I want the B12 to work because otherwise we go to 4 16 team conferences and that would suck IMO. The B12 is 0 threat to the ACC. The other 4 conferences are not in any danger from the B12.


The NFL has set up some divisions that defy logic. The Dallas Cowboys are in the NFC East. The newest set up is better, but still has some funky alignments that bunk geography.

That's your opinion that a 16 team conference would suck. In my opinion it would bring uniformity and clarity to the to the playoff and bowl system:

1. The division winners would automatically make the playoffs. No voting by coaches or sports writers. It would be decided on the field.

2. This arrangement would absolutely force ND to join a conference.

3. The bowl games would exist for those not making the playoffs. The third place finisher of one division would play the third place finisher of and division in another conference, and so on...

As for the Big 12 not being a threat, things change. When you're in business and your competition is on the ropes, you put them away...

If Cincinnati joins the Big 12 and the Big 12 survives, they will become competitors for better recruits in Ohio. We have done very well in Ohio the last couple of years...Eliminating WVU will help in Ohio and Florida as well...

 

[Jpripper88]

That's your opinion that a 16 team conference would suck. In my opinion it would bring uniformity and clarity to the to the playoff and bowl system:

1. The division winners would automatically make the playoffs. No voting by coaches or sports writers. It would be decided on the field.

2. This arrangement would absolutely force ND to join a conference.

3. The bowl games would exist for those not making the playoffs. The third place finisher of one division would play the third place finisher of and division in another conference, and so on...

As for the Big 12 not being a threat, things change. When you're in business and your competition is on the ropes, you put them away...

If Cincinnati joins the Big 12 and the Big 12 survives, they will become competitors for better recruits in Ohio. We have done very well in Ohio the last couple of years...Eliminating WVU will help in Ohio and Florida as well...

I know it is my opinion 4 16 team conferences would suck. That is why I even said "IMO". That means "In My Opinion". However, the issue you raised is whether the B12 would be a threat/competition. The conference wouldn't be. They are full of weak programs and weak academic institutions without TV audiences. They just cannot produce the revenue or stability the other 4 conferences supply. I can buy the Pitt fan fear Cincy would then become more direct competition for Pitt. That certainly is reasonable for just our worries, but likely a very minimal impact, if any.

IF the B12 folds and we go to 4 conferences of 16 teams, at most, 2 current schools get left out. Highly doubtful WVU is one of them. Someone would essentially be faced with picking out of KSU, ISU, WVU from the B12 and other bottom feeder programs currently in P5s. With the way the Pac12 and Big12 is currently viewing BYU and their religious/non-PC aligned values, it seems very likely only ND would assume a place in a conference. WVU definitely won't be the lone school out on their ass in that scenario.

Also, the power programs are not going to agree to a setup where there is no chance for a playoff with both LSU & UA or OSU & Michigan or UT & OU being 2 of the 8 teams.

 

[pittdan77]

The NFL and MLB have both figured out that more playoff games bring more money and greater fan excitement. Any system that holds a four team playoff and doesn't allow for a couple wild cards from a pool of 70 odd teams is insanely limiting. Ohio State can absolutely feel jobbed for playing in a tougher conference than Oklahoma last year. Lost at the wrong time though. What about Stanford? They throttled the team Michigan State struggled to beat in the conference championship?

There's no reasonable way to defend how it works right now.

 

[Saboteur]

I was surprised that WVU would vote no toward Cincy. Both OU & TX drive the bus and if they don't want to expand it will be a no go on expansion. I can see a scenario where TX, TCU join the ACC and OK & OK State join the SEC. The rest of the schools could be left scrambling everyone seems to be running away from KU, KState, and Iowa ST.

WVU would have a hard time recruiting against UC.

 

[revampedpanthers]

You have expressed your opinion on this before, but now we found you don't really care about or follow NCAAF, so...

As someone who does follow and really like NCAAF as a whole, I want the best teams, not 4 "champs". Of course, the playoff will never be limited to that because the power brokers will never let that happen, since most of them are in the same conferences. I think more importantly in the conference realignment argument, I don't want 16 team conferences because 14 is already impersonal enough.

16 only works well if you are going to form pods. Otherwise you have a real long time between playing teams in the opposite division. Look at the current ACC, even if you eliminate the crossover game, which is great for Pitt, you still have only 2 games against the other 7 team division meaning you would play them every 3.5 years. Add another conference game and you can get to every 2.3 years which is about right. Go to 16 and you are talking about every 4 years or every 2.7 years.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Also, remember the Big 12 started this whole expansion avalanche. When they were the Big 8, they decided to raid the SWC. They're getting what they deserve...

That isn't really the way that it happened.

 

[topdecktiger]

The NFL and MLB have both figured out that more playoff games bring more money and greater fan excitement. Any system that holds a four team playoff and doesn't allow for a couple wild cards from a pool of 70 odd teams is insanely limiting.

It's not so much the number of teams, it's the direct path. The real money is the effect the playoffs have on the regular season. For example, let's just say the CFP adopts the 5+3 format (P5 champs + 3 at large bids). Well, with the division setups in the P5 leagues, you double or triple the number of games that affect the playoffs. Let's take a game like Duke vs. North Carolina. As it stands, that games really doesn't mean much nationally. At best, these teams could hope to win the conference and go to the Orange Bowl. Not much real interest aside from fans of the two teams. Now, if the ACC champ gets an automatic bid to the playoffs, Duke vs. North Carolina realistically affects the playoffs. All they have to do is win their division, and pull off an upset in the CCG, and they are in the playoffs. Imagine how much more valuable these regular season games become for ESPN and Fox when so many more teams have a guaranteed path to the CFP.

 

[mvk112]

Huh? I want the B12 to work because otherwise we go to 4 16 team conferences and that would suck IMO. The B12 is 0 threat to the ACC. The other 4 conferences are not in any danger from the B12.


The NFL has set up some divisions that defy logic. The Dallas Cowboys are in the NFC East. The newest set up is better, but still has some funky alignments that bunk geography.

The NFL tried to maintain rivalries though, hence Baltimore in North, Miami in East, and Indy in South instead if Baltimore in East, Miami in South, and Indy in North.

 

[mvk112]

It's going to be the 5+3 model sooner rather than later I think. The biggest obstacle is likely trying to get fans to travel for potentially 3 games.

Would fans travel to say, Los Angeles to play the PAC 12 champ, then to maybe New Orleans the next week for semifinals, then to the championship game in Dallas, Phoenix, Atlanta, or Miami?

 

[Pitt79]

The major conferences and most fans (who watch and follow the sport) disagree with you. The power programs most definitely disagree. It is just matter of fact that the best programs are aligned in the same divisions of conferences and to afford them less access would not make sense.

It would make total sense, all it would be would be making it like every other sport there is in the whole world. In fact, it would make all the other conferences get better, other teams get stronger and challenge the same old/same old that you favor so adamantly. If teams like Pitt could sell that they would have access to the final 4 playoff by winning a division and a championship game, they could get some of the better players that won't go there now and it would encourage more parity. It would be good for the game.

 

[Slick Manager of Champs]

It's going to be the 5+3 model sooner rather than later I think. The biggest obstacle is likely trying to get fans to travel for potentially 3 games.

Would fans travel to say, Los Angeles to play the PAC 12 champ, then to maybe New Orleans the next week for semifinals, then to the championship game in Dallas, Phoenix, Atlanta, or Miami?

Would need to change to an NFL model of home field advantage and only the championship would be a "bowl"

 

[mvk112]

Would need to change to an NFL model of home field advantage and only the championship would be a "bowl"

The complaints of how they determine which of the conference champions had to play on road the first game would be just as bad as we see today.

 

[Pitt79]

It's going to be the 5+3 model sooner rather than later I think. The biggest obstacle is likely trying to get fans to travel for potentially 3 games.

Would fans travel to say, Los Angeles to play the PAC 12 champ, then to maybe New Orleans the next week for semifinals, then to the championship game in Dallas, Phoenix, Atlanta, or Miami?

Why couldn't you seed them an give higher seeds home field advantage, problem solved, FULL STADIUMS EVERYWHERE... even in Pittsburgh! LOL. Only the final at a neutral field.

 

[Jpripper88]

It's going to be the 5+3 model sooner rather than later I think. The biggest obstacle is likely trying to get fans to travel for potentially 3 games.

Would fans travel to say, Los Angeles to play the PAC 12 champ, then to maybe New Orleans the next week for semifinals, then to the championship game in Dallas, Phoenix, Atlanta, or Miami?

As a fan who has done the current trifecta of Conference CG, semi, and NC, NCAA just doesn't care because all the tickets are sold via corporate sponsors. For fans it has actually been a pretty good thing in at least one way because the secondary market is much cheaper.