OT: Jung ho kang being investigated for sexual assault/rape

[Jpripper88]

I think everyone agrees that is obviously rape.
What isn't obvious is if she had a couple drinks, then they had sex. Is that rape?

And I also see your second post to me as well. Obviously no means no. My issue becomes what about when yes format mean yes. I don't really think it is fair to expect a male to make a decision based on the women's alcohol intake if she can consent. That cutoff is very blurry, and the current way we view these things puts the guy in a very tough spot, often when he may be inebriated too.

Agreed.

However, in response to Ski, meeting on a hookup app and going to a stranger's hotel room to "have drinks" is completely different than saying a girl wearing a skirt is "asking for it". Neither is asking for it, but one is clearly entering a situation that has expectations for the vast majority of folks and is extremely risky if there isn't any intention for that. Hell, in this situation a lot of that poor logic falls on the guy for inviting the girl. Kang shouldn't trust the girl in that situation.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

No. Dude. No. The intent is irrelevant. 100% irrelevant. If she went to the hotel and was drugged, she did not give consent. Whatever app she used to meet up with Kang does not matter.

But you are convicting him as if this is true. I am merely saying that if she went there, well I am guessing on BOTH PARTIES, there were some expectations. Maybe he was a lousy lay. Maybe he kicked her out after sex, and now she was pissed because he "used" her. I am just saying, people in those situations are getting together to discuss politics.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Agreed.

However, in response to Ski, meeting on a hookup app and going to a stranger's hotel room to "have drinks" is completely different than saying a girl wearing a skirt is "asking for it". Neither is asking for it, but one is clearly entering a situation that has expectations for the vast majority of folks and is extremely risky if there isn't any intention for that. Hell, in this situation a lot of that poor logic falls on the guy for inviting the girl. Kang shouldn't trust the girl in that situation.

Oh, no doubt there were bad decisions made on both parts.

 

[Pittguy1980]

Agreed.

However, in response to Ski, meeting on a hookup app and going to a stranger's hotel room to "have drinks" is completely different than saying a girl wearing a skirt is "asking for it". Neither is asking for it, but one is clearly entering a situation that has expectations for the vast majority of folks and is extremely risky if there isn't any intention for that. Hell, in this situation a lot of that poor logic falls on the guy for inviting the girl. Kang shouldn't trust the girl in that situation.

Yep..I said right away that it was dumb in his part, especially when you are a high profile athlete.

With that said, wanting to hook up with a random chick is simply being a guy.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

I am down the middle on this until everything comes out but....Doesn't the hospital legally have to report this if the rape kit comes out conclusive?

 

[pitt-girl]

No. Dude. No. The intent is irrelevant. 100% irrelevant. If she went to the hotel and was drugged, she did not give consent. Whatever app she used to meet up with Kang does not matter.

IMHO this will rest on if there were positive toxicology results and/or visible video evidence that she was unconscious (like the Vanderbilt case). Other than that, it will be a sticky wicket for both sides. I hope if Kang is innocent that he nor the Pirates reach any kind of settlement. Conversely if he is guilty, I hope he goes to prison. If a woman is drugged THERE CAN BE NO CONSENT. I don't care if she draped herself all over you naked, pleading for sex.

We spent a lot of time talking to our boys (and would have done the same if we had girls) about all of this before they left for college. We live in a litigious society that rightly has really clamped down on sexual assaults. You can't get yourself in any situation like this, ever. End of story.

 

[Ski11585]

IMHO this will rest on if there were positive toxicology results and/or visible video evidence that she was unconscious (like the Vanderbilt case). Other than that, it will be a sticky wicket for both sides. I hope if Kang is innocent that he nor the Pirates reach any kind of settlement. Conversely if he is guilty, I hope he goes to prison. If a woman is drugged THERE CAN BE NO CONSENT. I don't care if she draped herself all over you naked, pleading for sex.

We spent a lot of time talking to our boys (and would have done the same if we had girls) about all of this before they left for college. We live in a litigious society that rightly has really clamped down on sexual assaults. You can't get yourself in any situation like this, ever. End of story.

Yeah. It doesn't matter how "dtf" she may have been in the cab on the way there, if there's any sort of drugging there can't be consent.

And I get it. 100%. When alcohol gets involved things get really murky. I won't disagree with other posters in this regard at all. And I'm not afraid to admit I'm not sure how I would handle a situation like that trying to educate my own kids.

 

[pitt-girl]

Yeah. It doesn't matter how "dtf" she may have been in the cab on the way there, if there's any sort of drugging there can't be consent.

And I get it. 100%. When alcohol gets involved things get really murky. I won't disagree with other posters in this regard at all. And I'm not afraid to admit I'm not sure how I would handle a situation like that trying to educate my own kids.

Honestly - unless you're in a real relationship or with someone you know very well, don't have sex. ESPECIALLY if you or she had been drinking. Sounds awful, right? It's college! Common sense at some point has to prevail especially since the majority of kids "get it", right? Nope. You can't take that chance anymore because it can and does ruin lives.

 

[Pitt79]

If a woman is drugged THERE CAN BE NO CONSENT.

What if he says that he gave her no drugs, what is the PROOF that he did? His word should carry equal weight to hers.

 

[Pitt79]

Honestly - unless you're in a real relationship or with someone you know very well, don't have sex. ESPECIALLY if you or she had been drinking. Sounds awful, right? It's college! Common sense at some point has to prevail especially since the majority of kids "get it", right? Nope. You can't take that chance anymore because it can and does ruin lives.

WOW, some people might never have sex their entire lives under your guidelines! God I HATE modern America!

 

[pitt-girl]

What if he says that he gave her no drugs, what is the PROOF that he did? His word should carry equal weight to hers.

Good point. You're contenting that if her tox screen comes back positive, she could have purposely taken the drug herself to create this whole scenario?

 

[pitt-girl]

WOW, some people might never have sex their entire lives under your guidelines! God I HATE modern America!

Yeah, well, things change. Many of us used to drink and drive too. (And I'm not talking total inebriation.) I love that this new generation of kids rely on Uber.

 

[Pitt79]

Good point. You're contenting that if her tox screen comes back positive, she could have purposely taken the drug herself to create this whole scenario?

It's possible, unless somehow you can trace the drug to him, how do you know he gave it to her? Taking the drug herself could be potentially part of a scam.

 

[Pittguy1980]

Yeah, well, things change. Many of us used to drink and drive too. (And I'm not talking total inebriation.) I love that this new generation of kids rely on Uber.

There are still a lot of people that drink and drive though. As a society, we take that FAR too lightly.

Also, if two college kids that are both drunk, but still coherent hook up, is that double rape?

 

[Ski11585]

I read a lot of unsettling stuff on this board, but Pitt79's continual rape apologism and perpetual victim blaming is probably the most vile.

 

[Hailpitt]

I am waiting for more facts to come out before casting judgment on Kang. Obviously, if there is proof he drugged her then he goes to jail . Likewise hotel video of that evening should cast light on his and her action when entering/exiting the hotel and his room. It will be interesting to see what hotel cameras show ( recall Ray Rice--hotels have cameras everywhere) since it will show how she exited the hotel (Kang or someone carrying her or strolling out under her own power). Also, any lab workers/medical people on here. I would be interested to learn whether the "date rape" drug residue would still be in her system 2 days (when she went to the hospital) later (or can it be determined that she ingested the drug herself 2 days later).

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Yeah, well, things change. Many of us used to drink and drive too. (And I'm not talking total inebriation.) I love that this new generation of kids rely on Uber.

Unless you are Judge Ward. Whoops.

 

[pitt-girl]

I am waiting for more facts to come out before casting judgment on Kang. Obviously, if there is proof he drugged her then he goes to jail . Likewise hotel video of that evening should cast light on his and her action when entering/exiting the hotel and his room. It will be interesting to see what hotel cameras show ( recall Ray Rice--hotels have cameras everywhere) since it will show how she exited the hotel (Kang or someone carrying her or strolling out under her own power). Also, any lab workers/medical people on here. I would be interested to learn whether the "date rape" drug residue would still be in her system 2 days (when she went to the hospital) later (or can it be determined that she ingested the drug herself 2 days later).

I would also be curious if it has to be the date rape drug or really any drug taken in high quantity that would induce unconsciousness. I would assume that is yes and that would also include too much alcohol also.

 

[pitt-girl]

There are still a lot of people that drink and drive though. As a society, we take that FAR too lightly.

Also, if two college kids that are both drunk, but still coherent hook up, is that double rape?

That makes no sense.

 

[Pittguy1980]

That makes no sense.

How does that make no sense?

 

[Pitt79]

I read a lot of unsettling stuff on this board, but Pitt79's continual rape apologism and perpetual victim blaming is probably the most vile.

The worst is the ASSUMPTION OF GUILT aimed at every male, whether there is evidence or not. To me it's offensive and dangerous that some of you are willing to jail men and destroy their lives, based simply on any woman just saying, "HE did it". Let's make it that way, hope you have a son jailed because some girl friend got mad at him and made up a story.

 

[pitt-girl]

How does that make no sense?

How can a man rape a woman who is obviously raping the man or vice versa? It makes no sense. From a female perspective, if you're being raped it means you are not consenting to the act, but in this scenario she would be, right? I mean she's participating in the act.

 

[Ski11585]

The worst is the ASSUMPTION OF GUILT aimed at every male, whether there is evidence or not. To me it's offensive and dangerous that some of you are willing to jail men and destroy their lives, based simply on any woman just saying, "HE did it". Let's make it that way, hope you have a son jailed because some girl friend got mad at him and made up a story.

And yet, 100% of the time you assume the woman is lying. Not only is that evidence of your misogyny, but it flies in the face of what we know about rape.

 

[Pittguy1980]

How can a man rape a woman who is obviously raping the man or vice versa? It makes no sense. From a female perspective, if you're being raped it means you are not consenting to the act, but in this scenario she would be, right? I mean she's participating in the act.

She may have consented, but I have been told multiple times that alcohol impairment takes away the ability to give consent.

So what do you do in the instance both are drunk?

BTW, I'm not really directing this at you. I have been told though by others in the past in this instance the man is raping the woman in his case, and I find that to be a highly problematic view.

 

[Pitt79]

And yet, 100% of the time you assume the woman is lying. Not only is that evidence of your misogyny, but it flies in the face of what we know about rape.

I'm not assuming anything, I just don't want anybody convicted based solely on he said/she said.... PROVE IT. "What we know about rape" is not enough to convict some unlucky slob who just walked into a bad situation.

 

[Jpripper88]

Good point. You're contenting that if her tox screen comes back positive, she could have purposely taken the drug herself to create this whole scenario?

It seems far fetched, but not close to impossible if she is doing this for a money grab.

I read a lot of unsettling stuff on this board, but Pitt79's continual rape apologism and perpetual victim blaming is probably the most vile.

I don't think that is fair in relation to much of his questioning here. I hate to question the timing of her going for a rape kit or then filing a police report, but it does raise questions, especially when it deals with a situation that could very easily be a money grab.

Why shouldn't the man's word hold just as much weight as the woman's? I have had a couple friends who had crazy ex's or later embarrassed one night stands claim (one going to school/counselor and a couple others just spreading lies) rape only to recant it later. It doesn't happen as much as rape, but it certainly happens and it can be life altering for the guy, too.

 

[Pitt79]

And yet, 100% of the time you assume the woman is lying. Not only is that evidence of your misogyny, but it flies in the face of what we know about rape.

I'm not assuming anything, it has to be brought up in every case, the possibility that the woman is lying, because the 1st response by everyone is HE DID IT ROTTEN BASTARD, without even checking the evidence. The fact that people like you want the woman believed 100% of the time is evidence of your misandry. And even if "it flies in the face of everything we know about rape", so what, we should make it a MAJOR PRIORITY that keeping one innocent man out of jail, is worth letting some guilty go free. There has to be real evidence "SHE SAYS", is not evidence of wrong doing by itself.

 

[Pitt79]

Why shouldn't the man's word hold just as much weight as the woman's? I have had a couple friends who had crazy ex's or later embarrassed one night stands claim (one going to school/counselor and a couple others just spreading lies) rape only to recant it later. It doesn't happen as much as rape, but it certainly happens and it can be life altering for the guy, too.

EXACTLY THIS ^^^

I just hate the attitude some have of making the standard low to convict more guilty men, even saying "so what if a few innocent men are jailed as long as we get the bad guys" that's total BS.

 

[revampedpanthers]

She didn't have strange views. She played you and wanted to see what you would accept and still come back again. She asked you over for Netflix and Chill after a month of dating and then put up a stop sign to test you.

Both recruits and Ski are right on this. You don't meet someone on a hookup app at their hotel room by yourself. Come on. That still doesn't come close to justifying a rape, but it does mean that (at a minimum) the girl put herself in a terrible situation. And it certainly adds skepticism as to whether there really was a rape.

Thats the point I was trying to make. Its idiotic of a woman to meet up at his hotel like that. It doesn't mean he has the right to rape her but that still doesn't mean its a horrible decision on her part unless she wants to have sex with him. That judgement also gives me some question about her motives in a case like this. Again not saying it didn't happen or he had the right to do it.

 

[Jpripper88]

I doubt it is the same (if this is a false report it is far more it is a money grab than a confused and embarrassed virgin) thing, but the Occidental case Pittguy1980 is a really scary insight into some of these cases where the burden of proof and responsibility is completely on the accused, even when the evidence of the situation/consent is clearly on his side.

 

[Pittguy1980]

The ultimate and final answer here is to keep a rape suspect anonymous till conviction, just like the victim.

It would accomplish two things. One, it would make it far less likely that false claims would be made. False claims are made to hurt the accused, and without the publicity that goes away. Eliminating that would also make it far easier for legitimate victims to come forward.

Two, it protects the accused. Again, just being accused is damage enough. If kang was an everyday person, there is a decent chance he would have already lost his job. His reputation is already tarnished even if completely innocent.

Innocent until proven guilty...but that isn't how it works in the court of public opinion. Honestly, I can't really see any reason to oppose this idea. It protects everyone.

 

[Pittguy1980]

I doubt it is the same (if this is a false report it is far more it is a money grab than a confused and embarrassed virgin) thing, but the Occidental case Pittguy1980 is a really scary insight into some of these cases where the burden of proof and responsibility is completely on the accused, even when the evidence of the situation/consent is clearly on his side.

The scary thing about the occidental case too is he was never even charged. The police essentially said it was a garbage case. Yet he was still kicked out of school, blocked from attending other colleges, and really left his life in shambles.

The Stanford case, rape. If a girl is drugged, or passed out, rape. If a girl is physically beaten and forced, rape. If two people hook up at a party, get drunk, and go home and have sex, I'm sorry, but that is not rape.

 

[Pitt79]

I apologize in advance to all of you "Anti-Rape Culture Warriors" but IMO these crimes should have to be proven before they even name the suspect. The way they hide the accusers identity, the accused's identity should be hidden, so if it turns out that a crime can't be proven then the ALLEGED attacker's life/reputation is held harmless.

 

[levance2]

I really don't understand how any reasonable evidence could have come from an exam two days later and a police report however many days after that. Regardless of the immense emotional and psychological trauma of an actual assault, all girls need to be educated that these incidents need to be reported and investigated immediately.

I think it seems pretty questionable that so much info has been published, yet no charges filed. What more could the Chicago PD be doing at this point? How long does it take to pull security footage?