OT: Liberty and Wichita State

[Sean Miller Fan]

For the expansionistas out there, this is all we get. Liberty, which has been talking about moving up for years is finally doing it even though the Sun Belt rejected them and they'll have to play as an Independent.

As for Wichita State, they conducted a feasibility study on restarting their football program and placing in D1-A. I believe Wichita State is doing this in part, to upgrade basketball, hoping to eventually get an all sports invite to the Mountain West, American, or maybe even a post-apocalyptic Big 12.

Liberty is interesting to me because as you know, its an evangelical Christian school, which would mean 3 of the 6 independents will be church-affiated. I wonder if Liberty will try to market their program to evangelical churches and Christians and become the "Evangelical BYU."

Lastly, after a 2 year absence, UAB football is back and will continue to play in CUSA

 

[Las Panteras]

interesting. I dont see how the state of Kansas could support three football programs.......but their basketball and baseball are big time, with a reasonable TV market i guess.

 

[JD1976]

For the expansionistas out there, this is all we get. Liberty, which has been talking about moving up for years is finally doing it even though the Sun Belt rejected them and they'll have to play as an Independent.

As for Wichita State, they conducted a feasibility study on restarting their football program and placing in D1-A. I believe Wichita State is doing this in part, to upgrade basketball, hoping to eventually get an all sports invite to the Mountain West, American, or maybe even a post-apocalyptic Big 12.

Liberty is interesting to me because as you know, its an evangelical Christian school, which would mean 3 of the 6 independents will be church-affiated. I wonder if Liberty will try to market their program to evangelical churches and Christians and become the "Evangelical BYU."

Lastly, after a 2 year absence, UAB football is back and will continue to play in CUSA

Liberty could easily become the BYU of the East. Their athletic facilities are really nice and state of the art and they are only going to get nicer. The late Jerry Falwell was very big on athletics and his dream was for his football program to one day line up against Notre Dame.

 

[Rockyhound]

For the expansionistas out there, this is all we get. Liberty, which has been talking about moving up for years is finally doing it even though the Sun Belt rejected them and they'll have to play as an Independent.

As for Wichita State, they conducted a feasibility study on restarting their football program and placing in D1-A. I believe Wichita State is doing this in part, to upgrade basketball, hoping to eventually get an all sports invite to the Mountain West, American, or maybe even a post-apocalyptic Big 12.

Liberty is interesting to me because as you know, its an evangelical Christian school, which would mean 3 of the 6 independents will be church-affiated. I wonder if Liberty will try to market their program to evangelical churches and Christians and become the "Evangelical BYU."

Lastly, after a 2 year absence, UAB football is back and will continue to play in CUSA

I think it was Stewart Mandel and Bruce Feldman's podcast The Audible they had a guest on to talk about the Baylor mess. The guest mentioned that Liberty hired Baylor's disgraced AD and he speculated that that might cost Liberty a shot at a place like the Sunbelt.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

For the expansionistas out there, this is all we get. Liberty, which has been talking about moving up for years is finally doing it even though the Sun Belt rejected them and they'll have to play as an Independent.

As for Wichita State, they conducted a feasibility study on restarting their football program and placing in D1-A. I believe Wichita State is doing this in part, to upgrade basketball, hoping to eventually get an all sports invite to the Mountain West, American, or maybe even a post-apocalyptic Big 12.

Liberty is interesting to me because as you know, its an evangelical Christian school, which would mean 3 of the 6 independents will be church-affiated. I wonder if Liberty will try to market their program to evangelical churches and Christians and become the "Evangelical BYU."

Lastly, after a 2 year absence, UAB football is back and will continue to play in CUSA

Liberty could easily become the BYU of the East. Their athletic facilities are really nice and state of the art and they are only going to get nicer. The late Jerry Falwell was very big on athletics and his dream was for his football program to one day line up against Notre Dame.

Liberty has 0 football tradition and it will be hard to start 1 as an independent. They have a long road to becoming "BYU of the East."

I know when BYU comes to your town, they go to a Mormom church the night before and pretty much all the Mormons come out to the game. Its a big deal. It would be interesting if Liberty marketed to local Evangelical churches when Liberty is in town.

 

[OriginalEther]

The guest mentioned that Liberty hired Baylor's disgraced AD and he speculated that that might cost Liberty a shot at a place like the Sunbelt.

Heh.....didnt know that. how fitting.
And I'm somehow able to lose respect for religious institutions more and more each day.

 

[wicker]

Penn State probably already lining them up

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

Heh.....didnt know that. how fitting.
And I'm somehow able to lose respect for religious institutions more and more each day.

How is that fitting?

 

[OriginalEther]

How is that fitting?

That a phony "Christian" place would hire a unethical sleaze that established a rape culture, and in the hopes of winning and money.

Nothing new for these guys.
As the wise prophet James Hetfield once said, "Bow to Leper Mesiah"

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

That a phony "Christian" place would hire a unethical sleaze that established a rape culture, and in the hopes of winning and money.

Nothing new for these guys.
As the wise prophet James Hetfield once said, "Bow to Leper Mesiah"

How are they phony "Christian "?

 

[OriginalEther]

How are they phony "Christian "?

If you have to ask, considering that they just hired Baylors ex AD, then you'll never know.
My experience is that the majority of people who go out of their way to advertise being Christian don't come remotely close to practicing what they preach.
See Todd Graham for an example that's relevant to Pitt and is not an anecdotal account.

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

If you have to ask, considering that they just hired Baylors ex AD, then you'll never know.
My experience is that the majority of people who go out of their way to advertise being Christian don't come remotely close to practicing what they preach.
See Todd Graham for an example that's relevant to Pitt and is not an anecdotal account.

You answer does not connect with what you originally stated.

My experience with people who say such things about Christians is that they are bigots.

Because I said so. Now there.

 

[perchance]

I do not like to get into religious combat: I am not a zealot. But perhaps you should refer to Matthew 23:27 before labeling someone a bigot.
Declaring oneself a Christian does not automatically sanctify you. A Christian follows Christ's teaching ("I am the Way") and attempts to act as would Christ. Sadly,the majority of Americans claiming Christianity act as enemies of Christ's gospel and only for their own materialistic, selfish interests; thus, "whited sepulchres."

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

I do not like to get into religious combat: I am not a zealot. But perhaps you should refer to Matthew 23:27 before labeling someone a bigot.
Declaring oneself a Christian does not automatically sanctify you. A Christian follows Christ's teaching ("I am the Way") and attempts to act as would Christ. Sadly,the majority of Americans claiming Christianity act as enemies of Christ's gospel and only for their own materialistic, selfish interests; thus, "whited sepulchres."

Read what I wrote again.

But also, what in what I said declares me sanctified?

But it seems you took a lot more words to say to me what I was saying to the other person.

 

[perchance]

The "you" was a general you, not specific to you personally.
Simply: Criticizing persons or institutions who proclaim themselves Christian, yet act in an unchristian manner is not bigotry. It is exposing hypocrisy. The poster was calling Liberty U and other Psuedo-Christians hypocrites. He was not attacking Christians or Christianity.

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

The "you" was a general you, not specific to you personally.
Simply: Criticizing persons or institutions who proclaim themselves Christian, yet act in an unchristian manner is not bigotry. It is exposing hypocrisy. The poster was calling Liberty U and other Psuedo-Christians hypocrites. He was not attacking Christians or Christianity.

I get that. But what hypocrisy did he expose?

He certainly did criticize.

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

The "you" was a general you, not specific to you personally.
Simply: Criticizing persons or institutions who proclaim themselves Christian, yet act in an unchristian manner is not bigotry. It is exposing hypocrisy. The poster was calling Liberty U and other Psuedo-Christians hypocrites. He was not attacking Christians or Christianity.

Also whether your "you" was to me or to "everyone", I think maybe you should try to see the context in what I wrote.

The problem is not that it might be true, but it was a wild unsupported criticism.

Try reading it again. If you think I am wrong and you really feel that I am wrong as a Christian, feel free to call me and we can discuss.

 

[michnittlion]

interesting. I dont see how the state of Kansas could support three football programs.......but their basketball and baseball are big time, with a reasonable TV market i guess.

Wichita State should definitely be FCS football if they re-start football --- the challenge there is the natural conference for them is the Missouri Valley Football Conference. Which has 4 schools that are members of the Missouri Valley Conference, the conference they'd be theoretically pulling all their other sports out of.

Politics, politics ........

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

interesting. I dont see how the state of Kansas could support three football programs.......but their basketball and baseball are big time, with a reasonable TV market i guess.

Wichita State should definitely be FCS football if they re-start football --- the challenge there is the natural conference for them is the Missouri Valley Football Conference. Which has 4 schools that are members of the Missouri Valley Conference, the conference they'd be theoretically pulling all their other sports out of.

Politics, politics ........

There would be really no point in Wichita starting a 1AA team from scratch. They dont need 1AA football. If they go 1A, I am sure the intention is to upgrade basketball by landing in the American, MWC, or a watered down B12 once Texas and OU leave. I doubt they are thinking of upgrading to join the MAC or CUSA.

 

[pittdan77]

Wichita State should definitely be FCS football if they re-start football --- the challenge there is the natural conference for them is the Missouri Valley Football Conference. Which has 4 schools that are members of the Missouri Valley Conference, the conference they'd be theoretically pulling all their other sports out of.

Politics, politics ........

While I agree, the Big 12 is always looking. On the off chance Kansas leaves for the B1G, for instance, there would be more room for them in a depleted Big 12 (as it slips to "other five" status. There's really no reason to not give it a shot.

 

[Jpripper88]

Also whether your "you" was to me or to "everyone", I think maybe you should try to see the context in what I wrote.

The problem is not that it might be true, but it was a wild unsupported criticism.

Try reading it again. If you think I am wrong and you really feel that I am wrong as a Christian, feel free to call me and we can discuss.

The support is that they hired a man who (at another "Christian" University) established an abhorrent (certainly not "Christ like") culture where rape was apologized and covered up, for the sake of profits.

 

[Jpripper88]

While I agree, the Big 12 is always looking. On the off chance Kansas leaves for the B1G, for instance, there would be more room for them in a depleted Big 12 (as it slips to "other five" status. There's really no reason to not give it a shot.

Is there a lot of value in standing up a football program in the hopes you get inclusion as a G5? How valuable is that? Especially considering they have essentially no shot to every be very good, even for the G5.

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

The support is that they hired a man who (at another "Christian" University) established an abhorrent (certainly not "Christ like") culture where rape was apologized and covered up, for the sake of profits.

You cited that.

But you said it is typical of this university. What else can you cite?

Please do your best to follow what I said and not make up your own values as you try to prove your lost point.

 

[Jpripper88]

You cited that.

But you said it is typical of this university. What else can you cite?

Please do your best to follow what I said and not make up your own values as you try to prove your lost point.

I didn't cite anything. I was pointing out the supporting information the poster provided.

He said it was "nothing new for these guys" after referencing "a phony 'Christian' place". He did not say "it is typical of this (Liberty) university". Obviously Baylor has a long history of operating in a way, which is abhorrently opposite of Christian (or just basic decency) values they otherwise preach. Liberty is picking up someone proven to be a key cog in that culture. Notre Dame has done the same many times over, including with Brian Kelly. Obviously Liberty (as a "University") elicits a lot of ill will just because of Jerry Falwell, who most would agree is a charlatan, proven liar, racist, and anti-Semite. In addition, they are also largely regarded as a disguised "non-profit" with (at best) a loose focus on real education and instead a focus on revenue and indoctrination.

Please do your best to follow what was actually said and who said it and not make up your own quotes and mis-attach them, as you try to disprove a reasonable statement.

I assume you have some connection that precludes you from seeing the hypocrisy involved in "Christian Universities" building, and hiring people who built, systemic cultures that willfully allowed and covered up numerous rapes and assaults. If the values of Christ are to be the beacon, you don't even contemplate either for a second.

As a Christian and a husband to a different Christian based University graduate (and medical professional) I find the behavior at Baylor disgusting and extend that disgust to any other University, which would choose the people who created and fostered that culture as their new leaders. It is unbelievably out of line with their supposed principles.

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

I didn't cite anything. I was pointing out the supporting information the poster provided.

He said it was "nothing new for these guys" after referencing "a phony 'Christian' place". He did not say "it is typical of this (Liberty) university". Obviously Baylor has a long history of operating in a way, which is abhorrently opposite of Christian (or just basic decency) values they otherwise preach. Liberty is picking up someone proven to be a key cog in that culture. Notre Dame has done the same many times over, including with Brian Kelly. Obviously Liberty (as a "University") elicits a lot of ill will just because of Jerry Falwell, who most would agree is a charlatan, proven liar, racist, and anti-Semite. In addition, they are also largely regarded as a disguised "non-profit" with (at best) a loose focus on real education and instead a focus on revenue and indoctrination.

Please do your best to follow what was actually said and who said it and not make up your own quotes and mis-attach them, as you try to disprove a reasonable statement.

I assume you have some connection that precludes you from seeing the hypocrisy involved in "Christian Universities" building, and hiring people who built, systemic cultures that willfully allowed and covered up numerous rapes and assaults. If the values of Christ are to be the beacon, you don't even contemplate either for a second.

As a Christian and a husband to a different Christian based University graduate (and medical professional) I find the behavior at Baylor disgusting and extend that disgust to any other University, which would choose the people who created and fostered that culture as their new leaders. It is unbelievably out of line with their supposed principles.

You are exactly wrong.

That is not the issue. But you also drop a bunch of wild accusations with only scant knowledge. But by your standard I can call you anything I want and you cannot argue it.

And I don't know what being a Christian and your wife's university have to do with not approving of rape culture.

 

[Jpripper88]

You are exactly wrong.

That is not the issue. But you also drop a bunch of wild accusations with only scant knowledge. But by your standard I can call you anything I want and you cannot argue it.

And I don't know what being a Christian and your wife's university have to do with not approving of rape culture.

I am exactly wrong about what? Your inability to see the obvious hypocrisy when Universities, which laud themselves as places guided by Christian principles act in object difference to those principles? That seems pretty clear. Or was I just wrong in my guess that some sort of connection clouded your inability to see and acknowledge that hypocrisy.

I didn't drop any wild accusations. I didn't drop a single accusation, which is new or unfounded.

It has to do with finding it disgusting some businesses, which do not operate in line with their stated purposes, sell themselves as "Christian Universities" as a guise to increase revenue. It casts Christians and any Christian affiliated Universities in a bad light. No different than the Catholic Church covering up rape for years set a shadow over the entire system and congregations, even if the bad actors were relatively few among them. And, I don't think you need to be a Christian to find that deplorable. I do imagine almost anyone who doesn't and can't see the hypocrisy is a "Christian" who is, at best, very blind and in denial.

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

I am exactly wrong about what? Your inability to see the obvious hypocrisy when Universities, which laud themselves as places guided by Christian principles act in object difference to those principles? That seems pretty clear. Or was I just wrong in my guess that some sort of connection clouded your inability to see and acknowledge that hypocrisy.

I didn't drop any wild accusations. I didn't drop a single accusation, which is new or unfounded.

It has to do with finding it disgusting some businesses, which do not operate in line with their stated purposes, sell themselves as "Christian Universities" as a guise to increase revenue. It casts Christians and any Christian affiliated Universities in a bad light. No different than the Catholic Church covering up rape for years set a shadow over the entire system and congregations, even if the bad actors were relatively few among them. And, I don't think you need to be a Christian to find that deplorable. I do imagine almost anyone who doesn't and can't see the hypocrisy is a "Christian" who is, at best, very blind and in denial.

You think you are acting as Christian with your words and tone here?

You are accusing a whole lot of anonymous "Christian" universities of being hypocrites. So yes, such accusing would qualify as an accusation. Even when you do not aim it at any specific. Which is even worse because it essentially indicts every "Christian" university.

So you should start citing examples that attest to this systemic hypocrisy or you should not say anything. Start naming universities and their misdeeds. Do it. Do not throw out blanket statements to continue to support your biased view.

But also remember, there is a difference between people failing and universities supporting evil doings. Even still you are wrong just to say what you say without supporting evidence and specifically targeting those who have done wrong.

Additionally, if you do not agree with someone it does not make them evil. Unless of course you accept that those who do not agree with you can brand you as evil.

As well, consider what value forgiveness has in your Christian worldview. Not momentary petty forgiveness, but genuine heart-changing forgiveness.

Sure, you will find those who will pat you on the back because you make broad statements that also support their unsubstantiated feelings. But in the end, you are baseless in your claims. You would have made more sense to point the hypocrisy finger back at yourself.

 

[Jpripper88]

You think you are acting as Christian with your words and tone here?

You are accusing a whole lot of anonymous "Christian" universities of being hypocrites. So yes, such accusing would qualify as an accusation. Even when you do not aim it at any specific. Which is even worse because it essentially indicts every "Christian" university.

So you should start citing examples that attest to this systemic hypocrisy or you should not say anything. Start naming universities and their misdeeds. Do it. Do not throw out blanket statements to continue to support your biased view.

But also remember, there is a difference between people failing and universities supporting evil doings. Even still you are wrong just to say what you say without supporting evidence and specifically targeting those who have done wrong.

Additionally, if you do not agree with someone it does not make them evil. Unless of course you accept that those who do not agree with you can brand you as evil.

As well, consider what value forgiveness has in your Christian worldview. Not momentary petty forgiveness, but genuine heart-changing forgiveness.

Sure, you will find those who will pat you on the back because you make broad statements that also support their unsubstantiated feelings. But in the end, you are baseless in your claims. You would have made more sense to point the hypocrisy finger back at yourself.

What? How is pointing out hypocrisy a problem or not being a Christian?

Baylor had a clear culture of overlooking and covering up a murder, numerous rapes, and arrests in order to preserve their football program. Their AD was one of the leaders of that effort. This isn't up for debate. The evidence is all out there. You can choose to ignore it, but just because I am not going to link the text messages or go over every case, doesn't lessen the fact it happened. Now a new school hired this person, who, over years, chose to create and sustain this abhorrent culture. He didn't make a mistake or a misjudgement. This went all the way to the President of the Unviersity, so it wasn't just a rogue coach or AD or team. This school claims to be founded on Christian values, yet they have this systemic culture problem that reaches from trainers to the University President. How much more systemic do you need? Baylor literally accepted rapists and then covered up their further rapes, so it didn't hurt their football program.

I never called anyone evil. You aren't very good at quoting people. I'd work on that before critiquing anyone else.

It is clear you are completely ignorant on the subject or biased to the point of denial, much like the folks who deny Paterno or Sandusky's responsibility/crimes. That is your choice, but it is clear. There is no point to engage with you if you can't even acknowledge the Baylor situation as a prolonged systemic hypocrisy.

 

[topdecktiger]

What? How is pointing out hypocrisy a problem or not being a Christian?

I can tell you what the other poster is trying to get at. He's just not articulating it. There are a couple of competing viewpoints in Christian thinking. Some Christians take the idea of forgiveness farther than others. There are some Christians who would say the ex-Baylor AD deserves forgiveness and a second chance. (There are several stories in the Bible where Jesus accepted & forgave people who did some pretty bad things, and was criticized for doing so.) So, I'm sure some Christians, particularly at the university, would argue that's what they are doing by hiring the AD.

In my opinion, I take the opposite view, that giving a guy like this a second chance is a manipulation of that tenet.

And then of course, there is the third option, that there isn't anything philosophical about this at all, and it's just a school taking the quickest, easiest path they can for success in athletics.

My point is, not so much Liberty in particular. I'd be skeptical of the motives for this hire. I also think it's going over the line to label this completely hypocritical, given the issues I mentioned in the first paragraph.

 

[upitt33]

Liberty could easily become the BYU of the East. Their athletic facilities are really nice and state of the art and they are only going to get nicer. The late Jerry Falwell was very big on athletics and his dream was for his football program to one day line up against Notre Dame.

Did you say Jerry Fartwell?

 

[pittdan77]

Is there a lot of value in standing up a football program in the hopes you get inclusion as a G5? How valuable is that? Especially considering they have essentially no shot to every be very good, even for the G5.

I really don't know the answer to that. I can't say I know much about Wichita State other than they seem to very well in the sports they do compete in. Football is super saturated in that part of the world. There are a ton of lower NCAA and NAIA programs so maybe they feel they can offer a product someone will care about?

 

[levance2]

This thread jumped the shark in ways I could not have predicted.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Is there a lot of value in standing up a football program in the hopes you get inclusion as a G5? How valuable is that? Especially considering they have essentially no shot to every be very good, even for the G5.

I really don't know the answer to that. I can't say I know much about Wichita State other than they seem to very well in the sports they do compete in. Football is super saturated in that part of the world. There are a ton of lower NCAA and NAIA programs so maybe they feel they can offer a product someone will care about?

Being that there are a bunch of 1AA teams who want to move up (JMU, Sam Houston St, Jax St, ND St) but dont have conferences to join, I wonder if the 3 independents (Liberty, NM St, UMass, not including ND, Army, and BYU) will get together and invite 5 1AA schools so they can form a football-only league as kind of a holding area until another league comes calling.

 

[ncyajleel]

The Lord works in mysterious ways!

This thread jumped the shark in ways I could not have predicted.

 

[pittdan77]

Being that there are a bunch of 1AA teams who want to move up (JMU, Sam Houston St, Jax St, ND St) but dont have conferences to join, I wonder if the 3 independents (Liberty, NM St, UMass, not including ND, Army, and BYU) will get together and invite 5 1AA schools so they can form a football-only league as kind of a holding area until another league comes calling.

I see where you're going there but that would be an aberration that makes Big 12 travel miles seem kind of okay.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Being that there are a bunch of 1AA teams who want to move up (JMU, Sam Houston St, Jax St, ND St) but dont have conferences to join, I wonder if the 3 independents (Liberty, NM St, UMass, not including ND, Army, and BYU) will get together and invite 5 1AA schools so they can form a football-only league as kind of a holding area until another league comes calling.

I see where you're going there but that would be an aberration that makes Big 12 travel miles seem kind of okay.

I agree but its going to be tough for those teams to get games and they'll have to wind up scheduling each other anyway. They'd basically be independents but under a conference banner. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens and it would be an unintended consequence of not allowing teams to move up without a conference.

 

[Jpripper88]

I can tell you what the other poster is trying to get at. He's just not articulating it. There are a couple of competing viewpoints in Christian thinking. Some Christians take the idea of forgiveness farther than others. There are some Christians who would say the ex-Baylor AD deserves forgiveness and a second chance. (There are several stories in the Bible where Jesus accepted & forgave people who did some pretty bad things, and was criticized for doing so.) So, I'm sure some Christians, particularly at the university, would argue that's what they are doing by hiring the AD.

In my opinion, I take the opposite view, that giving a guy like this a second chance is a manipulation of that tenet.

And then of course, there is the third option, that there isn't anything philosophical about this at all, and it's just a school taking the quickest, easiest path they can for success in athletics.

My point is, not so much Liberty in particular. I'd be skeptical of the motives for this hire. I also think it's going over the line to label this completely hypocritical, given the issues I mentioned in the first paragraph.

Fair points. And I can agree on the extrapolation to Liberty. However, if someone can legitimately look at what has happened at Baylor University and not see the hypocrisy, which went all the way to the University President, so not just athletics, then I can't take that person seriously.

 

[pittdan77]

I agree but its going to be tough for those teams to get games and they'll have to wind up scheduling each other anyway. They'd basically be independents but under a conference banner. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens and it would be an unintended consequence of not allowing teams to move up without a conference.

It will never happen but I would enjoy "relegation" type games at the end of the year. Maybe Liberty gets a crack at Wake or Rutgers? Would certainly allow them a chance to prove themselves.