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OT: The forgotten PENS

NCanton Panther

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Sep 22, 2001
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I can’t recall the last Pens post on here, seems like it’s been a while.

I guess that’s understandable given the current losing streak, getting blown out by Florida yesterday and falling further and further from a playoff spot.

I’ve never been one for completely blowing it up anytime over the last few years but it is now obviously at that point. Never a good sign when they are so bad that no one is even discussing them.
 
I can’t recall the last Pens post on here, seems like it’s been a while.

I guess that’s understandable given the current losing streak, getting blown out by Florida yesterday and falling further and further from a playoff spot.

I’ve never been one for completely blowing it up anytime over the last few years but it is now obviously at that point. Never a good sign when they are so bad that no one is even discussing them.
Can we do this with the Pirates this year?
 
Time to blow it up. Jake is hurt......Depending upon the severity that may make it hard to get any trade value ...

If they do blow it up and go for the rebuild will be interesting to see if Sid wants to be a part of that process. I cant see him wanting to play on a team that has zero chance of making the playoffs for several years. They may have to move him as well as a result
 
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I was thinking the same thing this morning when I logged on to the Lair. I expected to see a Pen's post but was surprised to see none, until this one. i know that Recruits posted all the time about the Pens, but he has not been on for some time.

Really surprised to see that no assistants have been fired yet, like Reardon. He is the power play guru, right?

I agree that it is time to blow it up. No sense in postponing the inevitable. I would look to move as many folks as you can including the following, assuming that the no-trade clauses are waived where applicable.
*Karlson
*Jake
*Smith
*Rakell
*Rust
*Eller (assuming that you can get something for him)
*Graves (assuming that you can get something for him)
*O'Connor
*Joseph
*Carter (don't think that anyone would take him)

Pettersson is an interesting prospect for a trade. He is a good defenseman and would certainly bring a fair return value. He may bring the best return beside Jake. Not sure how much time he has left on his contract.

I would trade Geno too, but I'm not sure that what you would get in return would be worth the wrath that you would incur from Letang and Crosby, plus he is still a fan favorite, I think.
 
I’ve never been one for completely blowing it up anytime over the last few years but it is now obviously at that point. Never a good sign when they are so bad that no one is even discussing them.
It was time 2 years ago after they lost 3 in a row, for the second year in a row, to blow another 1st round playoff series.

They've painted themselves into a terrible corner with this roster.
 
Well the check was due in 2020 and Pens have failed to pay it off and now here they are. Guentzel being hurt is just perfect. I totally agree with Zelda, I don't know how Sullivan is surviving this.

If they lose tonight...........

People also have to understand............the Pens don't have their 1st rd pick this year unless they can pull off a trade to get one. But if they don't make the playoffs, so they are technically in the lottery. Now unless they completely tank, they won't get a top 3 pick (or shot at it) but right now they stand at the 14th overall pick, which is where they drafted last year. San Jose will get their pick.
 
It was time 2 years ago after they lost 3 in a row, for the second year in a row, to blow another 1st round playoff series.

They've painted themselves into a terrible corner with this roster.
Well they have, but partly it is the coach who refuses to change, playing his fast, small ball, turn the other cheek where now teams can just pound them. I mean, they need a Tortorella. Seriously. Not just someone to come in and kick some ass, but make it uncomfortable enough that some of these guys with no trade clauses are willing to waive them.
 
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I was thinking the same thing this morning when I logged on to the Lair. I expected to see a Pen's post but was surprised to see none, until this one. i know that Recruits posted all the time about the Pens, but he has not been on for some time.

Really surprised to see that no assistants have been fired yet, like Reardon. He is the power play guru, right?

I agree that it is time to blow it up. No sense in postponing the inevitable. I would look to move as many folks as you can including the following, assuming that the no-trade clauses are waived where applicable.
*Karlson
*Jake
*Smith
*Rakell
*Rust
*Eller (assuming that you can get something for him)
*Graves (assuming that you can get something for him)
*O'Connor
*Joseph
*Carter (don't think that anyone would take him)

Pettersson is an interesting prospect for a trade. He is a good defenseman and would certainly bring a fair return value. He may bring the best return beside Jake. Not sure how much time he has left on his contract.

I would trade Geno too, but I'm not sure that what you would get in return would be worth the wrath that you would incur from Letang and Crosby, plus he is still a fan favorite, I think.
Quite honestly Im not sure a coaching staff change is going to make much difference. Is it going to make Geno play better, Letang and others stop making dumb careless plays, or make them faster and tougher?

The biggest question is as I said in my earlier post, when you blow it up, what does Sid do? I seriously doubt hed want to stick around for his last 3-5 years through a rebuild. So it would seem if you blow it all up, hed be part of the process and would fetch a haul. Dude is still elite and has at a minimum 3 years left playing at a high level. I would think hed jump at the chance to win a few more cups as he has zero chance here.
 
Well they have, but partly it is the coach who refuses to change, playing his fast, small ball, turn the other cheek where now teams can just pound them. I mean, they need a Tortorella. Seriously. Not just someone to come in and kick some ass, but make it uncomfortable enough that some of these guys with no trade clauses are willing to waive them.
Im fine with dumping Sully but I honestly dont think that will change much. Aside from Sid and Jake, this team lacks talent and grit. Cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
 
they are painful to watch, that's what sucks. just absolutely terrible, slow, boring, and soft. if they were slow and tough then so be it but they are slow, old and just hate to say it but really soft. wont fight, wont stick up for anyone, wont clear anyone out, just always getting bullied, both before and after the whistle.
 
Quite honestly Im not sure a coaching staff change is going to make much difference. Is it going to make Geno play better, Letang and others stop making dumb careless plays, or make them faster and tougher?

The biggest question is as I said in my earlier post, when you blow it up, what does Sid do? I seriously doubt hed want to stick around for his last 3-5 years through a rebuild. So it would seem if you blow it all up, hed be part of the process and would fetch a haul. Dude is still elite and has at a minimum 3 years left playing at a high level. I would think hed jump at the chance to win a few more cups as he has zero chance here.
You know....Sid's an all time great, #2 Penguin of all time, but he ain't going to play forever. The franchise has to move on. I am fine with trading him sooner than later to facilitate the rebuild. Because it might be good for both sides.

Brady was traded. Gretzky. Jordan played for 2 different franchises. Lebron 3. Trottier won 4 cups with the Isles, 2 here. Coffey won with Edmonton and the Pens. Etc...etc....
 
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Im fine with dumping Sully but I honestly dont think that will change much. Aside from Sid and Jake, this team lacks talent and grit. Cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
Yes. But. When your coach has you playing "the right way" as in 2017 and they just can't do it anymore and he refuses to say, trap. Trap and counter instead of just attack, attack, attack.....you might get different results. I just know nothing has changed with this same style aside from the players getting older. It's not working. So yeah, the coach who either won't change or can't his players to change, well that relationship needs terminated.
 
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Well the check was due in 2020 and Pens have failed to pay it off and now here they are. Guentzel being hurt is just perfect. I totally agree with Zelda, I don't know how Sullivan is surviving this.

If they lose tonight...........

People also have to understand............the Pens don't have their 1st rd pick this year unless they can pull off a trade to get one. But if they don't make the playoffs, so they are technically in the lottery. Now unless they completely tank, they won't get a top 3 pick (or shot at it) but right now they stand at the 14th overall pick, which is where they drafted last year. San Jose will get their pick.
Where do we need to finish to get our pick back from San Jose this year?
Thanks
 
They should have done this two years ago when Letang & Malkin were free agents. I believe if we miss the playoffs we keep the pick but if we make it the pick goes to San Jose. Dubas first trade and it looks awful.
 
This will be unpopular…this isn’t a good hockey city. Hell, it really isn’t a great sports city IMO. It has oneof the most fair weather and spoiled fanbases I have ever encountered.

The penguins attendance goes in the tank if they aren’t an elite team. The Steelers immediately start losing attendance if they aren’t a Super Bowl contender. Yes the pirates suck, but even in the best of times people don’t show up for April and may games or September games. Pitt basketball is also a fine example of how attendance fell off a cliff at the end of Jamie’s tenure for a program that went go the tourney 3 of 4 years.

Anytime I hear about how great Pittsburgh fans are I want to puke. Every town has front runners, but Pittsburgh takes it to a whole new level, and the amount of success the penguins and Steelers have had has spoiled the city rotten
 
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Where do we need to finish to get our pick back from San Jose this year?
Thanks
They should have done this two years ago when Letang & Malkin were free agents. I believe if we miss the playoffs we keep the pick but if we make it the pick goes to San Jose. Dubas first trade and it looks awful.
The 2024 1st Round draft pick that the Pens gave San Jose is "Top 10 Conditional" meaning that if the pick ends up in the Top 10, the Pens have the option of keeping the 2024 pick and giving San Jose their 2025 1st Round pick instead ...... the Pens could end up out of the bottom 10 and still get a Top 10 pick in the draft through the lottery where a team can move up at most 10 places in the draft, so if we remain the 14th pick at the end of the season but win the 1st or second pick in the lottery we could move up as far as the 4th or 5th pick in the draft and keep that pick this year ...... the 16 non-playoff teams are in the lottery but only the bottom 11 (worst teams in the standings) have a chance at the number 1 pick because of the rule you can only move up 10 spots at most.
 
they are painful to watch, that's what sucks. just absolutely terrible, slow, boring, and soft. if they were slow and tough then so be it but they are slow, old and just hate to say it but really soft. wont fight, wont stick up for anyone, wont clear anyone out, just always getting bullied, both before and after the whistle.
Really pi$$ed last night that no one other than the usual teammates stood up for Jake after he got hit. It was Sid as usual. Letang will step up and Geno too. Why no one else? I think that Ludvig was even on the ice at the time.
 
Really pi$$ed last night that no one other than the usual teammates stood up for Jake after he got hit. It was Sid as usual. Letang will step up and Geno too. Why no one else? I think that Ludvig was even on the ice at the time.
cause it's a soft roster. when your superstar is doing the retaliating, you have a problem.
 
This will be unpopular…this isn’t a good hockey city. Hell, it really isn’t a great sports city IMO. It has oneof the most fair weather and spoiled fanbases I have ever encountered.

The penguins attendance goes in the tank if they aren’t an elite team. The Steelers immediately start losing attendance if they aren’t a Super Bowl contender. Yes the pirates suck, but even in the best of times people don’t show up for April and may games or September games. Pitt basketball is also a fine example of how attendance fell off a cliff at the end of Jamie’s tenure for a program that went go the tourney 3 of 4 years.

Anytime I hear about how great Pittsburgh fans are I want to puke. Every town has front runners, but Pittsburgh takes it to a whole new level, and the amount of success the penguins and Steelers have had has spoiled the city rotten
This should be fun. Name some great sports cities. Let's see how they stack up to your standards. I know from personal experience that Philly and Boston are both no better and in my opinion seemed not as loyal but saying that they aren't great sports cities would be silly imo.
 
zero clue how they havent axed sullivan yet..
Yeah man was just going to say that it’s time to start giving Sully the Tomlin treatment.

And then this is the time that others will say “but he has us competitive every year and other NHL teams would hire him in 10 seconds”.

But I feel like only Tomlin gets that defense for some reason.
 
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they are painful to watch, that's what sucks. just absolutely terrible, slow, boring, and soft. if they were slow and tough then so be it but they are slow, old and just hate to say it but really soft. wont fight, wont stick up for anyone, wont clear anyone out, just always getting bullied, both before and after the whistle.
Slow, boring and soft might be better than fat, drunk and stupid though. So they have that going for them.
 
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I absolutely hate Sullivan. I have written on every Pens thread we've had on here that he should be canned. I wanted him gone at least 3 years ago. The team has gotten slow and I can't handle Sullivan being a pacifist. We get bullied game in and game out. It's pathetic that we are so soft. We need a Matthew Tkachuk, actually 2 or 3 of him. Anyway, it is too late. We are headed back to what we had before Lemieux saved the franchise and that was damn sad. The only good thing about it is, if your like me and like hockey, when they suck again it becomes easier to afford to take the family to a game.
 
This will be unpopular…this isn’t a good hockey city. Hell, it really isn’t a great sports city IMO. It has oneof the most fair weather and spoiled fanbases I have ever encountered.

The penguins attendance goes in the tank if they aren’t an elite team. The Steelers immediately start losing attendance if they aren’t a Super Bowl contender. Yes the pirates suck, but even in the best of times people don’t show up for April and may games or September games. Pitt basketball is also a fine example of how attendance fell off a cliff at the end of Jamie’s tenure for a program that went go the tourney 3 of 4 years.

Anytime I hear about how great Pittsburgh fans are I want to puke. Every town has front runners, but Pittsburgh takes it to a whole new level, and the amount of success the penguins and Steelers have had has spoiled the city rotten
You are like SMF. It is a great hockey city. Now. That being said, it is also an expensive ticket and a gate driven league. So there is going to be a significant downturn until the Pens show that there is hope (rebuilding) again. Though there is going to be a serious wakeup call needed for the people of Pittsburgh. Having a bad team and expecting a generational talent to drop in their lap is likely not going to happen.
 
I can’t recall the last Pens post on here, seems like it’s been a while.

I guess that’s understandable given the current losing streak, getting blown out by Florida yesterday and falling further and further from a playoff spot.

I’ve never been one for completely blowing it up anytime over the last few years but it is now obviously at that point. Never a good sign when they are so bad that no one is even discussing them.
With each loss, the Pens Playoff hopes continue to dwindle and unless there is some unexpected turnaround, it doesn't look like they will make it ...... I don't think Dubas has decided yet if he is going to be a seller at the trade deadline but it is looking more and more like he may be, again unless some turnaround .......

So many problems with this team ...... Sid's line is the only one that has consistently scored goals, Geno is declining and his line playing poorly and not scoring, the bottom 6 is much better defensively but just as poor at scoring as last season ...... other then L1 we can't score goals.

The PP is awful ..... if it was just average we probably would have won 3-5 more games and would be talking about the Playoffs ..... pass the puck more quickly, shoot more, get traffic in front of the net, create chaos ....... it's not rocket science .....

Lack of physicality is obvious and we are average speed wise now ....... good structure/positioning is not consistent and leads to high danger shots against as well as odd man breaks ......

Rakell has had a very disappointing season ..... he hasn't put the puck in the net nearly as much as we need him to .........

I have no problem with replacing Sullivan ..... a change is probably needed unless some miracle turnaround happens the rest of this season ..... let's see how the season ends ......

I'm not sure if it is the coaches and/or General Managers fault but evaluate how the moves Dubas made have worked out so far (with the caveat that things may get better) ...... Karlsson has been pretty good but not great and we needed him to be great, ..... Reilly Smith was hot the first month and has played poorly since then and has performed well below expectations ...... Ryan Graves also has had a tough year and not performing as expected saying he has a hard time with the Pens breakout system and positioning system and he offers little offensively ...... Lars Eller has been solid defensively but has little offense left in his game ...... Noel Acciari also has been OK defensively and offers some physicality but very little offense ...... Alex Nedeljkovic has been an upgrade in goal as backup, enough that he may end up signing elsewhere for next season ...... Ludvig has been an OK pickup off waivers by Dubas as a 3rd line defenseman but nothing special so far although he is young and could get better, I'm concerned that he has had multiple concussions already in his career...... other players that Dubas brought in like Nieto, Hinostroza, Koppanen, Shea, Hellberg, Johansson, Pitlick are either in the AHL, out of the organization or not much of a factor ...... main point is that the bigger name players that Dubas has brought in have underperformed significantly to date (we can hope they pick their games up and play up to expectations or better but so far not so good) and the new role players for the most part haven't worked out ..... and, of course, the farm system is largely devoid of talent .....

The goalies have overall played very well ..... Jarry has played around the Top 10 level so far .....

Just the Pens luck, Geuntzel now hurt and out maybe 4 weeks which means the team has lost a top 2 scorer and it will be harder to trade him now before the trade deadline (which is 3/8/24) if that's what we want to do ...... the Pens would likely get the best deal for Geuntzel if traded before the trade deadline, doubt any team will offer anything for him if he isn't at full health before the trade deadline ...... they could trade him around the draft in June but that would be a no go unless a new contract is worked out with the new team before the trade is completed, and as of July 1, 2024, he is a free agent and we get nothing except 6M in cap space for him ...... the other option is to resign him but that may be cost prohibitive .... what a mess.

Dubas is going to have to decide what he is going to do at the trade deadline over the next week or two at the most ..... will be interesting to see his game plan.
 
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We can't. We had a choice of last year or this year, and because last year's was lottery protected this year is complete. So...doesn't matter.
Not true ..... we gave up the 2024 first round pick to San Jose last August long after the 2023 draft, so the 2024 first round pick is top 10 lottery protected as per my first post in this thread.
 
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Just the Pens luck, Geuntzel now hurt and out maybe 4 weeks which means the team has lost a top 2 scorer and it will be harder to trade him now before the trade deadline (which is 3/8/24) if that's what we want to do ...... the Pens would likely get the best deal for Geuntzel if traded before the trade deadline, doubt any team will offer anything for him if he isn't at full health before the trade deadline ...... they could trade him around the draft in June but that would be a no go unless a new contract is worked out with the new team before the trade is completed, and as of July 1, 2024, he is a free agent and we get nothing except 6M in cap space for him ...... the other option is to resign him but that may be cost prohibitive .... what a mess.

Dubas is going to have to decide what he is going to do at the trade deadline over the next week or two at the most ..... will be interesting to see his game plan.
Very good post as usual, but respectfully disagree about Guentzel.

Depending on the severity of his inury and his expected return, he should still be a valuable pickup for a serious contender. There is still alot of hockey to play from mid March through April and into the playoffs.

I have to believe that there would still be buyers interested in giving up some good capital to secure his services after he gets healthy, especially given his playoff production history. He would have more value for a team chasing a cup now than waiting til the off season for a deal when there will be a bidding war for his services.

This team is a mess that will not be fixed this year, or beyond without a rebuild. Time for the organization to accept that and plan for the future. Time to say thanks for the success of the past and move players for future assests. It's been done before. Lastly, time to move on from Sullivan. The expiration date on his "playing the right way" is past. Time for new blood.
 
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Very good post as usual, but respectfully disagree about Guentzel.

Depending on the severity of his inury and his expected return, he should still be a valuable pickup for a serious contender. There is still alot of hockey to play from mid March through April and into the playoffs.

I have to believe that there would still be buyers interested in giving up some good capital to secure his services after he gets healthy, especially given his playoff production history. He would have more value for a team chasing a cup now than waiting til the off season for a deal when there will be a bidding war for his services.

This team is a mess that will not be fixed this year, or beyond without a rebuild. Time for the organization to accept that and plan for the future. Time to say thanks for the success of the past and move players for future assests. It's been done before. Lastly, time to move on from Sullivan. The expiration date on his "playing the right way" is past. Time for new blood.
I think you are probably right, "Ship", about a team possibly taking Geuntzel before the trade deadline even with the injury ...... I just don't think the return will be as good as if he wasn't hurt ...... If it is a 4 week injury, that means he won't be ready to play for a week after the trade deadline, and so the team obtaining him would be taking a chance that he will be able to play at near 100% and would want as much medical input as possible but you are right, there still would be about a month left in the regular season and the playoffs if that team makes them ....... one thing about Jake is that he has had 2 major surgeries, one to his shoulder which was a massive surgery and one before last season to his ankle and both times he came back on or ahead of schedule so he seems to be a quick healer and as you said, Jake has been good in the playoffs which may make a team more likely to trade for him despite the injury ..... it will be very interesting to see how quickly he heals and what happens with Jake.
 
You are like SMF. It is a great hockey city. Now. That being said, it is also an expensive ticket and a gate driven league. So there is going to be a significant downturn until the Pens show that there is hope (rebuilding) again. Though there is going to be a serious wakeup call needed for the people of Pittsburgh. Having a bad team and expecting a generational talent to drop in their lap is likely not going to happen.
It’s really not great. They had horrible attendance in those years before Sid. They’ve been very fortunate to have all time great players and winning teams for as long as they have.

The interest just isn’t there for hockey. I never hear people talk about what’s going on in the rest of the league like I do for the NFL or college football.

They did a great job capturing young fans when Sid came on the scene. But now those fans have a “wake me up when they win in the playoffs attitude”.

We have very passionate fans here but they only care when the team is winning, regardless of the sport.
 
Not true ..... we gave up the 2024 first round pick to San Jose last August long after the 2023 draft, so the 2024 first round pick is top 10 lottery protected as per my first post in this thread.
OK. I thought it was just lottery protected so last year being technically "in the lottery" the Pens kept it. OK, so riddle me this, does it serve the Pens then to better collapse totally this season if not making the playoffs, and keep the pick? What if say they finish 7th overall, and then next year, 8th overall??

Regardless, they won last night but still didn't look particularly good in doing it aside from Sid and DOC, who I think should benefit from top 6 role.
 
It’s really not great. They had horrible attendance in those years before Sid. They’ve been very fortunate to have all time great players and winning teams for as long as they have.

The interest just isn’t there for hockey. I never hear people talk about what’s going on in the rest of the league like I do for the NFL or college football.

They did a great job capturing young fans when Sid came on the scene. But now those fans have a “wake me up when they win in the playoffs attitude”.

We have very passionate fans here but they only care when the team is winning, regardless of the sport.
Whoa. Let's also put a caveat to "those years before Sid". The Pens all but looked like they were going to move. So it is pretty hard for fans to invest in a team that might now be there. That really helped to drive down attendance.

You can definitely say the fanbase is spoiled, and actually some down years may slap some hard cold reality, but it is a good hockey town as the fact that hockey matters here.
 
You’d think showing up and showing support would make a statement that you want the team to stay.

Sure we’re a better hockey town than Miami or Nashville but I don’t think it matters as much as it does in the north east or upper Midwest. Those areas are active in hockey at the youth and college levels that’s nonexistent here.
 
This will be unpopular…this isn’t a good hockey city. Hell, it really isn’t a great sports city IMO. It has oneof the most fair weather and spoiled fanbases I have ever encountered.

The penguins attendance goes in the tank if they aren’t an elite team. The Steelers immediately start losing attendance if they aren’t a Super Bowl contender. Yes the pirates suck, but even in the best of times people don’t show up for April and may games or September games. Pitt basketball is also a fine example of how attendance fell off a cliff at the end of Jamie’s tenure for a program that went go the tourney 3 of 4 years.

Anytime I hear about how great Pittsburgh fans are I want to puke. Every town has front runners, but Pittsburgh takes it to a whole new level, and the amount of success the penguins and Steelers have had has spoiled the city rotten
Pittsburgh Yinzers are too sentimental, they actually care about Good Ole Sully, Tanger, Geno, Coach T, even borderline losers like Mason Rudolph or "bring back Cutch", as if they are friends or relatives instead of thinking pragmatic and kicking people who aren't delivering to the curb. And it's like the owners play to it, and all the teams have a "Pittsburgh Way" that became obsolete years ago, but we can't change anything, because "if it was good enough for the good ole Chief it's good enough for me", never acknowledging that The Chief was a Pathetic Loser for 40 years :)
 
You’d think showing up and showing support would make a statement that you want the team to stay.

Sure we’re a better hockey town than Miami or Nashville but I don’t think it matters as much as it does in the north east or upper Midwest. Those areas are active in hockey at the youth and college levels that’s nonexistent here.
Not for nothing, but over the last decade, more Pittsburgh kids have been chosen in the high rounds of the NHL draft than NFL draft.
 
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