Our Offense

[Protes]

Can one of the board gurus explain just what kind of offensive system JC is trying to employ? When JD was here I understood we were running a motion offense with the goal, of course, to get good shots. With JC I'm not sure what we are running, which all too often doesn't have the look of a structured offense at all. I'm just trying to gauge if the problems are with the head coach (not having a set system) or if its more a function of our players failing to execute what he wants.

 

[Tonyt66]

Can one of the board gurus explain just what kind of offensive system JC is trying to employ? When JD was here I understood we were running a motion offense with the goal, of course, to get good shots. With JC I'm not sure what we are running, which all too often doesn't have the look of a structured offense at all. I'm just trying to gauge if the problems are with the head coach (not having a set system) or if its more a function of our players failing to execute what he wants.

I'm not a Guru or anything that role goes to SMF! Now what I can say is they try to run a screen and roll it's supposed to be a pick-and-roll offense but our bigs don't know how to pick and unfortunately are two guards don't know how to roll or hit the big man rolling so we play a lot of one-on-one not coach's decision but players decision. With no inside presence we can be defended really easy so we hope to get a lot of offensive rebounds and put backs. We do drive a lot at least try to get fouled and go to foul line. In short JC really doesn't have the Personnel that he really wants to run his offense not yet but they're coming and by year 4 he will be able to do the things he really want to do in his offense.

 

[gary2]

I'm not a Guru or anything that role goes to SMF! Now what I can say is they try to run a screen and roll it's supposed to be a pick-and-roll offense but our bigs don't know how to pick and unfortunately are two guards don't know how to roll or hit the big man rolling so we play a lot of one-on-one not coach's decision but players decision. With no inside presence we can be defended really easy so we hope to get a lot of offensive rebounds and put backs. We do drive a lot at least try to get fouled and go to foul line. In short JC really doesn't have the Personnel that he really wants to run his offense not yet but they're coming and by year 4 he will be able to do the things he really want to do in his offense.

If what you are saying is correct, why would you run any offense that featured our bigs as a core element?

 

[tps48]

Can one of the board gurus explain just what kind of offensive system JC is trying to employ? When JD was here I understood we were running a motion offense with the goal, of course, to get good shots. With JC I'm not sure what we are running, which all too often doesn't have the look of a structured offense at all. I'm just trying to gauge if the problems are with the head coach (not having a set system) or if its more a function of our players failing to execute what he wants.

The Drive and Hope for a Foul Offense.

 

[Protes]

The Drive and Hope for a Foul Offense.

I was hoping to spark a good convo on this board for a change.

 

[Tonyt66]

If what you are saying is correct, why would you run any offense that featured our bigs as a core element?

Being that we can't shoot that well then you try to use your bigs to set solid screens without being called for offensive foul. That's the only core element they can be so that our guards can try to penetrate. You asking that question you must not be too up on what offenses do when they can't shoot or have no inside presence. I thought I explained it pretty well.

 

[gary2]

Being that we can't shoot that well then you try to use your bigs to set solid screens without being called for offensive foul. That's the only core element they can be so that our guards can try to penetrate. You asking that question you must not be too up on what offenses do when they can't shoot or have no inside presence. I thought I explained it pretty well.

How many screen and rolls or pick and rolls or two man games have our bigs converted this year? How many times was the ball even passed to them on the slip?

This is not Stockton and Malone.

Gotta love the idea of passing to Brown on the move.

Our guards can get penetration without any involvement of Brown or Hamilton.

 

[Chescat]

I'm not a Guru or anything that role goes to SMF! Now what I can say is they try to run a screen and roll it's supposed to be a pick-and-roll offense but our bigs don't know how to pick and unfortunately are two guards don't know how to roll or hit the big man rolling so we play a lot of one-on-one not coach's decision but players decision. With no inside presence we can be defended really easy so we hope to get a lot of offensive rebounds and put backs. We do drive a lot at least try to get fouled and go to foul line. In short JC really doesn't have the Personnel that he really wants to run his offense not yet but they're coming and by year 4 he will be able to do the things he really want to do in his offense.

I think you answered the original question pretty well. I agree with your mentioning
the pick and roll. We do set the pick with our bigs, but we don't do the roll part.
Usually the big sets the pick and "rolls" to the hoop. If done effectively it can cause
a switch which then results in a mis match. That's what USUALLY happens, but in
our case it's simply setting a pick and then having the guard dribble into the lane
for a shot, or a dump off. Teams have effectively cut that off recently. They "hedge"
or double team out front and have taken that away somewhat.

The above is in reference to what we do against a man to man D.
As far as the zone offense, I've posted about that numerous times. We
basically set a high pick out front and have the guard penetrate and get
something off it. Teams have been able to stop that for the most part
because we don't spread the zone out, by overloading and using the
weakside. As many pointed out on here, we do not rely on fast ball
movement to get the zone out of whack.

 

[gary2]

I think you answered the original question pretty well. I agree with your mentioning
the pick and roll. We do set the pick with our bigs, but we don't do the roll part.
Usually the big sets the pick and "rolls" to the hoop. If done effectively it can cause
a switch which then results in a mis match. That's what USUALLY happens, but in
our case it's simply setting a pick and then having the guard dribble into the lane
for a shot, or a dump off. Teams have effectively cut that off recently. They "hedge"
or double team out front and have taken that away somewhat.

The above is in reference to what we do against a man to man D.
As far as the zone offense, I've posted about that numerous times. We
basically set a high pick out front and have the guard penetrate and get
something off it. Teams have been able to stop that for the most part
because we don't spread the zone out, by overloading and using the
weakside. As many pointed out on here, we do not rely on fast ball
movement to get the zone out of whack.

Isolate in on our players when they go to set a screen. It's half hearted and ineffective, especially when compared against any Dixon team. In fact, I'm not sure I've even seen a technically good screen attempt by a Pitt Big the entire year....

So our bigs not only don't score off the pick and roll, they can't even do the pick?

This is the offense to run?

 

[Tonyt66]

How many screen and rolls or pick and rolls or two man games have our bigs converted this year? How many times was the ball even passed to them on the slip?

This is not Stockton and Malone.

Gotta love the idea of passing to Brown on the move.

Our guards can get penetration without any involvement of Brown or Hamilton.

Dude did you see anywhere in my text that said our bigs score or did read that they do not know how to set a pick or screen. You have to read before you speak and if you haven't seen how many times a game that X and Trey call for the pick and roll your not watching Pitt games.
They even try it when teams are in the zone at the end of the shot clock. SMH

 

[gary2]

Dude did you see anywhere in my text that said our bigs score or did read that they do not know how to set a pick or screen. You have to read before you speak and if you haven't seen how many times a game that X and Trey call for the pick and roll your not watching Pitt games.

I am not denying X and Trey call for the pick and roll. If you could read, you would see that I am questioning the sense of it.

I take it you agree we don't score off the slip?

I think various posters have posted our bigs aren't very good at setting screens. Joe the panther fan has maintained our guards are not great at using the screens that are set.

Do you think our bigs are good at setting screens? Do you think our guards are adept at using them?

Would you agree our guards can get penetration without the screen?

If all that is true, Where is the benefit?

 

[Tonyt66]

This is our offense in a nutshell right now! X and Trey try to penetrate either on their own or try to get a big to come up to set a pic if a team is playing man-to-man so one or two things happen they get a chance to drive in score or get fouled or they shoot a crazy jumper. Unfortunately they hardly set any plays for Justin he runs corner to corner and either gets a pass and shoots a three or he runs in and grab an offensive rebound and scores. When teams are in the zone they pass the ball around the zone maybe hit the guy that's coming up in the middle or as the time runs down they try to get a big to come up in Middle screen and try to get penetration and fire up any kind of shot that is our offense in a nutshell unless we get Steals and get fast breaks.

 

[Tonyt66]

I am not denying X and Trey call for the pick and roll. If you could read, you would see that I am questioning the sense of it.

I take it you agree we don't score off the slip?

I think various posters have posted our bigs aren't very good at setting screens. Joe the panther fan has maintained our guards are not great at using the screens that are set.

Do you think our bigs are good at setting screens? Do you think our guards are adept at using them?

Would you agree our guards can get penetration without the screen?

If all that is true, Where is the benefit?

Sorry man unfortunately there is no benefit that's why we got the worst looking offense in the league and our offense looks the same every game. Sometimes it shows up sometimes it don't. Some may take this as a downer but it's not it's just who we are right now and nobody's a bigger fan than me that's why I still go to the games even though I know I'm going to see the same thing most times. I'll be there the last 2 games too because I believe in coach and I think he'll turn this program around!

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I can't figure out what our offensive system is. There's little movement and no purposeful passing. It looks like we arent running anything. It is no wonder we are in the 300s in pace. This team's slow pace is right up there with Dixon's but at least they were trying to play slow then. We are playing slow because we cant get an open shot

 

[pittbb80]

So our bigs not only don't score off the pick and roll, they can't even do the pick?

This is the offense to run?

So what offense do you run when you lack reliable shooters and have no inside presence?

 

[ebonylover40]

Pittbb, exactly. You can try and run whatever offense you want, but if your guards doesn't execute it, it bogs down the whole offense. I like Trey and X, but the problem with running our offense, starts and ends with them.

Against the zone, they refuse to pass the ball quickly to the player that flash to the free-throw line. They simply pass the ball between them-selves are they continue to dribble. Then when the clock is down, they either try then the throw it there or try and drive when the zone is not spread out. In man, they just believe they can drive by everyone and expect to get fouled. It happened a lot last year, but they are not getting the same calls this year.

You can't have both your point and shoot guard with the same game and no real jump shot of the dribble or open 3. It makes the offense look rudderless. Trey drives and doesn't have his head up. He ends up with a lot of awkward shots. And as other's have said they don't really have any shooters yet.

People seem to think Caple doesn't know what he is doing. Well when your guards lack the basketball acumen, you see what we see. He's benched X on numerous occasions, but it just doesn't sink in. Hopefully the right guards will be in place soon.

 

[Tonyt66]

I can't figure out what our offensive system is. There's little movement and no purposeful passing. It looks like we arent running anything. It is no wonder we are in the 300s in pace. This team's slow pace is right up there with Dixon's but at least they were trying to play slow then. We are playing slow because we cant get an open shot

So what offense do you run when you lack reliable shooters and have no inside presence?

I hate to say it but really don't have one! When I'm watching them play on TV or at the game I'm saying exactly what's going to happen before it happens because its painfully predictable.
IMO I think they should just run everything through Justin right now I mean actually run plays for him there best scorer. Create an offense through him.

What do you guys think?

 

[Pitt79]

On Offense, why has Murphy become invisible? since he came back from injury, he seems to be averaging 0.0ppg and not even taking any 3s at all. Previously, he was averaging double figures with most of it behind the line. I've only seen one of the last 4 games because of the ACCN crap, so I don't really know, I just see box scores for some games.

 

[Tonyt66]

He's been looking as though he doesn't have his confidence yet and teams are not leaving him open plus our offense has been real stagnant and he's not a player who can go get his own shot but I think even when he does get open he's gun-shy that tells me his confidence is not there yet.

On Offense, why has Murphy become invisible? since he came back from injury, he seems to be averaging 0.0ppg and not even taking any 3s at all. Previously, he was averaging double figures with most of it behind the line. I've only seen one of the last 4 games because of the ACCN crap, so I don't really know, I just see box scores for some games.

 

[gary2]

So what offense do you run when you lack reliable shooters and have no inside presence?

Phil Jackson would run the triangle offense. It is the best offense to space the floor.

 

[TWPitt]

Can one of the board gurus explain just what kind of offensive system JC is trying to employ? When JD was here I understood we were running a motion offense with the goal, of course, to get good shots. With JC I'm not sure what we are running, which all too often doesn't have the look of a structured offense at all. I'm just trying to gauge if the problems are with the head coach (not having a set system) or if its more a function of our players failing to execute what he wants.

I am not an X/O expert either but it seems that X and Trey always try to penetrate to the wrong side of the screen. They tend to go to the defender side, I thought you were supposed to use your man as the screen to get around the defender.

Also TB is horrible at screening and may lead the ACC in illegal/moving screen calls -- seems he has at least 1 a game. Hamilton is better screening and catching but tends to be more out of control heading to the basket.

Hoping Coulibaly/Hugley are more adept next year.

 

[lilspainishflea]

On Offense, why has Murphy become invisible? since he came back from injury, he seems to be averaging 0.0ppg and not even taking any 3s at all. Previously, he was averaging double figures with most of it behind the line. I've only seen one of the last 4 games because of the ACCN crap, so I don't really know, I just see box scores for some games.

He's not a guy who is good enough to get his own shot and we don't move the ball effectively as a team. He looks really bad because he's fairly one-dimensional and the tape is out on him. I don't mean to single him out, it's a problem for our entire offense. Each guy does, maybe, 1 thing well so teams are just taking that away and we don't have any other skills. For Murphy, that means playing him super tight when he gets the ball and you just shut him down completely.

This is the difference between the rest of the ACC and us

Other teams: the guards penetrate and then kick to the corner and then kick to the wing (Murphy) for an open look.
Us: the guards penetrate, center and wing defender collapse on the ball, guards maintain the dribble and don't pass, have no where to go with the ball, awkward shot or turnover.

 

[lilspainishflea]

I am not an X/O expert either but it seems that X and Trey always try to penetrate to the wrong side of the screen. They tend to go to the defender side, I thought you were supposed to use your man as the screen to get around the defender.

Also TB is horrible at screening and may lead the ACC in illegal/moving screen calls -- seems he has at least 1 a game. Hamilton is better screening and catching but tends to be more out of control heading to the basket.

Hoping Coulibaly/Hugley are more adept next year.

They're both super right hand dominant guards. So even when TB sets the pick to go left, they rarely do it because they don't have that move. That's why you see them go to the wrong side. Defenders also know this and play their right side super tight.

 

[pittbb80]

Phil Jackson would run the triangle offense. It is the best offense to space the floor.

Phil Jackson had Shaq, Koby, Mike, Rodman, Kerr, Scotty

 

[pittbb80]

I hate to say it but really don't have one! When I'm watching them play on TV or at the game I'm saying exactly what's going to happen before it happens because its painfully predictable.
IMO I think they should just run everything through Justin right now I mean actually run plays for him there best scorer. Create an offense through him.

What do you guys think?

Couldnt hurt but teams will figure that out and take him away.

The thing Im puzzled at is they make no attempt to run guys off screens "off the ball" to free them up. All to often the offense consists of passing around the perimeter with guys watching and one guy ultimately forcing a drive. The rare times when the offense is clicking, there is more movement off the ball.

 

[gary2]

They're both super right hand dominant guards. So even when TB sets the pick to go left, they rarely do it because they don't have that move. That's why you see them go to the wrong side. Defenders also know this and play their right side super tight.

A couple questions:

Knowing what we know, why would Brown set a pick to go left?

If teams are seriously over playing your right hand, are there things that can be done to make them pay for that?

 

[gary2]

They're both super right hand dominant guards. So even when TB sets the pick to go left, they rarely do it because they don't have that move. That's why you see them go to the wrong side. Defenders also know this and play their right side super tight.

A couple more questions:

If teams are not worried about the roll and not peeling back to cover, aren't we just creating more traffic for our guard to navigate?

Do you think our guards would have a better chance at dribble drive without the screen?

 

[lilspainishflea]

A couple questions:

Knowing what we know, why would Brown set a pick to go left?

If teams are seriously over playing your right hand, are there things that can be done to make them pay for that?

I can't speak to every situation but Brown is setting a pick to go left usually when that's the correct way for the guard to go. If the defender is overplaying the right, when Brown picks left the guard should either be totally open in the high post or, at worst, 1on1 with the center. But that doesn't really happen much because either: 1) our guards aren't skilled enough with their left to effectively drive the lane with that hand, or 2) the center isn't afraid of Brown rolling to the basket so they just come up and play the left side anyway and there's really nothing gained from the pick. I actually think it's both of these.

What can be done with this knowledge? I'm not sure. It's tough to scheme open guys when: 1) you don't have any bigs that can score; and 2) you don't have enough guards and wings who can shoot from 3. We are who we are at this point. I do think there's too much wasted movement from our off-ball players and way too much dribbling from our guards. If I was coaching this team I would try to make a rule that you need 2-3 passes inside the arc before every shot. Just go back to fundamentals of ball movement. This always leads to better looks.

 

[lilspainishflea]

A couple more questions:

If teams are not worried about the roll and not peeling back to cover, aren't we just creating more traffic for our guard to navigate?

Do you think our guards would have a better chance at dribble drive without the screen?

Yes. See my last comment.

Sort of. I don't think our screens at the top of the arc are effective. I would like to see Brown setting more screens for our off ball guys, especially Justin.

 

[gary2]

I can't speak to every situation but Brown is setting a pick to go left usually when that's the correct way for the guard to go. If the defender is overplaying the right, when Brown picks left the guard should either be totally open in the high post or, at worst, 1on1 with the center. But that doesn't really happen much because either: 1) our guards aren't skilled enough with their left to effectively drive the lane with that hand, or 2) the center isn't afraid of Brown rolling to the basket so they just come up and play the left side anyway and there's really nothing gained from the pick. I actually think it's both of these.

What can be done with this knowledge? I'm not sure. It's tough to scheme open guys when: 1) you don't have any bigs that can score; and 2) you don't have enough guards and wings who can shoot from 3. We are who we are at this point. I do think there's too much wasted movement from our off-ball players and way too much dribbling from our guards. If I was coaching this team I would try to make a rule that you need 2-3 passes inside the arc before every shot. Just go back to fundamentals of ball movement. This always leads to better looks.

Thanks for the reply. Agree - we need less dribbling and more "real" ball movement.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

Phil Jackson would run the triangle offense. It is the best offense to space the floor.

Phil Jackson was coaching the greatest players of all time in an NBA with an archaic "illegal defense" rule that made zone, or even hedging for more than a second, a technical foul. Look at how poorly it did when he brought it back for the late Melo-era Knicks when teams could defend without bizarre, restrictive rules. Despite the fact that in theory Melo was one of the better Iso players around, and the Triangle (especially if you take away a few back door cuts) ultimately becomes an iso post up offense.

I coached against a JV team that ran an effective triangle offense against man to man teams (it's still a pretty popular offense among old school middle school coaches, and somewhat easier to teach than a Princeton style motion offense.) We played a box and 1, and despite the fact we had inferior talent, won pretty easily.

Anyway, there is a reason nearly every college coach runs the same system: it's what players played in high school and on the AAU circuit. It's a stripped down version of what they'll play in the NBA. The key is making small adjustments, develop players, and of course recruit superior talent. You aren't going to have Bobby Knight running a motion offense today to get open 17 foot jump shots from the elbow.

 

[Protes]

@DT_PITT I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[gary2]

Phil Jackson was coaching the greatest players of all time in an NBA with an archaic "illegal defense" rule that made zone, or even hedging for more than a second, a technical foul. Look at how poorly it did when he brought it back for the late Melo-era Knicks when teams could defend without bizarre, restrictive rules. Despite the fact that in theory Melo was one of the better Iso players around, and the Triangle (especially if you take away a few back door cuts) ultimately becomes an iso post up offense.

I coached against a JV team that ran an effective triangle offense against man to man teams (it's still a pretty popular offense among old school middle school coaches, and somewhat easier to teach than a Princeton style motion offense.) We played a box and 1, and despite the fact we had inferior talent, won pretty easily.

Anyway, there is a reason nearly every college coach runs the same system: it's what players played in high school and on the AAU circuit. It's a stripped down version of what they'll play in the NBA. The key is making small adjustments, develop players, and of course recruit superior talent. You aren't going to have Bobby Knight running a motion offense today to get open 17 foot jump shots from the elbow.

My post was sarcastic.

 

[Coachkirsch]

Can one of the board gurus explain just what kind of offensive system JC is trying to employ? When JD was here I understood we were running a motion offense with the goal, of course, to get good shots. With JC I'm not sure what we are running, which all too often doesn't have the look of a structured offense at all. I'm just trying to gauge if the problems are with the head coach (not having a set system) or if its more a function of our players failing to execute what he wants.

 

[Coachkirsch]

I have wondered about Pitt's offense as well. I'm curious as to what they are trying to do. It is not obvious. Has anyone seen a backdoor cut? It just seems to be 5 players weaving ,passing the ball around without an obvious purpose or standing around waiting for someone to try to make a play. It is no wonder why it takes 25 seconds for something to happen. Some of the runs are fun to watch but there aren't enough of them to define what the offense is trying to do. Maybe more of a structured offense would help
Certainly better players would help too.

 

[JS School]

Maybe Capel thinks that missing 60% of dribble drive layups is more effective than missing 75% of jump shots.

 

[DT_PITT]

@DT_PITT I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I have plenty.

Will try to get to them later today.

 

[Pitt79]

He's not a guy who is good enough to get his own shot and we don't move the ball effectively as a team. He looks really bad because he's fairly one-dimensional and the tape is out on him. I don't mean to single him out, it's a problem for our entire offense. Each guy does, maybe, 1 thing well so teams are just taking that away and we don't have any other skills. For Murphy, that means playing him super tight when he gets the ball and you just shut him down completely.

But still, until 2-3 weeks ago he'd get 3-4 shots up per game, then it instantly drops to 0? Has to be more than that.

 

[PittMan 72]

I can't speak to every situation but Brown is setting a pick to go left usually when that's the correct way for the guard to go. If the defender is overplaying the right, when Brown picks left the guard should either be totally open in the high post or, at worst, 1on1 with the center. But that doesn't really happen much because either: 1) our guards aren't skilled enough with their left to effectively drive the lane with that hand, or 2) the center isn't afraid of Brown rolling to the basket so they just come up and play the left side anyway and there's really nothing gained from the pick. I actually think it's both of these.

What can be done with this knowledge? I'm not sure. It's tough to scheme open guys when: 1) you don't have any bigs that can score; and 2) you don't have enough guards and wings who can shoot from 3. We are who we are at this point. I do think there's too much wasted movement from our off-ball players and way too much dribbling from our guards. If I was coaching this team I would try to make a rule that you need 2-3 passes inside the arc before every shot. Just go back to fundamentals of ball movement. This always leads to better looks.

Lots of times it seems there is also too much catching and pausing by guys on the perimeter. You get the zone out of shape and creates gaps and advantages vs it by moving the ball with continuity to cause the zone to move. The ball will move faster than any player can; but it has to keep moving and can't stop. As soon as it does and sticks in someone's hands, the zone has a chance to re-configure.

The guys handling the ball have to know where they're going with it and move it immediately. They can't be holding it, hesitating and looking around. Nor can the guys without the ball be standing around, either. Need better ball and player movement, both.

It would also be helpful on pick and roll plays if the Pitt player setting the pick and rolling would also occasionally receive a pass and then be able to make a 2nd pass. To a cutter from the wing or along the baseline; or on a give and go to the guy who passed him the ball initially. But the dexterity in terms of catching and passing on the part of the Pitt bigs has often been problematic, also. So that type of attack has been limited. Gotta work towards better execution - and better days - ahead.

 

[lilspainishflea]

But still, until 2-3 weeks ago he'd get 3-4 shots up per game, then it instantly drops to 0? Has to be more than that.

It could be that he's not healthy. He was healthy at Duke, however, and was 0-1 from the field, 0 FT attempts, 1 assist, and 1 steal. So it's certainly possible that teams are just trying and succeeding at taking him out of the game.

I'm sure, like most things in life, it's a little of several issues.