Peak’s credibility gone

[Panther Parrothead]

History, and the history of Pitt football for Pitt fans, is important and often forgotten. I don't understand why so many people just dismiss history completely. They revise it to suit their narratives. History adds context and reveals the character of the program over the years. Without it, we lose perspective.

Unfortunately, too many people think that history started on the day that they were born.

A few weeks ago, I got into a lengthy discussion with one of my kids re: who is/was the World’s Greatest Athlete. They came-up with names such as Simone Biles and other current greats, but I countered with names such as Jim Thorpe, Babe Ruth, Bo Jackson, and yes, Bruce Jenner. They defended by noting that the people whom I named can’t be “the greatest”, because all of their records have been eclipsed several times over.

I insisted that the label “great” should be based on an athlete’s performance in comparison to one’s peers and to what degree they were dominant in their era. In sports where there is specific measurement (i.e. time, distance), we should always expect these number to get better - because humans continue to get bigger, faster, and stronger as training methods and knowledge of nutrition get better.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Unfortunately, too many people think that history started on the day that they were born.

A few weeks ago, I got into a lengthy discussion with one of my kids re: who is/was the World’s Greatest Athlete. They came-up with names such as Simone Biles and other current greats, but I countered with names such as Jim Thorpe, Babe Ruth, Bo Jackson, and yes, Bruce Jenner. They defended by noting that the people whom I named can’t be “the greatest”, because all of their records have been eclipsed several times over.

I insisted that the label “great” should be based on an athlete’s performance in comparison to one’s peers and to what degree they were dominant in their era. In sports where there is specific measurement (i.e. time, distance), we should always expect these number to get better - because humans continue to get bigger, faster, and stronger as training methods and knowledge of nutrition get better.

doesnt make sense though. Dorsett is unanimously considered Pitt's all time greatest and he played 50 years ago. how many pitt fans actually even saw him play. Im in my late 40's and wasnt even born yet when he was a senior. Heck, i barely remember Dan Marino at pitt..

and pitt fans still bring up ditka. i guarantee you that you can count on one hand the pitt fans that ever saw him play.. Doleman, Rickey Jackson, Fralic, Hugh, all these guys, you have to be well in your 50's to remember them playing at pitt. ANd yet we all unanimously have them on our Mt. Rushmore list of pitt greats..

 

[Panther Parrothead]

doesnt make sense though. Dorsett is unanimously considered Pitt's all time greatest and he played 50 years ago. how many pitt fans actually even saw him play. Im in my late 40's and wasnt even born yet when he was a senior. Heck, i barely remember Dan Marino at pitt..

and pitt fans still bring up ditka. i guarantee you that you can count on one hand the pitt fans that ever saw him play.. Doleman, Rickey Jackson, Fralic, Hugh, all these guys, you have to be well in your 50's to remember them playing at pitt. ANd yet we all unanimously have them on our Mt. Rushmore list of pitt greats..

As I noted…when compared to their peers, Dorsett, Doleman, Jackson, Fralic, Green, Marino, were head and shoulders above the great majority of those whom they competed against. And fortunately, they played in the era when the technology existed to record their greatness. Nowadays, everything that we discuss and debate is usually “proveable” on a YouTube video.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Unfortunately, too many people think that history started on the day that they were born.

A few weeks ago, I got into a lengthy discussion with one of my kids re: who is/was the World’s Greatest Athlete. They came-up with names such as Simone Biles and other current greats, but I countered with names such as Jim Thorpe, Babe Ruth, Bo Jackson, and yes, Bruce Jenner. They defended by noting that the people whom I named can’t be “the greatest”, because all of their records have been eclipsed several times over.

I insisted that the label “great” should be based on an athlete’s performance in comparison to one’s peers and to what degree they were dominant in their era. In sports where there is specific measurement (i.e. time, distance), we should always expect these number to get better - because humans continue to get bigger, faster, and stronger as training methods and knowledge of nutrition get better.

I never watched Dorsett play and wasn’t born .
I never watched Fralic or Hugh Green play at snap .

Both of your premises are dumb .
Aaron Donald and Larry Fitzgerald’s performance compared to their peers meets your criteria . Marino’s doesn’t (in college )
Who were Marshall Goldberg’s peers?

Bruce Jenner won 1 gold in the Olympics and 1 in the panam games . (76 and 75)
Simone biles has 11 olympic medals and 30 world championship medals .
They aren’t comparable . Simone has dominated her sport for almost a decade .

 

[Rickey]

WOW...I didn't even see the list but that's my exact five - don't know where you can fit anyone else in that group.

Marino over both Fitzgerald and Donald

 

[Las Panteras]

Sean Gilbert was destructive as were a few other of his Pitt contemporaries on the DL. Just sayin.

Sean Gilbert played a total of 11 games for Pitt

 

[Panther Parrothead]

I never watched Dorsett play and wasn’t born .
I never watched Fralic or Hugh Green play at snap .

Both of your premises are dumb .
Aaron Donald and Larry Fitzgerald’s performance compared to their peers meets your criteria . Marino’s doesn’t (in college )
Who were Marshall Goldberg’s peers?

Bruce Jenner won 1 gold in the Olympics and 1 in the panam games . (76 and 75)
Simone biles has 11 olympic medals and 30 world championship medals .
They aren’t comparable . Simone has dominated her sport for almost a decade .

Watch videos of both Dorsett and Fralic. No excuse for not watching anyone today, thanks to YouTube. FWIW, the term "pancake" was first used by the Pitt Sports Info guy who kept a tally of the times that Fralic flattened an opponent.

Goldberg earned his reputation by the media who covered sports back then. From Wikipedia:

At the University of Pittsburgh, under coach Jock Sutherland, he led the Pitt Panthers to back-to-back national championships in 1936 and 1937. Goldberg's 1936 team won the 1937 Rose Bowl. He finished third in the Heisman Trophyvoting in 1937 and was runner-up for the Heisman in 1938. He was also an All-American in both 1937 and 1938, first as a halfback and then as a fullback. During his Pitt career he amassed 1,957 rushing yards, a school record that stood until 1974 when Tony Dorsett surpassed it. Goldberg was part of Pitt's legendary Dream Backfield along with Dick Cassiano, John 'Chick' Chickerneo, & Curly Stebbins. Some experts consider Pitt's Dream Backfield superior to the more famous Four Horsemen of Notre Dame. (The Cardinals pro team has retired his number, as Pitt has.)

*Maybe you didn't know this, but for a long time, the winner of the Decathlon was often referred to as "The World's Greatest Athlete". (Kinda like the winner of the 100 dash was called "The World's Fastest Man". ) Jenner did it "only once".....but here's an Interesting read:

The Olympic Decathlon Winner: The Best Athlete in the World?

They'll compete in 10 events over two grueling days in Tokyo. Does that make the gold medalist in the decathlon the best athlete in the world?

entertainment.howstuffworks.com

No argument about Simone. Greatness is also defined when they name moves and techniques after her, She has... is it 4, or 6 (?) moves that she did before anyone else.....but some day, someone will surpass her, too.

 

[MorningCoffee13]

Anyone that thinks Marino was a better player than Donald is insane. Donald was an impact player as a freshman on a deep D. He was consistently great for his last 3 years after being a merely good depth guy that Freshman year. He didn't play poorly in any stretch and singlehandedly won games. Maybe the QB position is more important so people don't know how to judge such things but Donald was as dominant as any player in history including the other 4 on the list. Donald was Pitt's best player against FSU in his 1st game and nearly every game his last couple seasons. Nobody nationwide even thought of voting for anyone else above him at DT. for AA. Marino was just one of several excellent QB's in his era. He was very rarely Pitts best player in any game of that era. Not even remotely close.

PS: just chatted with an oldtimer. He said Joe Schmidt was so good that the list should be 6 and Schmidt should be on it.

Are you 10. lol. Danny was a way better college player.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

You're not doing your homework...

Bronko Nagurski Trophy (2013)
Chuck Bednarik Award (2013)
Lombardi Award (2013)
Outland Trophy (2013)
Bill Willis Trophy (2013)
Unanimous All-American (2013)
ACC Defensive Player of the Year (2013)
First-team All-ACC (2013)
First-team All-Big East (2012)
Second-team All-Big East (2011)

Donald definitely belongs in the top 5

One thing that has always bugged me was that Donald didn’t get heisman consideration. His final year was one of the best of all time, but Aidan Hutchinson made it to the finals with lesser stats. I’ll give you one guess why

 

[MorningCoffee13]

I never watched Dorsett play and wasn’t born .
I never watched Fralic or Hugh Green play at snap .

Both of your premises are dumb .
Aaron Donald and Larry Fitzgerald’s performance compared to their peers meets your criteria . Marino’s doesn’t (in college )
Who were Marshall Goldberg’s peers?

Bruce Jenner won 1 gold in the Olympics and 1 in the panam games . (76 and 75)
Simone biles has 11 olympic medals and 30 world championship medals .
They aren’t comparable . Simone has dominated her sport for almost a decade .

You time and time again prove how dumb you are. I feel SMF is ten times smarter than your posts. Jesus how stupid.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Are you 10. lol. Danny was a way better college player.

I'm old enough to have been in school at the same time as Marino and saw him play live numerous times.

Donald is much, much closer to the greatest college defensive tackle of all time than Marino is to the greatest college quarterback of all time. It's not even close. The fact that Marino went on to become one of the five or so best professional quarterbacks of all time shouldn't color that he wasn't that good (meaning top five good) as a college quarterback.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

I could make an argument for revis over Marino. Revis doesn’t have stats, but that simply because he was so good teams threw nowhere near him.

 

[pittmeister]

doesnt make sense though. Dorsett is unanimously considered Pitt's all time greatest and he played 50 years ago. how many pitt fans actually even saw him play. Im in my late 40's and wasnt even born yet when he was a senior. Heck, i barely remember Dan Marino at pitt..

and pitt fans still bring up ditka. i guarantee you that you can count on one hand the pitt fans that ever saw him play.. Doleman, Rickey Jackson, Fralic, Hugh, all these guys, you have to be well in your 50's to remember them playing at pitt. ANd yet we all unanimously have them on our Mt. Rushmore list of pitt greats..

I was fortunate enough to see them all play starting from age 13 through 16 during the Dorsett years and forward. There is no absolute wrong answer beyond Dorsett and Green. But I will say based on what I saw with my own eyes, I would say that the list provided by Chris Peak (Dorsett, Green, Donald, Fralic and Fitzgerald) is spot on in my opinion. Each have not only been recognized as Pitt greats, but received national recognition as the very best to play their positions in College Football History.

Danny Marino, Mark May, Ricky Jackson, Jimbo Covert, Chris Doleman, Mike Ditka, etc.. would be a slam dunk top five at other schools.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Your opinion. They were the greats of a great era in Pitt football that everyone forgets. Recency (last 50 years) doesn't mean you eliminate the greats of a previous era. That's the problem with people today. They either forget history or revise it to suit their warped agendas.

It's like saying Joe DiMaggio and Lou Gehrig aren't relevant to baseball history, or Joe Louis isn't relevant to boxing history. All were stars and champions competing in 1937 when Pitt was unanimous national champions.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Save your lectures.
Nobody actually cares about pre-WW1 titles when 20 schools played

Actually, way more schools competed pre-WW1 & 2 than today. And college football was higher in the sports hierarchy in the US. Unfortunately for you, ignorance of history doesn't change it.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

And college football was higher in the sports hierarchy in the US.

I'm not sure that's true. Back then baseball and boxing would have clearly been higher than college football. Today, if college football is not second behind the NFL it's third after the NFL and the NBA.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Actually, way more schools competed pre-WW1 & 2 than today. And college football was higher in the sports hierarchy in the US. Unfortunately for you, ignorance of history doesn't change it.

I think he's just too young, naive and ignorant to understand the importance of history. He just wants to revise it to suit his warped narrative.

 

[Panther Parrothead]

Actually, way more schools competed pre-WW1 & 2 than today. And college football was higher in the sports hierarchy in the US. Unfortunately for you, ignorance of history doesn't change it.

It’s the nature of things today. Some people can’t accurately relate what happened on January 6, 2021 - let alone what happened in Pitt football in the 1970s, 80s, and 90’s.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

It’s the nature of things today. Some people can’t accurately relate what happened on January 6, 2021 - let alone what happened in Pitt football in the 1970s, 80s, and 90’s.

Ummm where are you going with this…..

 

[CrazyPaco]

I'm not sure that's true. Back then baseball and boxing would have clearly been higher than college football. Today, if college football is not second behind the NFL it's third after the NFL and the NBA.

Depends how you measure. College football was for sure no less than 3rd in the 20s and 30s, as you say, with no real competition from a pro football league. In 2023, for instance, per cable and internet streaming:

 

[CrazyPaco]

Ummm where are you going with this…..

I'll go with it...current logic displayed by some dismissing history that they are unfamiliar with is the same logic that will cause any results pre-college playoff to be flushed down the drain, as if the sport didn't exist when Dorsett and Marino played. If you think Fitzgerald and Aaron Donald are relevant, but but your grandfather's teams and players weren't, then just wait 50 years.

Why is Knute Rockne and the four horseman still known? That was 1924. Pitt enjoys a richer history than most all programs, and it should be celebrated and underscored.

 

[Panther Parrothead]

Ummm where are you going with this…..

Just reflecting on the short memories of our populace. 😇

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Depends how you measure. College football was for sure no less than 3rd in the 20s and 30s, as you say, with no real competition from a pro football league. In 2023, for instance, per cable and internet streaming:

I agree, depends on how you measure. But it's also hard to compare a sport where teams are playing 12 regular season games, most of which are all on the same day of the week, with a sport that plays 162 regular season games over six months.

I'd also question any metric that says that G League basketball is more watched than, for example, golf or the WWE. Or that lists "Basketball, WNBA" two different times with two different percentages attached to it. It would be interesting to know the methodology that came to that conclusion.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Watch videos of both Dorsett and Fralic. No excuse for not watching anyone today, thanks to YouTube. FWIW, the term "pancake" was first used by the Pitt Sports Info guy who kept a tally of the times that Fralic flattened an opponent.

Goldberg earned his reputation by the media who covered sports back then. From Wikipedia:

At the University of Pittsburgh, under coach Jock Sutherland, he led the Pitt Panthers to back-to-back national championships in 1936 and 1937. Goldberg's 1936 team won the 1937 Rose Bowl. He finished third in the Heisman Trophyvoting in 1937 and was runner-up for the Heisman in 1938. He was also an All-American in both 1937 and 1938, first as a halfback and then as a fullback. During his Pitt career he amassed 1,957 rushing yards, a school record that stood until 1974 when Tony Dorsett surpassed it. Goldberg was part of Pitt's legendary Dream Backfield along with Dick Cassiano, John 'Chick' Chickerneo, & Curly Stebbins. Some experts consider Pitt's Dream Backfield superior to the more famous Four Horsemen of Notre Dame. (The Cardinals pro team has retired his number, as Pitt has.)

*Maybe you didn't know this, but for a long time, the winner of the Decathlon was often referred to as "The World's Greatest Athlete". (Kinda like the winner of the 100 dash was called "The World's Fastest Man". ) Jenner did it "only once".....but here's an Interesting read:

The Olympic Decathlon Winner: The Best Athlete in the World?

They'll compete in 10 events over two grueling days in Tokyo. Does that make the gold medalist in the decathlon the best athlete in the world?

entertainment.howstuffworks.com

No argument about Simone. Greatness is also defined when they name moves and techniques after her, She has... is it 4, or 6 (?) moves that she did before anyone else.....but some day, someone will surpass her, too.

very hard to actually find Dorsett college clips. Some clips in 1976 but very few film clips even exist of him in 73 or 74. Guess games just werent filmed/recorded for TV back then besides a few of the big ones..

Outside of the sugar bowl and maybe some highlights against Notre Dame, and navy, that's it.. Kind of sucks, i'd love to watch actual games of him playing (Outside of the sugar bowl). Every "dorsett highlght" in college is in super slow motion for dramatic effect and i'd just like to see it normal time..

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Ummm where are you going with this…..

oh christ, dont egg him on please..

 

[MorningCoffee13]

I'm old enough to have been in school at the same time as Marino and saw him play live numerous times.

Donald is much, much closer to the greatest college defensive tackle of all time than Marino is to the greatest college quarterback of all time. It's not even close. The fact that Marino went on to become one of the five or so best professional quarterbacks of all time shouldn't color that he wasn't that good (meaning top five good) as a college quarterback.

In terms of effects on Pitt, Danny is several echelons higher than AD. You are a complete stubborn buffoon if you cannot see that. We WERE college football when he played. We were not even an afterthought when AD played.

 

[PittPharm2002]

You time and time again prove how dumb you are. I feel SMF is ten times smarter than your posts. Jesus how stupid.

Why?
Because I agree with Peak’s top 5 list and disagree with the argument it’s recency bias .

 

[PittPharm2002]

In terms of effects on Pitt, Danny is several echelons higher than AD. You are a complete stubborn buffoon if you cannot see that. We WERE college football when he played. We were not even an afterthought when AD played.

Yeah ?
Which facilities has Marino sponsored ?
Who’s given more back to Pitt?

Aaron Donald Makes Historic Financial Commitment to Pitt Football - Pitt Panthers #H2P

PITTSBURGH—Before Aaron Donald was a perennial All-Pro defensive tackle for the Los Angeles Rams, he dominated the college ranks as an All-America performer at the

pittsburghpanthers.com

 

[Fk_Pitt]

One thing that has always bugged me was that Donald didn’t get heisman consideration. His final year was one of the best of all time, but Aidan Hutchinson made it to the finals with lesser stats. I’ll give you one guess why

Yeah playing for Michigan has its benefits.

But, no one could deny Donald all of those trophies.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

I'm old enough to have been in school at the same time as Marino and saw him play live numerous times.

Donald is much, much closer to the greatest college defensive tackle of all time than Marino is to the greatest college quarterback of all time. It's not even close. The fact that Marino went on to become one of the five or so best professional quarterbacks of all time shouldn't color that he wasn't that good (meaning top five good) as a college quarterback.

This^^^

And I say this when Marino is the reason I’m a Pitt fan. Marino is my favorite Panther of all time. I was young and impressionable when he played.

Donald (and Fitz) were the most dominant college players I ever saw. Marino underachieved.

Those are just facts.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

It’s the nature of things today. Some people can’t accurately relate what happened on January 6, 2021 - let alone what happened in Pitt football in the 1970s, 80s, and 90’s.

Well said.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Yeah playing for Michigan has its benefits.

But, no one could deny Donald all of those trophies.

It was surprising .
He was more dominant than Suh and helluva more impactful than Tao.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

In terms of effects on Pitt, Danny is several echelons higher than AD. You are a complete stubborn buffoon if you cannot see that. We WERE college football when he played. We were not even an afterthought when AD played.

Sure, absolutely, Marino had a bigger effect on Pitt when he was playing.

Which, of course, has absolutely nothing at all to do with who was the better college football player. Surely you understand that.

 

[thebadby2]

You're not doing your homework...

Bronko Nagurski Trophy (2013)
Chuck Bednarik Award (2013)
Lombardi Award (2013)
Outland Trophy (2013)
Bill Willis Trophy (2013)
Unanimous All-American (2013)
ACC Defensive Player of the Year (2013)
First-team All-ACC (2013)
First-team All-Big East (2012)
Second-team All-Big East (2011)

Donald definitely belongs in the top 5

AD was the most dominant interior DL in the country his last two years. Double teamed and game-planned in every game, and was still unstoppable and unblockable. He won every meaningful college honor a defensive lineman could win as a senior. His production and film at Pitt is why NFL teams were salivating over an undersized DT from a 6-6 program, and why he went early despite concerns about his height and reach. He was a once in forever kind of college player.

Any top 5 list of Pitt greats that doesn’t have him in it is a joke.

 

[thebadby2]

One thing that has always bugged me was that Donald didn’t get heisman consideration. His final year was one of the best of all time, but Aidan Hutchinson made it to the finals with lesser stats. I’ll give you one guess why

You can thank Pitt being a perennial .500 or below football team during AD’d time there for that. You don’t see defensive players from nationally irrelevant programs get Heisman consideration, no matter how dominant they are, they are toiling in obscurity. You'd better believe if Pitt had been 11-1 and a CFP team AD's senior year, as Michigan was Hutch's senior year, he would have been a finalist. Another factor is the Heisman is decided by media people, and the DE position just has more sex appeal than the interior DL position. More sacks, splashier highlights, more face time on Sportscenter. If the Heisman voters were confined to football coaches, any of whom understood how impactful and dominant AD was, he would have been a finalist.

 

[W1np1tt]

Not putting Dan Marino in Pitt’s all time top 5? What a dipshit.

He accomplished what he wanted. He got everyone talking about this.