It's similar to us playing Duquesne at Consol. No matter who the "home team" is there are always more Pitt fans in attendance. Even when it wasn't a part of the season ticket packages. Except Michigan State was even more the "home team" at Auburn Hills than we are at Consol.
Pete Gillen on Pitt non-conference schedule.....
- Thread starter thebadby2
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It's similar to us playing Duquesne at Consol. No matter who the "home team" is there are always more Pitt fans in attendance. Even when it wasn't a part of the season ticket packages. Except Michigan State was even more the "home team" at Auburn Hills than we are at Consol.
Izzo has always espoused that scheduling tough OOC opponents helps get his teams ready for the postseaon battles in March. He has said he doesn't mind losing to a good oppoment in November or December, and that in fact those losses can be more beneficial in the long run than even wins. That's the gist of what I trying to say.
But hey, what does he know. You and Levance have this whole thing triangulated. Schedule a weak OOC, fluff up your record on the cupcakes such that it looks better than it is, get into the Dance, and get sent home after 1 or 2 games, usually by a lower or similarly seeded team. Is that about right?
I have been absolutely consistent in this thread. ANY schedule that allowed THIS TEAM to earn a bid was a good one. If Pitt is a preseason top-10 in 2017 or 2018, my opinion on scheduling will be different.
Are you suggesting that the only difference between Pitt and MSU this year is 2-3 OOC opponents? If so, I've got some bad news for you: this Pitt team isn't very good.
Take a look at the OOC schedules for each team that's currently in the AP top 10. I did that just for the hell of it. Only one-WVU--has a OOC that's as weak or weaker than ours, or even close. Read into that what you will.
Is there anything in any of my post in that thread that suggests that this discussion is limited to this season? I tend to agree with you and others that the weak OOC probably helped us this particular year, although I'd ask, to what end? If we get into the dance as a middling seed on false pretenses-namely, 11 gimme wins against funeral homes, tattoo parlors, etc and get ousted in the first or second round, what have we really accomplished? Another "yay we made it again" banner to hang in the Pete?
I'm honestly trying to find any consistency or logic in any of your responses. Are you suggesting that rather than "gaming the system" and making the first weekend of the NCAAs, you'd rather play in the NIT?
I have been clear and consistent. The only way you win a title is to make the field. Could Pitt have some miraculous run as a 7-10 seed? Who knows? You have to make the field to find out. Their "laughable" schedule will do that.
What point is there in thumping your chest about your SOS if you don't make the field? Wake Forest had way better OOC wins than us, and they totally flopped in conference.
I could not possibly care less what the SOS of anyone in the AP top-10 is because Pitt is nowhere near the AP top-10. I have criticized the scheduling plenty, but the fact is that Pitt hasn't had particularly good teams since 2011, which happens to coincide with some weaker schedules. They aren't squandering some great opportunity to be a 1-seed this year by having a lousy SOS. They are a bubble team who built enough of a resume to make the field. There are similar bubble teams who failed to do that. Dixon gets credit (from me) for being in the right side of it.
I think it should be said that there seems to be agreement in this thread that we could improve our OOC schedule. Where this agreement ends, however, is how much?
I think there is also a belief that the Pitt Fans are "getting bored" and that we need to bring in better opponents to the Pete. Plain and simply, that's really not going to happen. (And, heck, our fans didn't really even show up for Purdue).
However, I do think it would serve the program well to go on the road for a "true road game" every year (and this did not happen this year). Not going on the road is also why we take criticism from national pundits as we do.
As I've been saying, getting a "good" home and home, where we would go on the road the same year as our home game in the Big 10-ACC challenge, would go a long way to change perceptions of our schedule (perhaps not among our fans though).
Frankly, I'm not convinced one true road game woud change ANY "pundit's" opinion. These ARE the SAME guys who still prattle on about Pitt's physical defense, years after our defense ceased to be dominant. Misconceptions linger. To be honest, the lousy attendence is the bigger problem and I think unfortunately that won't change. This simply isn't a basketball town and selling out the Pete for about 10 years was probably more of a fluke than anything.
We are still playing what, 6 Top 15 games, plus another Top 25 and had two more Top 15 games scheduled pre-season.The fact Gonzaga faded after losing their 7-footer and Purdue also slid can't realy be blamed on us. Likewise, without Boeheim's suspension, Cuse would possibly be a Top 25 team.adding two more.
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They have better players. That's what I read into it. You think they are top 10 because they played a harder schedule?
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He also has better players most often, and can afford to. Way to pick one of the best teams/coaches in the country to compare Pitt to. again, they have better players, not to mention one of the best active coaches out there. THAT is why they win. You keep right on thinking it is because of their schedule.
No, no. Forget the players and the fact Izzo is great. Actually, he stinks. They are only any good because of playing 2 more tough OOC games than Pitt. Without that, they are Pitt.
Now you are saying not making the tourney and making the tourney and winning a game are the same? Wow.
I don't think anyone wants an OOC schedule against a murderers row of opponents ,but let them play four or five cupcakes at the start of season to get their sea legs ,then step up and play four or five decent opponents add in the Big Ten challenge and a WVU now you have some games that the paying fans might actually want to attend. Pitt needs fannies in those seats , you don't have to do anything to get the true college hoop fan ( season tickets holders who go see them play anyone ) to attend , but there's not enough of them. You can't even give the tickets away for free to some of their games. Losing one or two of those games won't cost them a bid if they play .500 or better ball in the conference and winning all those games won't get you in if your sub .500 in league play. Bottom line give the paying customer something .
That would be murderers row compared to every other team in the nation.
Most teams play 3-5 "tough" games, and that's it. Having road games against top teams doesn't get fannies in the seats either. Well, maybe every other year. And if we are losing more, maybe that doesn't get fannies in the seats either. If we are getting 4-5000 for low/mid majors (no idea what actual figures are), how many more show up for Seton Hall or Providence? WVU for sure would add fans. Georgetown probably some, but we're talking one game per year (unless someone is proposing we have the hardest schedule in NCAA). One game's attendance isn't likely going to matter one way t'or the other.
People keep saying losing one or two OOC doesn't matter. How about some facts. If we lost to WVU and Providence, instead of beating a couple of our lower opponents (pick two NOT part of a tourney that we had no choice on), what would our RPI be? Remember, almost ALL teams have at least 5 or so games against >200 RPI teams, so we wouldn't necessarily replace those. It would likely be a mix of teams like Detroit and Morehead St or something like that.
What the committee looks at is the ENTIRE schedule... not OOC only or conference only. The ENTIRE body of work is what matters.
Gonzaga and UConn play tough OOC schedules, and then very easy conference schedules. Pitt and Syracuse play very easy OOC schedules and then very tough conference schedules.
Pitt has played 14 games against the Top 100. With GT and the ACCT tourney coming, that number will be 16 or more.
That's a good schedule. It makes no difference if your tough games were in November (UConn, Gonzaga, Cincinnati) or if your tough games were in February. Actually, you could argue that it is better if your tough games are later, when you have a better idea of what your team's character is and have a more recent memory for the committee to look at.
Playing in a conference like the ACC gives Pitt a dozen or more games every year against tournament-calibre teams.... and most years multiple games against highly-ranked teams.
Next year... Pitt plays Duke, Louisville, Syracuse, and UNC *TWICE* each. They don't need a strong OOC schedule to impress the committee. Their CONFERENCE schedule will be a murderers row.
The *overall* body of work is what matters.
ps. LSU and Ohio State might already be in the dance if they had an 11-1 OOC record like Pitt. Because they stumbled so badly early, they haven't been able to overcome it... despite 11-6 records in their respective conferences.
pps. A stronger OOC won't help attendance much at all. Only 9,000 were at the Pete to see Top 15 (at the time) Purdue. Pitt's attendance problems are not related very much to the OOC opponents at all.
Gonzaga and UConn play tough OOC schedules, and then very easy conference schedules. Pitt and Syracuse play very easy OOC schedules and then very tough conference schedules.
Pitt has played 14 games against the Top 100. With GT and the ACCT tourney coming, that number will be 16 or more.
That's a good schedule. It makes no difference if your tough games were in November (UConn, Gonzaga, Cincinnati) or if your tough games were in February. Actually, you could argue that it is better if your tough games are later, when you have a better idea of what your team's character is and have a more recent memory for the committee to look at.
Playing in a conference like the ACC gives Pitt a dozen or more games every year against tournament-calibre teams.... and most years multiple games against highly-ranked teams.
Next year... Pitt plays Duke, Louisville, Syracuse, and UNC *TWICE* each. They don't need a strong OOC schedule to impress the committee. Their CONFERENCE schedule will be a murderers row.
The *overall* body of work is what matters.
ps. LSU and Ohio State might already be in the dance if they had an 11-1 OOC record like Pitt. Because they stumbled so badly early, they haven't been able to overcome it... despite 11-6 records in their respective conferences.
pps. A stronger OOC won't help attendance much at all. Only 9,000 were at the Pete to see Top 15 (at the time) Purdue. Pitt's attendance problems are not related very much to the OOC opponents at all.
BC: they schedule too tough and play more than 2
Syr: 2 Big East
UVa: GW, Cal, Nova
Wake: Xavier and usually an SEC
NCSU: SEC and 1 more
UNC: UK and 1 more (Texas this yeae)
GT: UGa and another SEC or this year they played 3 A10
Clemson: SC and 2 or 3 more SEC
FSU: Florida and 1 more
Pitt, ND, Duke, Miami, and VT play less than 2. Duke doesnt do home and homes. VT cant get anyone respectable to come to Blacksburg. Miami, ND, and Pitt usually elect to schedule soft.
More play 2 than you think.
It's going to take a combination of things to improve attendance . Winning is the biggest ingredient , Pitts also hasn't had a player that excites fans since Blair ( Adams didn't stay long enough ), years of poor marketing have caught up to them as their fan base as aged, and yes schedule . Playing a WVU will only sell out the Pete for one game ,but playing a few games before Jan. that people might like to actually go to won't hurt.
I would rather that Pitt play 2 home and homes. If that meant they didnt make the tournament, I would say that they were simply not good enough. If we play WVU at home next season and VCU, for example, away, and lose both and barely miss the NCAAT, I will not clamor for us to go back to scheduling UMES and Eastern Washingotn in their place so we can more easily make the NCAAT. If you cant go 1-1 against WVU and VCU and do enough in the ACC, you dont deserve the NCAAT.
$65 for upper deck endzone is simply way too much money to ask. That's why they couldnt sell them.
great post SMF, very well said. Similar to the football fans clamoring for more FCS and Mac games to reach bowl eligibility, if we cant win games against decent opponents, then we don't deserve a post season opportunity. Not interested in manufacturing ways into the tourney with smoke and mirrors.. If you need to do this, you aren't doing anything in tourney anyways, plus committee usually sees such antiques anyways..
Again, as DT keeps saying, NOBODY schedules the way many of our fans want us to schedule. ONE more tough opponent, probably on the road would have given us as good of a schedule as virtually anyone, yet would have done NOTHING to "give the paying customer something."
The ACC schedule rotation for the next few seasons, adds home and homes against 2 of the top 4 teams in the league Duke, UNC, Va and Miami added to our regular home and homes against Cuse and the Ville will give us very possibly TEN Top 25 games in-conference. (8 home and homes, plus single games aganst whichever two of those top 4 who aren't home and home) Given that ND, FSU or a Clemson or NC St. often slip into the Top 25 too, our overall SOS will already be among the highest in the country, without the ACC/BIG Challenge and whoever we play in our exempt tournament.
Hopefully, we will be building on a successful end of this season in 2016-17, but in 2017-18 we will be rebuilding, with an almost competely new roster. The schedule will already be stacked against a roster mainly composed of freshmen and sophomores, without adding a WVU-level opponent. There will be years when our conference schedule is milder and our team is more experienced, and hopefully more ready to be challenged with a tougher schedule. But until we are no longer being matched up with a "Murderer's Row" ACC slate, it would be dumb to strengthen our schedule appreciably.
Unfortunately, my signature phrase still applies to many if not most of our fans. We really don't understand what a representative schedule is.
Since we play UNC, SU, Duke and UL twice next year, why on earth would you see a need to "prove yourself" OOC? Unless you really don't want to see us in the tourney? It isn't smoke and mirrors. It's logic, something this board suffers a lack of quite frequently. Do you not see you can schedule yourself OUT of the tourney, unnecessarily? You are basically saying you want Pitt to have one of the top 10 schedules in the NCAA, and if we don't perform as a top 10 team, we don't deserve it anyway, while the other top teams have an easier schedule than us. Nice.
so in short, you want a two month pre-season until the real season starts in January.. Great, got it and to your credit, Dixon agrees with you. Just accept the negatives with this and no complaints about crowds that rival a weekday high school girls basketball game.
please see my response to Harve.. we are all entitled to our opinions, yours is to continue the 2 month pre-season schedule.. Great, I disagree. Unfortunately for me, the people that matter agree with you.. ON a positive note, tickets to the south west Arkansas state game are free at wendys when you purchase a frosty..Since we play UNC, SU, Duke and UL twice next year, why on earth would you see a need to "prove yourself" OOC. Unless you really don't want to see us in the tourney? It isn't smoke and mirrors. It's logic, something this board suffers a lack of quite frequently. Do you not see you can schedule yourself OUT of the tourney, unnecessarily? You are basically saying you want Pitt to have one of the top 10 schedules in the NCAA, and if we don't perform as a top 10 team, we don't deserve it anyway, while the other top teams have an easier schedule than us. Nice.
Since we had 3000 empty seats for Top 15 ranked Purdue this year, your assertion that a better OOC schedule would help attendance is false.
It's a chicken or egg thing. You gotta have success to get players and you gotta have players to have success. Missing the tournament is a very good way for recruiting to get WORSE, so the argument that we wouldn't deserve to be in the tournament becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy quickly.
And one more time, most people don't understand that our overall SOS is very close to what everyone plays. It's right there with the top BPI teams. Elite teams get more marquee OOC games via "made for TV" match-ups. That is the main difference. If the Gonzaga game wasn't canceled, (and their star 7-footer injured which made them a bubble team instead of a Top 25, ) , our schedule would look better.
You care about ticket sales. I care about making the Tourney. I am happy with my position. Your prefer NIT games and more exciting regular season games on the road. Fine. I just don't understand why though.
look at some of these ooc games, it's literally 36 students and a few of the players parents.. Media members don't even go, they send an intern instead. I saw one girl there in media area playing solitaire on her laptop..
You mean other than the 3-5 decent OOC games we already play? Nice straw man. That's pretty easy to blow down.
you don't understand why fans would rather see their team play a real program instead of central Washington and western Arkansas and win by 53 points? Honestly, you need that explained to you??
identify these 5 decent OOC games to me, I obviously missed them. It's not my straw man, well it is but I am not the only one.. Keep thinking it's me making this up and i'll keep posting links to articles written by national writers saying the same thing..
Kiwi, you are a good poster and we are gonna go back and forth. I do this a lot with regards to the football OOC. it is what it is, difference of opinion. I cant speak to the overall better strategy in regards to resume building and RPI strength, I just know I really like watching pitt basketball play competitive games against teams that are good. If Pitt is playing a good team, it makes my whole day. If pitt is playing a team where they can win by 50, I cant get too excited about that and honestly, dont' think it's crazy to say they gain very little from this and are probably better off just practicing.
I know we disagree and if any changes are made, it's not to appease making my day more enjoyable. So we should respectfully agree to disagree..
I know we disagree and if any changes are made, it's not to appease making my day more enjoyable. So we should respectfully agree to disagree..
I do understand it. They are ignorant of college hoops and don't know any better. That's pretty apparent actually. Some fans would have us play no cupcakes. Already in this thread some suggested we have the most difficult schedule, OOC + Conference, than any other school in the nation. That is what makes no sense.
It's a difference of opinion based on one poster being ignorant of the process. I can accept that. Have a nice day.
one person??? you are an apologist kiwi and unable to look at anything towards pitt unless it's overly optimistic. Don't take this the wrong way but you are blind to objectivity and that makes your opinion useless.. nothing wrong with that, all teams have your types, just don't get upset when no one takes you serious.. That's all I have to say about that, last word is all yours..
So we all agree then that it takes a perfect confluence of events for Pitt fans to show up (tip time, day of week, strength of opponent, other things not going on, we can probably throw in weather and construction and traffic as well).
Yep, sounds like a Pitt problem. I'm sure a small tweak here or there is all it'll take to fill the place up to the 80% capacity it was for the non-UConn/Syracuse/Villanova games in the Big East days.
I was there for all the years people yearn for. The idea that we packed the place for any old team that came through is a complete and total myth brought on by hefty doses of revisionist history and a complete lack of accountability.
Attendance isn't down because of the OOC. Attendance is down because when has Pitt ever consistently drawn well for anything, let alone a sport most of the city couldn't really be bothered with?
There are probably only two ways Pitt is ever going to get regular sellouts again. One is to get to a Final Four, or at least an Elite Eight. The other is to go through a prolonged period of missing the NCAAs, followed by another period of high seeds. Casual fans are bored, they need a bandwagon to jump on.
And even in those scenarios, when it comes to getting some prolonged support the only way that happens is probably more the latter. You might see a one-year bump after a deep run to get the casual fans back, but something like that won't catapult Pitt into the upper echelon of the sport so they'll become disenchanted as soon as Pitt doesn't repeat the feat.
