PIAA takes SMF's advice

[Sean Miller Fan]

They are doing almost exactly what I proposed.

- Separate state tournaments for public schools and private schools

- A "tournament of champions" at the end between all the classification winners to crown 1 state champion (not sure how they will incorporate the extra football games)

The only thing they didn't listen to me on was I said charter schools should play with the private schools in a division which isn't bound by geography

 

[HOF Coach]

They are doing almost exactly what I proposed.

- Separate state tournaments for public schools and private schools

- A "tournament of champions" at the end between all the classification winners to crown 1 state champion (not sure how they will incorporate the extra football games)

The only thing they didn't listen to me on was I said charter schools should play with the private schools in a division which isn't bound by geography

 

[HOF Coach]

They are doing almost exactly what I proposed.

- Separate state tournaments for public schools and private schools

- A "tournament of champions" at the end between all the classification winners to crown 1 state champion (not sure how they will incorporate the extra football games)

The only thing they didn't listen to me on was I said charter schools should play with the private schools in a division which isn't bound by geography

You still have time to convince them on that final point!

 

[GT74]

SMF, you are only one of many out there that wanted a separation of public and private schools. This legislation finally came about and has backing. There are some dissenters of the Charter School issue however. Boundary vs. non-boundary is sensible, but it goes against the Charter School is a public school classification. I believe that it should be boundary and non-boundary and have discussed it with Aaron Bernstine, a leader of the legislation. He continually emphasized that they needed a compromise to get it off the ground, and I guess this legislation is. The transfer rule caught me off-guard though.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

It's as if SMF doesn't know the difference between the PIAA and a Pennsylvania state legislator.

Not surprisingly.

 

[HailToPitt725]

Question, or maybe food for thought: If this goes through against the wishes of the WPIAL, along with past grievances such as the updated classifications, would the WPIAL ever consider breaking off from the PIAA, become its own separate entity and the football season ending after Heinz?

If something like this ever happened, how would such a system work?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Question, or maybe food for thought: If this goes through against the wishes of the WPIAL, along with past grievances such as the updated classifications, would the WPIAL ever consider breaking off from the PIAA, become its own separate entity and the football season ending after Heinz?

If there is a law implemented in PA that says that kids who transfer into a new school are immediately eligible to play sports in their new district with no restrictions it won't matter if the WPIAL is part of the PIAA or not. The WPIAL would still have to follow state law.

 

[Cap pitt]

They are doing almost exactly what I proposed.

- Separate state tournaments for public schools and private schools

- A "tournament of champions" at the end between all the classification winners to crown 1 state champion (not sure how they will incorporate the extra football games)

The only thing they didn't listen to me on was I said charter schools should play with the private schools in a division which isn't bound by geography

Before you blow your own horn, This has been brought up many time in the past, many times

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Question, or maybe food for thought: If this goes through against the wishes of the WPIAL, along with past grievances such as the updated classifications, would the WPIAL ever consider breaking off from the PIAA, become its own separate entity and the football season ending after Heinz?

If something like this ever happened, how would such a system work?

The bottom line is this is non-profit HS sports. If a kid is going to a certain school, he should be eligible to play for that school. If he wants to live with his aunt in another district for a couple months to play for that team, so be it. If that's the best thing for that kid, then why should anyone stand in the way? Could, say, a group of 5 players from different areas all "move" to the same school district to create a dream team? Yea, but so what. Its non-profit HS sports. If they want to do that, have at it.

 

[BuffetParrothead]

They are doing almost exactly what I proposed.

- Separate state tournaments for public schools and private schools

- A "tournament of champions" at the end between all the classification winners to crown 1 state champion (not sure how they will incorporate the extra football games)

The only thing they didn't listen to me on was I said charter schools should play with the private schools in a division which isn't bound by geography

If they are doing what you/SMF proposed they need to be replaced!

It can't be a good decision!

Your hit rate 1 out of 1,000 which is almost 0.0 except for rounding?

 

[McKee Place]

The bottom line is this is non-profit HS sports. If a kid is going to a certain school, he should be eligible to play for that school. If he wants to live with his aunt in another district for a couple months to play for that team, so be it. If that's the best thing for that kid, then why should anyone stand in the way? Could, say, a group of 5 players from different areas all "move" to the same school district to create a dream team? Yea, but so what. Its non-profit HS sports. If they want to do that, have at it.

You're one of the type that would scream at the galling idea that a student poorly served by the public school of her area (because it isn't meeting whatever needs adequately, similar to the hypothetical athletes you advocate for) should be able to attend an alternate school, perhaps even, gasp, a private or parochial school, without being double dipped for school taxes and tuition.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

You're one of the type that would scream at the galling idea that a student poorly served by the public school of her area (because it isn't meeting whatever needs adequately, similar to the hypothetical athletes you advocate for) should be able to attend an alternate school, perhaps even, gasp, a private or parochial school, without being double dipped for school taxes and tuition.

I have always said there shouldn't be school districts. If you live in Clairton but want to go to school in Upper St Clair and have transportation to get there, go for it. But, I HATE HATE HATE charter schools, which are for-profit scams designed to make a few people rich.

However, the whole idea of using standardized test scores to determine which schools are failing is incredibly stupid. PSSA test results simply show DNA. The smarter the parents in your school district are, the higher your school district will rank on those standardized tests.

 

[BuffetParrothead]

I have always said there shouldn't be school districts. If you live in Clairton but want to go to school in Upper St Clair and have transportation to get there, go for it. But, I HATE HATE HATE charter schools, which are for-profit scams designed to make a few people rich.

However, the whole idea of using standardized test scores to determine which schools are failing is incredibly stupid. PSSA test results simply show DNA. The smarter the parents in your school district are, the higher your school district will rank on those standardized tests.

So SMF how do you propose people who would like to public school out of district pay for that school??? School taxes vary a lot from the worst districts to the best.

How would a school district plan for sizing schools, teachers, class size if any Tom, Dick, and Jane kid can decide to attend better schools in good school districts.

Stay in your own district where you pay taxes or pay the going rate to attend a better public HS which is the process in place now.

You have a lot of ideas bouncing around in that head of yours most of which make no sense.

Where we live in PA we pay higher school taxes than most and our schools are really good! So are the
neighborhoods, and for the most part the parents are involved in their child's education.
Class size is manageable, facilities are adequate, teacher pay is med to high which attracts the best teachers.
That's the way it's supposed to work.

Why would we want students who pay half of what we pay in school taxes to come to our schools.

When there's no skin in the game people spend less time trying to keep a good thing good.

Mrs Buffett and I are fans of public schools.
Charter Schools give some people a choice.
They work ok for kids who don't fit in, but those same kids won't fit into society when they graduate so their problem continues in the real world on a larger scale!

Fyi- there are a lot of smart parents in failing inner city schools.
Are you calling all inner city people not smart??

Standarized tests aren't much of a measure anything. Real time academics are!
A lot of "rich kids" who are top students, do poorly on standardized tests just like not so rich kids, and do very well in college and in the real world.
Conversely a lot of kids from the inner cities do well on those same tests!
I read a survey which said the only part of standardized tests that favors middle class and above kids is vocabulary otherwise it's fairly even if the kid puts so effort into HS.

 

[McKee Place]

Charter schools are mostly dubious, I won't disagree. A bad non-solution to an important issue (school choice) that nobody wants to touch politically.

Which means hard suffering parents for whom the public school doesn't work, for whatever reason (typically far more harrowing than frivolous athletics)... get not just double but TRIPLE charged. For the public school that doesn't work; the charter schools that districts (thus taxpayers) must fund; and their own tuition.

Far more important of an issue than athletic transfers. But i realize this is a sports board so it's appropriate fodder to discuss. Just wanted to put into context (yeah, and whine a bit).

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

So SMF how do you propose people who would like to public school out of district pay for that school??? School taxes vary a lot from the worst districts to the best.

How would a school district plan for sizing schools, teachers, class size if any Tom, Dick, and Jane kid can decide to attend better schools in good school districts.

Stay in your own district where you pay taxes or pay the going rate to attend a better public HS which is the process in place now.

You have a lot of ideas bouncing around in that head of yours most of which make no sense.

Where we live in PA we pay higher school taxes than most and our schools are really good! So are the
neighborhoods, and for the most part the parents are involved in their child's education.
Class size is manageable, facilities are adequate, teacher pay is med to high which attracts the best teachers.
That's the way it's supposed to work.

Why would we want students who pay half of what we pay in school taxes to come to our schools.

When there's no skin in the game people spend less time trying to keep a good thing good.

Mrs Buffett and I are fans of public schools.
Charter Schools give some people a choice.
They work ok for kids who don't fit in, but those same kids won't fit into society when they graduate so their problem continues in the real world on a larger scale!

Fyi- there are a lot of smart parents in failing inner city schools.
Are you calling all inner city people not smart??

Standarized tests aren't much of a measure anything. Real time academics are!
A lot of "rich kids" who are top students, do poorly on standardized tests just like not so rich kids, and do very well in college and in the real world.
Conversely a lot of kids from the inner cities do well on those same tests!
I read a survey which said the only part of standardized tests that favors middle class and above kids is vocabulary otherwise it's fairly even if the kid puts so effort into HS.

Eliminate school property taxes, school districts, and locally run school boards. Increase the state income tax or sales tax to offset the loss of property tax revenue. All schools become state schools. Teachers are paid the same everywhere (with cost of living variances) and all schools have roughly the same demographic mixture. No more rich schools, poor schools, white schools, black schools, etc. I will say this will never happen but it should.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

all schools have roughly the same demographic mixture.

Imagine the school day for the kid busing from Pittsburgh to, say, Somerset so that all the schools would end up with roughly the same demographic mix. Or the kid going from Harrisburg to Tioga County.

I mean seriously, did you ever give even a moments thought to what a plan like that would actually entail, or is this another one of those things that popped into your head so you assumed it must be a good idea?

 

[Mikefln]

Eliminate school property taxes, school districts, and locally run school boards. Increase the state income tax or sales tax to offset the loss of property tax revenue. All schools become state schools. Teachers are paid the same everywhere (with cost of living variances) and all schools have roughly the same demographic mixture. No more rich schools, poor schools, white schools, black schools, etc. I will say this will never happen but it should.

So every single person who bought a home in USC/Mt Lebo/ NA/ South Fayete and a few other districts should take a hit on their home values for your "solution" that solves no problems?

Do you really think your solution raises the bar for the

Imagine the school day for the kid busing from Pittsburgh to, say, Somerset so that all the schools would end up with roughly the same demographic mix. Or the kid going from Harrisburg to Tioga County.

I mean seriously, did you ever give even a moments thought to what a plan like that would actually entail, or is this another one of those things that popped into your head so you assumed it must be a good idea?

Agree. On top of that, the results would be no different in class room performance among groups by and large. Kids from strong families who value education would still be the ones performing best in these mixed demographic schools. The kids from families who do not emphasize education will still perform poorly. Will there be exceptions? Yes but what I stated will still be the reality for the most part.

Then this would hurt families in these better school districts. Not only do they pay more for taxes they also paid a premium on their house to live in these better districrd. If a rule like that took effect, many good honest middle class families would lose a sizable amount of their wealth as there would be no need to pay that premium. Not every person who lives in those neighborhoods are rich. Losing $20-30,000 on home value will hurt many of these families.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I think kids should be able to transfer wherever they want to transfer for whatever reasons they want to transfer. I don’t think it is up to any governing body to tell any family why they can or cannot transfer from one school to another. Provided they are following all the legal requirements, they should have free reign to go where they like.

However, I am ultimately against this legislation because it doesn’t solve anything. First of all, the rule which allows players to transfer from one school to another provided they have not played in 50% of their games is just really dumb.

It should be that to be eligible, you must transfer before the start of the school year. I could even live with the notion that you must transfer before your school’s season has begun. However, allowing them to play half their season for one school and then having free reign to transfer somewhere else – that is a very bad idea as you really are opening up Pandora’s box.

Now, if a kid isn’t getting enough playing time, or if he doesn’t like the coach, or if he doesn’t like another player on the team, or if he just thinks that another nearby school has a better chance to go far in the playoffs with him, he is effectively incentivized to transfer. That’s not good for anyone.

Also, including charter schools with the public schools is just plain ridiculous. A lot of them, particularly in the Philadelphia area, are basically glorified AAU outfits. Now, we’re going to clear their way to recruit more for competitive gain by getting rid of the Catholic schools?

Dumb.

I know why they have made this choice – the GOP has been trying to sell this fantasy for a long time, that Charter schools are a great option for kids who are unhappy in their public schools. Unfortunately, the actual data pretty conclusively says otherwise.

If you have truancy or behavioral issues in a public school, they don’t magically go away at a charter or a cyber charter school. In fact, with less structure and supervision, they often get worse, sometimes far worse.

Now, there are instances where a charter school does work out for a family. I would be remiss if I failed to acknowledge that fact because it does happen. However, it is not at all common.

This proposal does remove the Catholic schools and Christian academies from the mix – which is a good thing. I don’t think they should be competing directly with public schools for a lot of reasons. However, what problem have you really solved if you just take out the Catholic schools that recruit and replace them with charter schools that also recruit (Lincoln Park)? Who is this good for besides the charter schools?

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

Eliminate school property taxes, school districts, and locally run school boards. Increase the state income tax or sales tax to offset the loss of property tax revenue. All schools become state schools. Teachers are paid the same everywhere (with cost of living variances) and all schools have roughly the same demographic mixture. No more rich schools, poor schools, white schools, black schools, etc. I will say this will never happen but it should.

It will never happen because it's incredibly stupid on multiple fronts.

 

[RaleighPittFan]

Eliminate school property taxes, school districts, and locally run school boards. Increase the state income tax or sales tax to offset the loss of property tax revenue. All schools become state schools. Teachers are paid the same everywhere (with cost of living variances) and all schools have roughly the same demographic mixture. No more rich schools, poor schools, white schools, black schools, etc. I will say this will never happen but it should.

Not to suggest that you put 30 seconds of thought into this "idea" of yours, but how far do you expect some black kids, and some rich kids (of whatever race they are) to ride a bus to make you magical same demographic mixture (as if that will somehow be utopia)?

The elementary school I went to in Washington, Pa (Clark School) had a fair share of all races, and all of the kids walked to school.

We moved to Marion Center, and there was one black family in the school district, and no "rich" kids.

In this scenario, your progressive attempt to make everyone the same would really negatively impact a great deal of the minority children.

Not exactly fair, now is it?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Not to suggest that you put 30 seconds of thought into this "idea" of yours, but how far do you expect some black kids, and some rich kids (of whatever race they are) to ride a bus to make you magical same demographic mixture (as if that will somehow be utopia)?

The elementary school I went to in Washington, Pa (Clark School) had a fair share of all races, and all of the kids walked to school.

We moved to Marion Center, and there was one black family in the school district, and no "rich" kids.

In this scenario, your progressive attempt to make everyone the same would really negatively impact a great deal of the minority children.

Not exactly fair, now is it?

Transportation would only be provided semi-locally. Kids wouldn't be bussing from Pittsburgh to Somerset. If a Clairton kid wants to go to USC, he's gotta find a ride there. Or maybe just settle for TJ or EF. Basically think about it like college admissions. Each school should be accepting a certain percentage of students from all demographics to ensure diversity and fairness

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

So every single person who bought a home in USC/Mt Lebo/ NA/ South Fayete and a few other districts should take a hit on their home values.

Yep but they will be excited to know their riches are providing a better education for those kids who didn't hit the birth lottery

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Transportation would only be provided semi-locally. Kids wouldn't be bussing from Pittsburgh to Somerset. If a Clairton kid wants to go to USC, he's gotta find a ride there. Or maybe just settle for TJ or EF. Basically think about it like college admissions. Each school should be accepting a certain percentage of students from all demographics to ensure diversity and fairness

So it only took you one post to walk back your notion of all schools having roughly the same demographic mix.

Might be a record for you.

 

[Mikefln]

Yep but they will be excited to know their riches are providing a better education for those kids who didn't hit the birth lottery

Your clueless. I am middle class and I made the choice to make sacrifices to pay the premium and taxes to live in USC instead of Keystone Oaks, Chartiers Valley and the dozens of other good but not great schools. Many of the friends I made here in USC have same middle class stories. No I would not and doubt my friends and others would either be happy taking a cut to wealth for a solution that will not work.

 

[RaleighPittFan]

Transportation would only be provided semi-locally. Kids wouldn't be bussing from Pittsburgh to Somerset. If a Clairton kid wants to go to USC, he's gotta find a ride there. Or maybe just settle for TJ or EF. Basically think about it like college admissions. Each school should be accepting a certain percentage of students from all demographics to ensure diversity and fairness

You still didn't answer the question of how a school in the middle of BFE Pa would be expected to "accept a certain percentage of students from all demographics to ensure diversity and fairness" when a lot of the demographic classifications don't exist in those counties.

It's okay if you just stop, if you admit it's a foolhardy, ill conceived plan.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

You still didn't answer the question of how a school in the middle of BFE Pa would be expected to "accept a certain percentage of students from all demographics to ensure diversity and fairness" when a lot of the demographic classifications don't exist in those counties.

It's okay if you just stop, if you admit it's a foolhardy, ill conceived plan.

You people have to use common sense. Some school in Clearfield County will still probably be 99% white simply because no minorities live within 100 miles. Common sense people, common sense.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Your clueless. I am middle class and I made the choice to make sacrifices to pay the premium and taxes to live in USC instead of Keystone Oaks, Chartiers Valley and the dozens of other good but not great schools. Many of the friends I made here in USC have same middle class stories. No I would not and doubt my friends and others would either be happy taking a cut to wealth for a solution that will not work.

Your story is a sad one. Having to make sacrifices to send your kid to a good PUBLIC school. You are the poster boy for my plan. Coulda stayed in Dormont and still sent your kids to USC.

 

[Mikefln]

Your story is a sad one. Having to make sacrifices to send your kid to a good PUBLIC school. You are the poster boy for my plan. Coulda stayed in Dormont and still sent your kids to USC.

Moron your solution would make USC not a good school. USC isn't a great school because they have the best teachers and programs, it is a great school because the families in the community demand it. If they start allowing kids from families who do not share that value it becomes average real quick. That is all your solution does, it turn great schools to average schools while average schools stay average and crap schools stay crap schools. Your solution raises no bar, just lowers it.

 

[RaleighPittFan]

You people have to use common sense. Some school in Clearfield County will still probably be 99% white simply because no minorities live within 100 miles. Common sense people, common sense.

Do you see the irony of that post?

YOU are the one who said ALL schools would be the same. YOU.

No one else is making outrageous claims by simply pointing out that YOUR plan isn't a real life option. You can't blame others for a lack of common sense when they are pointing out your deficiency in the department of common sense.

But, typical of your thought process.

 

[Mikefln]

Your story is a sad one. Having to make sacrifices to send your kid to a good PUBLIC school. You are the poster boy for my plan. Coulda stayed in Dormont and still sent your kids to USC.

Also I am doing fine now, but when I moved here when I was 28 it was a struggle and I was happy to do so. Others can make the choice also or not. That is the point of America. Make a choice and live with it good or bad

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Do you see the irony of that post?

YOU are the one who said ALL schools would be the same. YOU.

No one else is making outrageous claims by simply pointing out that YOUR plan isn't a real life option. You can't blame others for a lack of common sense when they are pointing out your deficiency in the department of common sense.

But, typical of your thought process.

It's hilarious that he doesn't seem to realize that he just said that his original post lacks common sense.

 

[RaleighPittFan]

It's hilarious that he doesn't seem to realize that he just said that his original post lacks common sense.

SMF: Make outrageous comment.

Everyone else: Hey, SMF, (being polite) your plan won't work, because A,B,C,D, and E aren't viable solutions, and here's why .........

SMF: Your examples are silly. Then alters his statement because he sees part of his misjudgement.

Everybody else: Our examples are the outcomes of your plan.

SMF: You should have read what I'm now thinking, not what I wrote earlier.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Moron your solution would make USC not a good school. USC isn't a great school because they have the best teachers and programs, it is a great school because the families in the community demand it. If they start allowing kids from families who do not share that value it becomes average real quick. That is all your solution does, it turn great schools to average schools while average schools stay average and crap schools stay crap schools. Your solution raises no bar, just lowers it.

You are correct in that USC isn't a great school because they have the best teachers and programs. It is considered to be a great school because the parents of the kids are smart, passing their good genes down to their kids, and they put a higher value on education than most other districts and that leads to high standardized test scores. While there's not much you can do about which genes you inherit, opening up, say 10-20% of USC's enrollment to less-advantaged kids would help those kids greatly. Being in a school environment like that would change their lives for the better, most of them anyway. And it would benefit your normal USC kids as they make friends with kids of all different backgrounds and start understanding the world from different points of view.

The entire "school district" system we use is just legalized segregation. These are PUBLIC schools. All PUBLIC schools should be generally the same. All PA kids should be given an equal shot. Raise income taxes, get rid of school districts and school property taxes and level the playing field for everybody. There's no reason why Clairton kids should be going to a majority black school with a high percentage of family poverty while kids in the same zip code go to TJ, a majority white middle class to upper middle class school. Legalized segregation Cant believe we as a people allow that.

 

[pittdan77]

I'm not sure why any of you are wringing your hands over the potential of some kid from the wrong neighborhood coming to your kid's school. This legislation will certainly be followed up with a school voucher program that will funnel more money away from the poorer districts.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I'm not sure why any of you are wringing your hands over the potential of some kid from the wrong neighborhood coming to your kid's school. This legislation will certainly be followed up with a school voucher program that will funnel more money away from the poorer districts.

Wolf correctly vetoed the plan to have the public pay to send kids to private schools.

 

[pittdan77]

Wolf correctly vetoed the plan to have the public pay to send kids to private schools.

Doesn't mean it won't come up again. And again. And again.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

You are correct in that USC isn't a great school because they have the best teachers and programs. It is considered to be a great school because the parents of the kids are smart, passing their good genes down to their kids, and they put a higher value on education than most other districts and that leads to high standardized test scores.

Actually, you're both right and wrong. USC's education is better because of the kids, and the teachers, and the curriculum. It's a combination.

GPAs are not created equal across districts. It's why colleges don't care about GPA (unless it's low) and place the emphasis on SAT/ACT scores.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Actually, you're both right and wrong. USC's education is better because of the kids, and the teachers, and the curriculum. It's a combination.

GPAs are not created equal across districts. It's why colleges don't care about GPA (unless it's low) and place the emphasis on SAT/ACT scores.

OK

60% DNA
35% Parenting
3% Teachers
2% Curriculum

 

[BuffetParrothead]

Eliminate school property taxes, school districts, and locally run school boards. Increase the state income tax or sales tax to offset the loss of property tax revenue. All schools become state schools. Teachers are paid the same everywhere (with cost of living variances) and all schools have roughly the same demographic mixture. No more rich schools, poor schools, white schools, black schools, etc. I will say this will never happen but it should.

Thankfully it will never happen.
Everyone would overrun the best schools; and fhe best schools would eventually become just like the worst schools.

You are the perfect socialist.

 

[BuffetParrothead]

It will never happen because it's incredibly stupid on multiple fronts.

The post of the thread.