Recruiting

[gary2]

First let me state that I know nothing about the JCT Clark and very little about Kithcart. That said, this year's recruiting appears to be disappointing once again.

A class that would have included C.Moore/M.White, M.Powell and Marfo/Konate would have at least been somewhat reassuring.

I feel the team will be good to very good this year. If Nix is a player, we might be middle of the pack the following year. After that, the current make up of our roster is scary and I do not mean scary good either. Recruiting has to improve.

Barton should go. Demote him to director of basketball operations if you must keep him, but he needs replaced as a recruiter AND coach.

I have defended Knight over and again but if replacing Barton does not get recruiting improved, I think you have to look at Knight also. We are not doing well in Jersey and New York. We were unable to secure either of the Gibbs brothers and could not even persuade Powell to visit. There were other failings as well.

Penn State has proven that Eastern Pa can be a source for players. We need to hire someone who can
re-establish us in that area.

Our targeted recruiting area should include: WPA, PA, NY, NJ, Ohio and VA - MD - DC. We should also recruit big cities like Chicago and Detroit. We need to have recruiters who can succeed in these areas.

I know next year will be a huge recruiting opportunity with 6 ships to give, but why would anyone expect the current staff to recruit any better than they have? We need a staff shakeup now.

 

[Jeffburgh]

First let me state that I know nothing about the JCT Clark and very little about Kithcart. That said, this year's recruiting appears to be disappointing once again.

A class that would have included C.Moore/M.White, M.Powell and Marfo/Konate would have at least been somewhat reassuring.

I feel the team will be good to very good this year. If Nix is a player, we might be middle of the pack the following year. After that, the current make up of our roster is scary and I do not mean scary good either. Recruiting has to improve.

Barton should go. Demote him to director of basketball operations if you must keep him, but he needs replaced as a recruiter AND coach.

I have defended Knight over and again but if replacing Barton does not get recruiting improved, I think you have to look at Knight also. We are not doing well in Jersey and New York. We were unable to secure either of the Gibbs brothers and could not even persuade Powell to visit. There were other failings as well.

Penn State has proven that Eastern Pa can be a source for players. We need to hire someone who can
re-establish us in that area.

Our targeted recruiting area should include: WPA, PA, NY, NJ, Ohio and VA - MD - DC. We should also recruit big cities like Chicago and Detroit. We need to have recruiters who can succeed in these areas.

I know next year will be a huge recruiting opportunity with 6 ships to give, but why would anyone expect the current staff to recruit any better than they have? We need a staff shakeup now.

I have knocked Barton as much as anyone, but two of the three recruits were his leads - Kithkart and Clark.

I also was very underwhelmed by Kithkart when we got a heads up on him on the pay side mid August.

HOWEVER, he has grown on me a lot the more I dug around and watched video and read up on him. I don't want to oversell him, but I think he might in fact be a pretty darn good player. He is the best athlete we have seen as a lead guard under JD, he also has NYC type toughness and grit. Is a hard worker, competitive. He is THAT type of guy, IMO confident and tough.

Clark might be an early catch, if he would have played this year and signed in the spring, he likely would look a good bit different to people, someone who would have had a lot more offers and from a lot of P5 programs.

Maginault has really good bloodlines, and was playing really well until his leg injury.

Look, I agree, I was hoping for Moore and would have liked to have seen Powell. However, I think they targeted defense (which was why they proioritized Kithcart, White and now Clark in part, and maybe why they didn't really press on Powell ...). I genuinely think they had Kithcart as their second or third PG they liked ...

Smoke, Knight and Barton aren't going anywhere. JD has said he thinks their biggest problem with recruiting has been staff continuity. He isn't going to choose to throw a wrench into that again. They do have a good number of offers to 2017 kids, a lot more in the NJ and Northeast area ...

 

[JS School]

If Barton was able to identify a good JUCO who was in a situation where he could redshirt and then play three years at Pitt, I'd say he did a good job. Same with Millington. He may have identified a kid that wasn't going to get into Florida Gulf Coast for some reason, but knew he could qualify here. Maybe his job is to find guys like this, who knows. Perhaps he is the staff expert on academics. That may sound far fetched, but we are all guessing at what he does, anyhow.

 

[gary2]

I have knocked Barton as much as anyone, but two of the three recruits were his leads - Kithkart and Clark.

I also was very underwhelmed by Kithkart when we got a heads up on him on the pay side mid August.

HOWEVER, he has grown on me a lot the more I dug around and watched video and read up on him. I don't want to oversell him, but I think he might in fact be a pretty darn good player. He is the best athlete we have seen as a lead guard under JD, he also has NYC type toughness and grit. Is a hard worker, competitive. He is THAT type of guy, IMO confident and tough.

Clark might be an early catch, if he would have played this year and signed in the spring, he likely would look a good bit different to people, someone who would have had a lot more offers and from a lot of P5 programs.

Maginault has really good bloodlines, and was playing really well until his leg injury.

Look, I agree, I was hoping for Moore and would have liked to have seen Powell. However, I think they targeted defense (which was why they proioritized Kithcart, White and now Clark in part, and maybe why they didn't really press on Powell ...). I genuinely think they had Kithcart as their second or third PG they liked ...

Smoke, Knight and Barton aren't going anywhere. JD has said he thinks their biggest problem with recruiting has been staff continuity. He isn't going to choose to throw a wrench into that again. They do have a good number of offers to 2017 kids, a lot more in the NJ and Northeast area ...

I hope Kithkart and Clark turn out to be players (and I think Kithkart might). The fact that Barton was their lead recruiter makes me more than uneasy. Harve has stated that Barton is the recruiter that searches the depths. I would hope we are not searching the depths again in this current recruiting season.

What I do know is the current staff has harvested these recruits:

2014 - Luther and C.Johnson (neither highly recruited and not likely to be stars on a good team) Haughton (JC - we know how that turned out!)

2015 - Wilson (highly ranked - probable starter at some point), Nix and Milligan (JCs not highly recruited - ?s)

2016 - Manigault, Kithkart, Clark and ??? (Manigault top 150, Kithkart a possible fit, Clark JC a ? and ? a ?.)

The above is a horrible recruiting haul over three years. We should maintain staff continuity to continue this?

If the plan is to try to piece a team together each year (with grad transfers and forcing people out each season) rather than try to build a team that will be good for years, then by all means stay the course. I think Jamie brought in 3 good grad transfers this season. I just do not think you can sustain success with that approach.

 

[cruzer]

Without looking at each of the individual players involved, the concern I have is that we are seemingly dependent on a combination of 5th year transfers and JUCO's as our primary recruits. While there is nothing wrong with adding these types of players as part of an overall equation, I really don't see us challenging the ACC elite with a bunch of 5th year transfers and JUCO's as the primary recruiting pipeline. Pretty concerning.

Cruzer

 

[Pittbaseball11]

They got really lucky with Cameron Johnson, IMO.

In general, I don't think their recruiting has been that different than their strongest years (on the court, that is) aside from the increased presence with JUCOs. And that's a trend that's happening across college sports.

They're mostly back to getting kids in the 90-150ish range. Rivals' write-up on Kithcart said he barely missed their most recent Top 150 update.

 

[Jeffburgh]

I hope Kithkart and Clark turn out to be players (and I think Kithkart might). The fact that Barton was their lead recruiter makes me more than uneasy. Harve has stated that Barton is the recruiter that searches the depths. I would hope we are not searching the depths again in this current recruiting season.

What I do know is the current staff has harvested these recruits:

2014 - Luther and C.Johnson (neither highly recruited and not likely to be stars on a good team) Haughton (JC - we know how that turned out!)

2015 - Wilson (highly ranked - probable starter at some point), Nix and Milligan (JCs not highly recruited - ?s)

2016 - Manigault, Kithkart, Clark and ??? (Manigault top 150, Kithkart a possible fit, Clark JC a ? and ? a ?.)

The above is a horrible recruiting haul over three years. We should maintain staff continuity to continue this?
No, they maintain staff continuity to AVOID 2014 and 2015.

NOW, I have reservations about these guys as recruiters in a good portion, too. I am just saying, JD's point is that 15 and this year are the result of turnover. They had a primary recruiter jump and lose the two kids they had in hand, Herrion and the local kid. His point is that cutting the current guys loose sets them up to have the same kind of results.

Again, they have offers out to a number of kids in the next class, presumably BK is a key guy with the NJ kids, Smoke is the key guy with some. Dixon axes either at the end of the season and they just threw away the relationships they are starting to build

If the plan is to try to piece a team together each year (with grad transfers and forcing people out each season) rather than try to build a team that will be good for years, then by all means stay the course. I think Jamie brought in 3 good grad transfers this season. I just do not think you can sustain success with that approach.

They had a multi layed recruiting approach, they took a shot at high end targets like the SF from Philly and the stud PG who went to MSU, but Kithcart and White were their plan B guys.

They got one, missed on the other.

So, they got Maginault early, and there was some good competition for him, and Kithkart, who again, IMO, was in their minds a top 100 type kid. To them, he wasn't a fall back.

Clark was a fall back and it looks like fall backs, unless they hold the fourth for the spring and get involved with someone in the late cycle.

IMO, they waited to long to pot commit on some guys, were in a bit of holding pattern on the big PG, not too late, but late enough that they really only had a chance to close on two plan B guys, then were left empty.

There targeted a LOT of PGs, not a lot of SGs or SFs, some PFs. Just not enough guys overall to get a really solid four man prep class.

I agree totally on yoru assessment of 2014 and 2015, completely unacceptable. I think this class, as it stands now with these three is a decent class, not great, obviously, but also not bad. That clark is going to be a three year guy helps in terms of them getting back to recruit and develop.

Too many misses, and it isn't a great class, but it isn't a bad class. IMO.

Again, I'm skeptical, but I can see where JD is coming from. I had this sense a while ago, and I have posted, JD is pretty much tying his future to Smoke, BK and Barton, for better or for worse.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

How can anyone judge a class when none of these players have played a minute in a Pitt uniform .These are young guys with D1 talent who should improve before coming here give them a chance. Judge them in two years and try and remember Pitt isn't Duke .

 

[DT_PITT]

How can anyone judge a class when none of these players have played a minute in a Pitt uniform .These are young guys with D1 talent who should improve before coming here give them a chance. Judge them in two years and try and remember Pitt isn't Duke .

Going into 2011, everyone thought our recruiting had taken a nice step forward with Birch, D Johnson, J Johnson and Gilbert. This was generally ranked as a top 10-15 recruiting class.

Obviously, this proved to be Dixon's worst class in his tenure.

 

[gary2]

Going into 2011, everyone thought our recruiting had taken a nice step forward with Birch, D Johnson, J Johnson and Gilbert. This was generally ranked as a top 10-15 recruiting class.

Obviously, this proved to be Dixon's worst class in his tenure.

I think Birch turned out to be a pretty good player who left. I think Durand was a pretty good player with injury and personal issues. I think John Johnson could have been a pretty good player if he had been better at choosing schools. Gilbert was a bust.

I would take my chances with the four players listed above (plus a PG) against what we have recruited (outside the grad transfers + Jeter) in the last 3 recruiting classes.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

I think ranking a class really depends a lot on who you are and what your objectives are . If Pitt landed two Kentucky type one and doners everyone would be ecstatic " best class ever" ,but Pitt can't replace these guys when they leave. Perfect examples are Birch and Adams ,did either one really contribute much to the program. I know if they had stayed ,but they didn't and these type of players usually don't stay. I'm not against signing elite players ,but I feel Pitts best long term best interests lies in getting solid program guys who improve during their 4/5 yr stay . Last years class on paper was disappointing ,but what if Cam becomes a star next season and Luther red shirts and comes back stronger and becomes a solid contributor ,was that class disappointing? Solid players who know the system and improve then add a Blair or an Adams when you can get one and then your in the picture for championships. Chasing elites who go elsewhere gets you nowhere.

 

[Harve74]

I think Birch turned out to be a pretty good player who left. I think Durand was a pretty good player with injury and personal issues. I think John Johnson could have been a pretty good player if he had been better at choosing schools. Gilbert was a bust.

I would take my chances with the four players listed above (plus a PG) against what we have recruited (outside the grad transfers + Jeter) in the last 3 recruiting classes.

Pretty clear John Johnson was a bust at two D-1 schools. Recruiting Birch and forcing Bond to reclassify and the subsequent fiasco destroyed our hard-fought Philly, New England and budding Canadian connections and directly led to our problems the past few years.

Simply recruiting by star ranking has been demonstrably a huge failure. We need guys who will buy into the system and play hard, not just guys who look good dunking in AAU style play.

I don't think anyone especially Jamie plans on building a program with 5th year transfers. They were a patch necessitated by misses on Haughton and Uchebo's inability to rehab the knee. As patches, it is a pretty good strategy. Florida State may win the ACC in football with a transfer QB.

There is nothing wrong with seeking recruits from outside the AAU/Shoe company camp circuit. Schools like Wichita State, Gonzaga, Butler and others have been creative in finding talent. There are lots of guys who can play but weren't on the radar of big-time recruiting circles. Again, Florida State signed the co-POY of the Juco league where Barton found Nix.

It's a good thing that Barton works the fringes, because Pitt is not willing as an institution to play the games many big time programs do with the 4 and 5-star recruits and their handlers.

We won in the Big East with guys who were mostly below the radar. Was Donatas Zavackas so different in any way from Ryan Luther? Or Brandin or Jaron so different from Kithcart or Clark in potential? Going forward, it looks like Jamie is going "back to the future" by seeking the old-style Pitt guys instead of simply recruiting kids with the highest star rankings. Based on the guys he's signed, he's upgrading athleticism but bringing in defense and toughness too, qualities decidely missing in those 2011 recruits.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Carl Krauser was a guy they sort of dug up at a key time, and did a lot to keep the momentum moving forward.

Agree, my sense is that they have targeted a mix of quickness/talent, toughness and defense with their guards this go round.

 

[gary2]

Pretty clear John Johnson was a bust at two D-1 schools. Recruiting Birch and forcing Bond to reclassify and the subsequent fiasco destroyed our hard-fought Philly, New England and budding Canadian connections and directly led to our problems the past few years.

Simply recruiting by star ranking has been demonstrably a huge failure. We need guys who will buy into the system and play hard, not just guys who look good dunking in AAU style play.

I don't think anyone especially Jamie plans on building a program with 5th year transfers. They were a patch necessitated by misses on Haughton and Uchebo's inability to rehab the knee. As patches, it is a pretty good strategy. Florida State may win the ACC in football with a transfer QB.

There is nothing wrong with seeking recruits from outside the AAU/Shoe company camp circuit. Schools like Wichita State, Gonzaga, Butler and others have been creative in finding talent. There are lots of guys who can play but weren't on the radar of big-time recruiting circles. Again, Florida State signed the co-POY of the Juco league where Barton found Nix.

It's a good thing that Barton works the fringes, because Pitt is not willing as an institution to play the games many big time programs do with the 4 and 5-star recruits and their handlers.

We won in the Big East with guys who were mostly below the radar. Was Donatas Zavackas so different in any way from Ryan Luther? Or Brandin or Jaron so different from Kithcart or Clark in potential? Going forward, it looks like Jamie is going "back to the future" by seeking the old-style Pitt guys instead of simply recruiting kids with the highest star rankings. Based on the guys he's signed, he's upgrading athleticism but bringing in defense and toughness too, qualities decidely missing in those 2011 recruits.

Harve - I agree it was a mistake to recruit Birch (and hire Skerry) and John Johnson (did not fit his role here). My point to DT was that the four players he listed, with the addition of a PG could certainly compete if not defeat a team of everyone we have recruited in the last three recruiting seasons. All of those players have played significant minutes at a D-1 level. Three have has some degree of success.

I agree that Pitt should go back to its roots and not chase the holy grail in 5 and high 4 star players. This years recruiting still appears disappointing to me. While Kithkart might be a return to a Pitt style recruit, I fear Manigault might be another Gilbert and Clark is a JC I never heard of as a prep, Now we are talking about another JC as our fourth recruit?

The last three years are way too many reaches, JCTs and 5th year transfers. I try to follow recruiting, both online and from publications. When we were recruiting well I knew who our recruits were. I can not say the same now.

I believe there were prep players in the 100-250 range that were geographic fits and personality fits out there and ready to be had these last three years. White to Prov, Powell, Marfo, Konate, Stevens - Why are we losing these players to lesser programs? Even Charllie Moore is/was realistic. His height makes him less attractive to the blue bloods.

I know you can not recruit just of rankings. I remember when Pitt recruited a QB named Bowen, He was a Parade All American (but could not play a lick). The school you play for and your lineage often results in a higher ranking than a player deserves.

Once again, I basically agree with what you espouse as to what should be our recruiting approach. I am just pointing out that our approach has been and appears to continue to be something else. I do not mind under the radar recruits(I generally know who they are), I just do not want recruits from deep space.

 

[gary2]

Carl Krauser was a guy they sort of dug up at a key time, and did a lot to keep the momentum moving forward.

Agree, my sense is that they have targeted a mix of quickness/talent, toughness and defense with their guards this go round.

I loved Krauser - He was, after Knight probably the most important player in our progression towards sustained success. I do not believe he was an under the radar player - People knew he could play - I believe grades might have been an issue, but we managed to get him in and the rest is history.

I am hoping players like Nix. Milligan and Clark turn out to be diamonds in the rough. But if I was gambling, I would rather have players with a higher pedigree.

 

[KiwiJeff]

Harve - I agree it was a mistake to recruit Birch (and hire Skerry) and John Johnson (did not fit his role here). My point to DT was that the four players he listed, with the addition of a PG could certainly compete if not defeat a team of everyone we have recruited in the last three recruiting seasons. All of those players have played significant minutes at a D-1 level. Three have has some degree of success.

I agree that Pitt should go back to its roots and not chase the holy grail in 5 and high 4 star players. This years recruiting still appears disappointing to me. While Kithkart might be a return to a Pitt style recruit, I fear Manigault might be another Gilbert and Clark is a JC I never heard of as a prep, Now we are talking about another JC as our fourth recruit?

The last three years are way too many reaches, JCTs and 5th year transfers. I try to follow recruiting, both online and from publications. When we were recruiting well I knew who our recruits were. I can not say the same now.

I believe there were prep players in the 100-250 range that were geographic fits and personality fits out there and ready to be had these last three years. White to Prov, Powell, Marfo, Konate, Stevens - Why are we losing these players to lesser programs? Even Charllie Moore is/was realistic. His height makes him less attractive to the blue bloods.

I know you can not recruit just of rankings. I remember when Pitt recruited a QB named Bowen, He was a Parade All American (but could not play a lick). The school you play for and your lineage often results in a higher ranking than a player deserves.

Once again, I basically agree with what you espouse as to what should be our recruiting approach. I am just pointing out that our approach has been and appears to continue to be something else. I do not mind under the radar recruits(I generally know who they are), I just do not want recruits from deep space.

Why would you fear Manigault is another Gilbert? He could be another McGhee. We have no data on him yet. All teams have guys that miss. All teams have guys who overachieve where they were rated. I understand the general angst about the overall state of affairs of the past classes, but not the player specific angst for guys not yet here. You haven't seen any of these guys play. Until they bust, they aren't a bust.

 

[heybandguy]

IMO, the recruits on deck (Kithcart, Clark & Manigault) answer positions of need for next year. They need another big - I don't know who they have been on to.

The 2011 looked good on paper, but didn't pan out here - and in all fairness, I don't think they would have made that much of a difference somewhere else. Birch didn't exactly elevate UNLV to something special after he transferred - he of that group was the only one who had a nice college career.

Nix & Wilson fill a need on this year's team. The other transfers help strengthen positions as well. I understand wanting to get better basketball pedigree - track record of other programs says that can pan out pretty well. JD has a lot of balls in the air right now trying to fix this roster for this season, and I agree with those that have stated this is probably not his ideal way to get things done. I understand the OP - I wish recruiting had a better feel to it. I am hoping a better season on the court, and as was mentioned, more consistency with the staff starts to fix it in time. I am not convinced there is an overnight fix for recruiting issues - the relationships built there ultimately spell out what rosters ultimately look like.

 

[gary2]

Why would you fear Manigault is another Gilbert? He could be another McGhee. We have no data on him yet. All teams have guys that miss. All teams have guys who overachieve where they were rated. I understand the general angst about the overall state of affairs of the past classes, but not the player specific angst for guys not yet here. You haven't seen any of these guys play. Until they bust, they aren't a bust.

Manigault is nothing like McGhee. McGhee was a brick wall. My impression of Manigault is that he is not a power player. Tall, not particularly strong and maybe injury prone - sounds like Gilbert to me.

Pitt's recruiting during the last three seasons reminds me of Duquesne's - Scrambling for players - Signing a bunch of unknowns.Some may pain out - I think Gill and Powell at Duquesne can play a bit. I believe Kithkart was listed as being recruited by Duquesne.

In 2 years our roster will consist of: (listed by seniority)

Luther - SR
C.Johnson - JR
Wilson - JR
Clark - JR
Manigault - SO
Kithkart - SO
Unknow - ??

Plus 6 recruits (hopefully not all under the radar - We need a star or two)

I know a lot can change in 2 years - and we may once again bring in grad transfers and force people out, but who of the players listed above can be a star? Who of the players listed above is more than a complimentary player and a player you can build a team around? I just do not see it and nothing I have seen in this recruiting season has so far, changed what I am viewing.

 

[Harve74]

Why would you fear Manigault is another Gilbert? He could be another McGhee. We have no data on him yet. All teams have guys that miss. All teams have guys who overachieve where they were rated. I understand the general angst about the overall state of affairs of the past classes, but not the player specific angst for guys not yet here. You haven't seen any of these guys play. Until they bust, they aren't a bust.

Manigault was playing VERY well at the EYBL this summer before his ankle acted up. He's far from a Gilbert, whose ranking was based on one stellar weekend. Gilbert averaged in low single figures.

Manigault has been a solid payer and had good offers. It's not essential for Pitt to sign another big man this class because next season's roster will still have Young, Artis, Jeter, Nix, Luther and Manigault. With 4 upperclassmen ahead of the freshmen bigs, playing time could be scare.

I would be in favor of adding a developmental big, but it's not crucial. If Jamie thought it was, he'd probably not have backed off Konate.

 

[KiwiJeff]

Manigault is nothing like McGhee. McGhee was a brick wall. My impression of Manigault is that he is not a power player. Tall, not particularly strong and maybe injury prone - sounds like Gilbert to me.

Pitt's recruiting during the last three seasons reminds me of Duquesne's - Scrambling for players - Signing a bunch of unknowns.Some may pain out - I think Gill and Powell at Duquesne can play a bit. I believe Kithkart was listed as being recruited by Duquesne.

In 2 years our roster will consist of: (listed by seniority)

Luther - SR
C.Johnson - JR
Wilson - JR
Clark - JR
Manigault - SO
Kithkart - SO
Unknow - ??

Plus 6 recruits (hopefully not all under the radar - We need a star or two)

I know a lot can change in 2 years - and we may once again bring in grad transfers and force people out, but who of the players listed above can be a star? Who of the players listed above is more than a complimentary player and a player you can build a team around? I just do not see it and nothing I have seen in this recruiting season has so far, changed what I am viewing.

Have you tried valium? lol...
McGhee wasn't even McGhee his first 2 years. Out of High School, he wasn't much. Anyway, I didn't mean Manigault was EXACTLY the same human being as McGhee. I meant only, he may have upside. You don't know. I don't know. I do know you seem to be over-worrying about things wayyyyyy outside of our control, and things that aren't even imminent.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

Guess wh

Have you tried valium? lol...
McGhee wasn't even McGhee his first 2 years. Out of High School, he wasn't much. Anyway, I didn't mean Manigault was EXACTLY the same human being as McGhee. I meant only, he may have upside. You don't know. I don't know. I do know you seem to be over-worrying about things wayyyyyy outside of our control, and things that aren't even imminent.

guess what JD doesn't know what to expect until they get here and compete

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Manigault was playing VERY well at the EYBL this summer before his ankle acted up. He's far from a Gilbert, whose ranking was based on one stellar weekend. Gilbert averaged in low single figures.

Manigault has been a solid payer and had good offers. It's not essential for Pitt to sign another big man this class because next season's roster will still have Young, Artis, Jeter, Nix, Luther and Manigault. With 4 upperclassmen ahead of the freshmen bigs, playing time could be scare.

I would be in favor of adding a developmental big, but it's not crucial. If Jamie thought it was, he'd probably not have backed off Konate.

Yeah, I can't imagine 2 HS post recruits being further apart in terms of profile than Gilbert and Manigault. Gilbert had a super low floor (as we saw) and an incredibly high ceiling if things came together. Manigault probably has as solid of a floor as you'll find in a HS big, albeit without a ton of upside. Not every prospect has the same ceiling/floor profile or the same level of readiness, even those ranked in the same range.

Manigault profiles similarly to Mike Young in HS, just based off the scouting reports. Not super tall, considered to have good offensive skills, a developing face-up game, largely plays below the rim. Both are guys who are borderline Top 100 types (Mike Young's RSCI was #99).

Also, in the listing of players from a previous post, I think Cameron Johnson can absolutely be a star. Will probably know more on the other guys once we actually see them. Damon Wilson, for instance, has a really intriguing upside but until we see him on a D-I court we won't know what he ultimately is.

By and large, I think the rankings are pretty meaningless as soon as players step on campus. Most of us could probably tell right away that certain guys may not be quite as good as their ranking (or as bad). I think we saw pretty quickly that guys like Taylor, Epps, Gilbert, Birch, Moore, etc.. didn't quite have it despite their rankings. I think we also saw that guys like Chris Jones, Slim Johnson, Ashton Gibbs, and Jamel Artis probably slipped through the cracks.

In terms of stars and high-school accolades, that CBI team was the most decorated Pitt's had, but I think it was pretty evident that there were a lot of overrated guys on that team.

My general philosophy is to pretend guys never had stars next to their name when I finally see them against other D-I players.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

They got really lucky with Cameron Johnson, IMO.

In general, I don't think their recruiting has been that different than their strongest years (on the court, that is) aside from the increased presence with JUCOs. And that's a trend that's happening across college sports.

They're mostly back to getting kids in the 90-150ish range. Rivals' write-up on Kithcart said he barely missed their most recent Top 150 update.

How so?

 

[Pittbaseball11]

How so?

With Cameron Johnson? I think if he hits his growth spurt a summer earlier or if he winds up going the prep route that he becomes a much bigger recruit nationally. It may not have mattered, from the sounds of it he grew up going to Pitt games, wanted to go to Pitt, and with his father playing at Pitt I'm sure he would have supported a commitment if he wanted to make one, but he doesn't really fit the profile of a late-process flier. Despite being a guy they got late with very few offers, I think he's as talented a player as they've brought in in terms of his raw tools. Really pretty shooting stroke, extremely fluid and coordinated, good athlete, and as legit a 6'8" as Mike Young is.

Just to use a comparison from that class, I think if you throw away the rankings and have a choice between Cam Johnson and Detrick Mostella, you probably take Johnson with little hesitation. Taller, much better shooter, about 3 years younger (Mostella is actually older than Chris Jones).

I'm not saying they cut ties with Mostella in favor of Johnson, it seemed like there was far more going on than that, just that I think they were very lucky to get a player of his caliber. The 2014 class gets a lot of crap, and I really don't know what the Slice dynamic had to do with it, but despite the odd process and underwhelming results on paper I don't think Johnson or Luther are particularly out of place. I don't think it's totally inconceivable for Luther to become what Tyrell Biggs became, for instance. That's not sexy or exciting, but it's useful and well worth a scholarship spot.

 

[oldpantherfan]

I think this a is a stupid and ridiculous post. Same thing we get in football. yet the team is ranked #25 with mostly under ranked athletes. isn't time to stop all this bs and let the team play and the coaches recruit. Can we ever be happy. Or maybe we should recruit escorts to recruit players. So many post and response for nothing.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

I think this a is a stupid and ridiculous post. Same thing we get in football. yet the team is ranked #25 with mostly under ranked athletes. isn't time to stop all this bs and let the team play and the coaches recruit. Can we ever be happy. Or maybe we should recruit escorts to recruit players. So many post and response for nothing.

director of escort recruiting may I be the first to apply!

 

[JS School]

Are Young, Artis, Wilson, Manigault and Kithcart lesser recruits than what we had in the 2000s (other than Blair)? It seems that those guys are about the same level as earlier recruits. Plus there has always been developmental players like Jones and Luther who turned out pretty well. The only difference is the period where we only had Adams for a year, Birch for a few months, and Gilbert, John Johnson and Epps being busts. That led to reaches like Randall and Uchebo and Haughton. Now we are getting better transfers to fill an immediate need. If that is Barton's role, then he deserves some credit. But I don't think overall our level of recruits is much different than when we were successful.

I believe Millington was ranked about 75th coming out of high school. If you want to say that proves rankings mean nothing, fine, but don't complain about Kithcart being only about 155. There's not that much difference between 50 and 200 in a lot of cases. Dixon knows what he wants.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Are Young, Artis, Wilson, Manigault and Kithcart lesser recruits than what we had in the 2000s (other than Blair)? It seems that those guys are about the same level as earlier recruits. Plus there has always been developmental players like Jones and Luther who turned out pretty well. The only difference is the period where we only had Adams for a year, Birch for a few months, and Gilbert, John Johnson and Epps being busts. That led to reaches like Randall and Uchebo and Haughton. Now we are getting better transfers to fill an immediate need. If that is Barton's role, then he deserves some credit. But I don't think overall our level of recruits is much different than when we were successful.

I believe Millington was ranked about 75th coming out of high school. If you want to say that proves rankings mean nothing, fine, but don't complain about Kithcart being only about 155. There's not that much difference between 50 and 200 in a lot of cases. Dixon knows what he wants.

Here are former recruits' ratings per RSCI. RSCI takes all rankings, averages them out, and spits out a composite ranking. It's more or less what 247 does with their composite rankings, but they've been doing it for a long time:

Young - 98th
Wilson - 90th
Artis - 192nd
Manigault - Not yet ranked, will probably be in the 95-130 range
Kithcart - Probably around 150th when it's all said and done

Noteworthy former Panthers and their RSCI rankings:

Levance Fields - 93rd
Sam Young - 49th
Gilbert Brown - 91st
Brad Wanamaker - 90th
Gary McGhee - Not ranked (list went to 170 that year)
Nasir Robinson - 86th
Ashton Gibbs - 140
Travon Woodall - 144
Lamar Patterson - 123rd
Talib Zanna - 86th

Obviously Blair was pretty highly ranked, although Adams, Birch, and Taylor were all ranked ahead of him per RSCI. He's a guy who, IMO, significantly outperformed his ranking. Pitt is pretty hit or miss with kids inside the Top 85 or so (Young, Epps, Moore, J. Robinson, Gilbert, Biggs).

I don't think the kids inside the top 85 are bad players or are bad fits, necessarily, but I think the guys ranked 85 - 200 are usually not being pumped up with NBA dreams, being corrupted by handlers, and usually are damn good players who just have one "fatal flaw" that causes their stock to drop. You can make a really good college player out of that profile if they stay all 4 years.

Obviously if you have a guy ranked super highly who is like Sam Young, that's your ideal player -- but that player is rare and becoming rarer in these days of incessant transfers.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I think this a is a stupid and ridiculous post. Same thing we get in football. yet the team is ranked #25 with mostly under ranked athletes. isn't time to stop all this bs and let the team play and the coaches recruit. Can we ever be happy. Or maybe we should recruit escorts to recruit players. So many post and response for nothing.

Agreed

 

[gary2]

Here are former recruits' ratings per RSCI. RSCI takes all rankings, averages them out, and spits out a composite ranking. It's more or less what 247 does with their composite rankings, but they've been doing it for a long time:

Young - 98th
Wilson - 90th
Artis - 192nd
Manigault - Not yet ranked, will probably be in the 95-130 range
Kithcart - Probably around 150th when it's all said and done

Noteworthy former Panthers and their RSCI rankings:

Levance Fields - 93rd
Sam Young - 49th
Gilbert Brown - 91st
Brad Wanamaker - 90th
Gary McGhee - Not ranked (list went to 170 that year)
Nasir Robinson - 86th
Ashton Gibbs - 140
Travon Woodall - 144
Lamar Patterson - 123rd
Talib Zanna - 86th

Obviously Blair was pretty highly ranked, although Adams, Birch, and Taylor were all ranked ahead of him per RSCI. He's a guy who, IMO, significantly outperformed his ranking. Pitt is pretty hit or miss with kids inside the Top 85 or so (Young, Epps, Moore, J. Robinson, Gilbert, Biggs).

I don't think the kids inside the top 85 are bad players or are bad fits, necessarily, but I think the guys ranked 85 - 200 are usually not being pumped up with NBA dreams, being corrupted by handlers, and usually are damn good players who just have one "fatal flaw" that causes their stock to drop. You can make a really good college player out of that profile if they stay all 4 years.

Obviously if you have a guy ranked super highly who is like Sam Young, that's your ideal player -- but that player is rare and becoming rarer in these days of incessant transfers.

Thanks for making a point for me. The last 3 recruiting season have returned very little.

I am sure there are other previous recruits (not listed by you as noteworthy) that might be ranked in the top 200 as well

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Thanks for making a point for me. The last 3 recruiting season have returned very little.

I am sure there are other previous recruits (not listed by you as noteworthy) that might be ranked in the top 200 as well

Some are, some aren't. Josh Newkirk and John Johnson were, Chris Jones and Cameron Wright weren't. I mostly just listed where Pitt's best players were ranked out of HS. As I've said, I think at this point we've all seen enough to know rankings don't mean much. You can tell pretty quickly if a guy belongs.

In general, I think the hit rate has been better in that 85-200 range. The higher rated guys truly have been a crapshoot. I listed all of their guys ranked higher than 85 in my above post.

I'm not really sure how any of this proves or disproves your point. The 2013 - 2016 classes have fit pretty well into what they used to be. They got really off base from 2009 through 2012, IMO.

 

[KiwiJeff]

Thanks for making a point for me. The last 3 recruiting season have returned very little.

I am sure there are other previous recruits (not listed by you as noteworthy) that might be ranked in the top 200 as well

So what does this have to do with you under valuing future recruits based on the last few years? I think you are giving "your point" too much credit. I think you are a very good poster in general, so I am not trying to start anything, but your point of discounting future players based on a few down years is illogical.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

So what does this have to do with you under valuing future recruits based on the last few years? I think you are giving "your point" too much credit. I think you are a very good poster in general, so I am not trying to start anything, but your point of discounting future players based on a few down years is illogical.

Yeah and when you get the "these last 3 cycles have returned little" I feel like it's either a little bit illogical or a little bit delusional.

Is it the last 3 cycles to actually play? Well, that's 2012, 2013, 2014 -- I think Adams, Robinson, Jones, Young, Jeter, and Artis have all returned a decent amount (with more to come, for some).

Is it 2013, 2014, 2015? At that point you're getting into evaluating and judging players who have yet to actually play. People were pretty down on Artis when he came in, but it took about 5 games into his frosh season before you had people posting and tweeting about how he had the look of a future star. Cameron Johnson got those tweets last year (then got hurt). Who's to say Damon Wilson won't get those this year?

If it's 2014, 2015, 2016? I mean, you're literally talking about writing guys off who have pretty much not even started their careers. That's insane. Most of these guys are ranked similarly to the players Pitt has been most successful with -- and while that means nothing it at least means they shouldn't be dismissed because they don't have the ranking next to their name that Malcolm Gilbert, Isaiah Epps, and JJ Moore did.

 

[gary2]

So what does this have to do with you under valuing future recruits based on the last few years? I think you are giving "your point" too much credit. I think you are a very good poster in general, so I am not trying to start anything, but your point of discounting future players based on a few down years is illogical.

The future recruits in question are Manigault, Kithcart and Clark. Manigault is the only one ranked as a top 150 recruit.

I guess I t should be happy with him, but like the poster has said it is not all about the rankings. The poster compares him to Mike Young and I think that is a good comparison. I admit I did not like Young before he arrived at Pitt. I saw him play in high school and he was a big that played away from the basket with no great desire to bang or rebound. I also knew that Pitt would play him in the paint. Fortunately for Pitt, Young accepted that and worked to get stronger, worked harder to rebound and worked to score down low. He still needs to convert better down low and rebound stronger but I am convinced he will. Manigault needs to duplicate that. My impression of him is that he is not a power player. He is tall, not particularly strong, maybe injury prone and could see himself as a face up player. Once again, I know Pitt will play him down low. I hope he is ready for that and accepts it like Mike Young did.

Kithcart could well be a good fit - He is not currently in the top 150. I have hope for this player.

Clark is a JC I have never heard off. At the very least it is clear that he was not one of our initial choices. It is public knowledge that we have struck out on other more widely known and ranked recruits.

Now there is talk we are looking at another JC or another prep that is also not ranked.

The past two years we reached for projects, JCFs, transfers and grad transfers? Where is the prep recruiting? I had hoped that this year would be a turning point and it seems it is not. That is disappointing.

The previous poster listed the rankings of some of the recruits we landed when we were successful at recruiting. I believe there were even more he did not list. We successfully recruited a lot of players in the 100 to 150 range. Harve thinks we should recruit players that are fits for Pitt in the 100 to 150 level range. I think so too and would like to see us get back there. I just do not know if this staff can get us there.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

I see that you aren't premium. FWIW, a national writer wrote that Kithcart "barely missed the updated Top 150" when he wrote him up this summer. You may be selling him a bit short by just dismissing him because of the lack of a ranking. He's in that range, for all intents and purposes.

If you would like me to list any additional recruits, just let me know. My main point was showing that Pitt's success rate is better in that range, likely because those players stick around for 4 years and develop. There's no real indication that Top 85 talent has done Pitt much good, IMO. I listed out all of the Top 85 players they got, and IMO it's been, generously, a 50/50 split in terms of success.

 

[gary2]

Yeah and when you get the "these last 3 cycles have returned little" I feel like it's either a little bit illogical or a little bit delusional.

Is it the last 3 cycles to actually play? Well, that's 2012, 2013, 2014 -- I think Adams, Robinson, Jones, Young, Jeter, and Artis have all returned a decent amount (with more to come, for some).

Is it 2013, 2014, 2015? At that point you're getting into evaluating and judging players who have yet to actually play. People were pretty down on Artis when he came in, but it took about 5 games into his frosh season before you had people posting and tweeting about how he had the look of a future star. Cameron Johnson got those tweets last year (then got hurt). Who's to say Damon Wilson won't get those this year?

If it's 2014, 2015, 2016? I mean, you're literally talking about writing guys off who have pretty much not even started their careers. That's insane. Most of these guys are ranked similarly to the players Pitt has been most successful with -- and while that means nothing it at least means they shouldn't be dismissed because they don't have the ranking next to their name that Malcolm Gilbert, Isaiah Epps, and JJ Moore did.

I never said anything in this thread using the word "cycles". - It should be clear I was talking about 14-15-16.

I think I can form an opinion on future commits versus future misses. I think it is not unreasonable to say I would rather have Myles Powell or Maliek White than Crisshawn Clark. I think Seton hall and Providence would agree. I think I can also say it is disappointing when you lose recruits to the likes of Seton Hall and Providence.

What is wrong in this analysis?

 

[Pittbaseball11]

I never said anything in this thread using the word "cycles". - It should be clear I was talking about 14-15-16.

I think I can form an opinion on future commits versus future misses. I think it is not unreasonable to say I would rather have Myles Powell or Maliek White than Crisshawn Clark. I think Seton hall and Providence would agree. I think I can also say it is disappointing when you lose recruits to the likes of Seton Hall and Providence.

What is wrong in this analysis?

What's wrong is that we haven't seen any of these players play on a D-I basketball court.

Oregon is pretty disappointed that it missed on Crisshawn Clark. That's a better program than Providence, and certainly Seton Hall.

Playing the school vs. school card is always a slippery slope. Different schools want and like different things.

Again, 2 years ago, I doubt many people would have wanted Cameron Johnson over Detrick Mostella. After watching both of them in several games against other D-I players last year, I doubt that sentiment still exists. Let's at least wait until the recruits hit campus to make any sort of conclusive statments.

Back in 2011, would people have preferred Khem Birch or Jaylen Bond at Pitt? At the time, you absolutely take Birch. Now? You take Bond. Making preliminary judgments on any sort of recruit/player/prospect serves no real purpose.

The rankings mean zilch until we see them on the floor against other D-I athletes.

 

[gary2]

What's wrong is that we haven't seen any of these players play on a D-I basketball court.

Oregon is pretty disappointed that it missed on Crisshawn Clark. That's a better program than Providence, and certainly Seton Hall.

Playing the school vs. school card is always a slippery slope. Different schools want and like different things.

Again, 2 years ago, I doubt many people would have wanted Cameron Johnson over Detrick Mostella. After watching both of them in several games against other D-I players last year, I doubt that sentiment still exists. Let's at least wait until the recruits hit campus to make any sort of conclusive statments.

Back in 2011, would people have preferred Khem Birch or Jaylen Bond at Pitt? At the time, you absolutely take Birch. Now? You take Bond. Making preliminary judgments on any sort of recruit/player/prospect serves no real purpose.

The rankings mean zilch until we see them on the floor against other D-I athletes.

You act like there is no video or scouting reports on these players. There is. You can form a reasonable if not perfect opinion on these players based on published video, scouting reports and schools that offered.

For the record I would have rather had Bond than Birch. Bond knew he was a banger. Birch like many players, had delusions of grandeur.

For the record I would rather have Mostella than Cam Johnson now. Mostella is a guard. We just admitted Milligan because we have no guards. Just what exactly has Cam Johnson done or shown? What position can Cam Johnson play or defend at? I do hope Cam Johnson is the player that you and many feel he will be.

 

[gary2]

Duplicate post

 

[Pittbaseball11]

You act like there is no video or scouting reports on these players. There is. You can form a reasonable if not perfect opinion on these players based on published video, scouting reports and schools that offered.

For the record I would have rather had Bond than Birch. Bond knew he was a banger. Birch like many players, had delusions of grandeur.

For the record I would rather have Mostella than Cam Johnson now. Mostella is a guard. We just admitted Milligan because we have no guards. Just what exactly has Cam Johnson done or shown? What position can Cam Johnson play or defend at? I do hope Cam Johnson is the player that you and many feel he will be.

I think, at best, you can judge fit through scouting reports and get a general idea of athleticism, handle and shot form from highlight tapes. I haven't ever been able to accurately discern anything else from them, and based on what I've seen none of these guys appear to be poor fits or appreciably worse than many of Pitt's previous recruits coming in.

I think any defensive concerns about Johnson would have to go double for Mostella, who was both an abomination on that end of the floor last year and also admitted on Twitter that he hates playing defense.

I think Johnson has shown an ability to shoot at a high level at 6'8". That's more than Mostella showed offensively at any point in HS and college (this despite being 22 years old already), and Mostella obviously showed nothing defensively last year. I'm not saying Johnson was good on the defensive end, he wasn't, but I think he at least has tools you can work with offensively. Mostella being a 6'1" 2-guard with limited offensive skills is a little bit different.