Really impressed by Mostella's sub .300 shooting percentage and 3.4 points per game huh?
Recruiting
- Thread starter gary2
- Start date
Really impressed by Mostella's sub .300 shooting percentage and 3.4 points per game huh?
you might be right about the 2014 through 2016 classes, but since two of those classes haven't played a game at Pitt, you may be cutting their upside & impact going forward.
Luther showed enough in the Kanas State game that he could eventually be key part of future teams. Johnson will take a little more time, since he got hurt early.
Remember when Brad was a freshman... the game was too fast & he looked like a deer in headlights. He adapted , the game got slower and he became a key player on the team. Or the JJ v Lamar debates because JJ had the athletism & Lamar deferred too much & played below the rim. Who ended being a better player?
Let's see how these classes perform before we anoit the Lost class as better.
Luther showed enough in the Kanas State game that he could eventually be key part of future teams. Johnson will take a little more time, since he got hurt early.
Remember when Brad was a freshman... the game was too fast & he looked like a deer in headlights. He adapted , the game got slower and he became a key player on the team. Or the JJ v Lamar debates because JJ had the athletism & Lamar deferred too much & played below the rim. Who ended being a better player?
Let's see how these classes perform before we anoit the Lost class as better.
I should say here that... I am not extremely impressed with the pickup of Manigault. He is 6'8" and 225... and is a CENTER. In other words, his skill set is that of a center but he is too small to play center at the college level.... except on a very poor team. Mike Young is 6'9" and 235... but considered on the small side at C so that is why they brought in Maia, ANO and Nix, so they could move MY to PF.
So, the only hope for Manigault is he learns to play PF.... but with Young, Artis, Jeter, etc, around for his first year, and Luther here for more than that, where the heck are you gonna play this guy? Hmmmm.... a RS candidate if ever I saw one.
Then, come next year, Maia and ANO are gone and that just leaves us with Nix to play C, and MY if you decide to play him at C again. So, is Dixon's plan to start Nix and spell him with the undersized freshman Manigault???
Right now... Dixon has Wilson to replace Robinson... but a hole at C come 2016 and nobody to replace Young, Artis and Jeter/Jones come 2017.
As I see it... the recruiting has fallen off a cliff and if Dixon does not fix the problem... he's gonna end up being the next Dave Wannstedt. To be honest, IMO this is the direction the program is heading in.
So, the only hope for Manigault is he learns to play PF.... but with Young, Artis, Jeter, etc, around for his first year, and Luther here for more than that, where the heck are you gonna play this guy? Hmmmm.... a RS candidate if ever I saw one.
Then, come next year, Maia and ANO are gone and that just leaves us with Nix to play C, and MY if you decide to play him at C again. So, is Dixon's plan to start Nix and spell him with the undersized freshman Manigault???
Right now... Dixon has Wilson to replace Robinson... but a hole at C come 2016 and nobody to replace Young, Artis and Jeter/Jones come 2017.
As I see it... the recruiting has fallen off a cliff and if Dixon does not fix the problem... he's gonna end up being the next Dave Wannstedt. To be honest, IMO this is the direction the program is heading in.
I don't watch enough college basketball to say this with certainty, but at least with the NBA the shift to small ball is making the need for a 7' center less and less important. It's more important now to have a center who can score from midrange and out. There is enough talent disparity in college that a good player can be good even if he is only 6'8".
Who says he'll play center at Pitt?? It's idiotic to start knocking kids who haven't even finished high school. You just look for a reason to post the same negative crap all the time. Get some new material. Maybe Dixon's lawn is in bad shape, or he has too many Halloween decorations.
Gary, no offense meant but a good portion of this thread has been discussing guys who didn't perform up to their Rivals ranking. If it were so easy to project future college success from highlight films that a fan could do it, there would be a whole lot less recruiting mistakes.
Highlight films and all too often, scouting reports of (mostly) AAU competition tend to over-value athleticism and spectacular moves abd stats ofyen jnflatedby the playing style.
Predicting how a high school kid will play at a D-1 school is not as easy as it looks. Sometimes it takes up until their 2bd or 3rd year of college to answer that question.
As far as Mostella vs. Cam Johnson, Johnson has considerable upside potential. Mostella at 22 has virtually none. At WORST, Johnson should be able to slide into Artis's roe as a scoring combo forward.
I think you mischaractorize Manigault as a finese big. Reports on the pay side this past summer had him playing very strongly in the paint.
And as far as the numerical ranking of recruits, I don't recall specifically saying we should target only 100-150 guys. I have said, as PB11 also says, that many of our former stars were guys in that range. The statement I ae frequently quoted was foref poster simmerdunna's line that in each class there are a few elite players, and another group of pretty goid guys but after those guys, the rankings from rankings from say, 50 to 250 are pretth much meaningess. They deoed on which weekend tge kids were watched.The RISC attempts to average a number of diffrent rankings but genetally only covers te top 100-150 guys, who naturally get most of the attention.
There are a lot of guys out there who can play competitively at the college level. We won a lot of ganes in the Big East when it was the best conference in the country with guys similar to our 2016 class.
Z's concern over a perceived future lack of enough bigs to occupy the paint appears a bit paranoid this early (probably brought on by immediacy bias based on last season). To take the opposite (and Pollyanna-ish approach)--I would say it is just as likely that Nix and Luther redshirt and another decent big is brought in with the remaining open 2016 ship (most likely either a JUCO or a Senior transfer). Thus, the problem is solved and the paranoia lifted.
There's not that many big hulking centers in college either. Young and Zanna both successfully played the center position for us recently despite not being "true" centers. Virginia has a couple of forwards manning 4 and 5 positions the past few years and they have won 30 games two years in a row. The idea that you need a big hulking 7 footer at center to be successful is outdated.
Oh, and Zara, ANO and Maia are nearly identical to Young in size and weight. Nix is the only player brought in clearly bigger than Mike Young.
Yeah.... Thompson is 6'9" and 238.... Mike Young sized. But the guy playing next to him is Kevin Love, who is 6'10" and 250.
Last year with Young at C, about the same as Thompson.... but Artis is just 6'7" and 225... and that is a lot smaller than Love... albeit we are comparing college to pros... but still.... we got pushed around inside last year and with that Dixon brought in Maia and ANO but after this year those two are gone.
Nix... is big enough for sure so the only question there is if he can handle D1 ball
But Maginault... is 2 inches taller than Artis but the same weight.... when he would be in there would be about the same as last year inside.
I think Dixon.... has it in his mind that Luther can play C. Played him there some last year and he got eaten alive by Okafor and Christmas. He is 6'9" but just 215. Maybe he will but on some beef between now and 2016.
Ok Harve, good to hear from you, lets forget the 2014 and 2015 classes and throw out recruiting rankings for the moment, let ask you two questions. I know you follow recruiting.so here they are:
1) Off the top of your head, gut feeling - Did you hope and expect this class to look different.
2) Before we recruited Clark did you know anything about Clark? (prep or JC) and other than the fact that he was recruited by Oregon do you know anything about him now? I think it was the Clark recruitment that has set me off, that and the mention of still another JC.. Maybe this is about trying to get class balance. (I hope he turns out to be another Antonio Graves (although we took Graves very late). I did not know much about Graves, but welcomed him as he filled a dire need.
I admit that I do not follow recruiting as closely as I used to. Hell I have not even bought the Athlon magazine the last two seasons and I am not a premium member but there is a lot out there I do see and I still would rather have a player that is more widely known and recruited than not.
My comments about Mostella versus Johnson had more to do with the fact that Mostella is a guard. He would have provided a fill for a greater need than Cam Johnson I sure I might find some disagreement here, but I expect Mostella to be better next season. He had not played in quite some time before his introduction into college basketball. I also wonder about Johnson's ability to defend at the 2G, SF or PF. (not quick enough./not strong enough)
My comments about Manigault may be entirely wrong, I admit I have not viewed video on this player and only watched him once on TV. I have seen box scores where he has scored only around 5 points and often had 5 or less rebounds. As a result, I doubt he can play center (I think he would be a Gilbert or at best, a Birch type center) and while he might be able to play power forward, he would not be the physical banger I would wish for.
This thread if nothing else, has generated some discussion in this slow period before the season starts. I am expecting a good season this year and hoping recruiting picks up for the future. H2P
Z's concern over a perceived future lack of enough bigs to occupy the paint appears a bit paranoid this early (probably brought on by immediacy bias based on last season). To take the opposite (and Pollyanna-ish approach)--I would say it is just as likely that Nix and Luther redshirt and another decent big is brought in with the remaining open 2016 ship (most likely either a JUCO or a Senior transfer). Thus, the problem is solved and the paranoia lifted.
DC... my concern is the only 4* player on the roster come 2017, as things stand now, is Wilson and IMO that is NOT enough.... and unless he brings in more come 2017... the program is in big trouble. He had 4 scholies open for 2016 and he seems content to fill those spots up with 2*s and 3*s...and it really makes you wonder if he might be better off saving those slots and using them on players like Maia, ANO and Sterling Smith like he did this past year... being he obviously is not able to find any 4*s out there that will sign up with him.
Barnes needs to tell Dixon to stop wasting money traveling around to see recruits. All he needs to do is go to a recruiting website and check a player's estimated height and weight, see if that fits the position they have listed for him, check out his ranking, and watch a few mixtapes on youtube.
I think what Gary is trying to say is if you simply look at the names of the players, their ranks, and offer lists, the last several classes have looked more like A10 or mid-major kevel class. Definitely not ACC and not even new Big East.
If you showed our 14, 15, and 16 classes to random college basketball fans and gave them a multiple choice of what school those recruits were going to
a) Pitt
b) Rhode Island
c) Drexel
Id bet URI and Drexel would get more votes. That doesnt mean these players wont be any good or that we wont win. We've all seen lower ranked players excel at many different schools. However, if you continually have to rely on A10 recruits to compete in the ACC, that may become very troubling one day.
If you showed our 14, 15, and 16 classes to random college basketball fans and gave them a multiple choice of what school those recruits were going to
a) Pitt
b) Rhode Island
c) Drexel
Id bet URI and Drexel would get more votes. That doesnt mean these players wont be any good or that we wont win. We've all seen lower ranked players excel at many different schools. However, if you continually have to rely on A10 recruits to compete in the ACC, that may become very troubling one day.
Except that Cam Johnson is also a guard. He just happens to be a guard that had a huge growth spurt.
Right and, although we're on a recruiting site, it kind of shows why the rankings and "on-paper" talent don't correlate particularly well in the college basketball landscape. An unranked 3* on here could be anywhere from, what, 151st to maybe 400th?
Here's what was written about Kithcart by the rivals national guy:
A native of North Carolina who attends Lynchburg (Va.) Virginia Episcopal, Kithcart just missed the 2016 Rivals150 coming out of the summer and is definitely an ACC-level prospect despite not currently being in the rankings. He is very good off the dribble and does a particularly good job of changing directions in traffic without losing any explosiveness. A natural scorer, Kithcart can't be left alone from deep and he has the quickness and instinct to develop into a very good defender with time. - See more at: https://pittsburgh.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1805225#sthash.NokEmFVa.dpuf
So, yeah, somebody might perceive a guy like that as a URI or Drexel level recruit, but that somebody would also be a bit of a fool to just take the ranking at face value or try to glean anything significant from it.
If you add James Robinson to the list of current and future players, the average is about 113. Without him it's 125. The average for the list of previous players is 107. That's really not much of a difference. ( I gave Manigault a 95 because I gave McGhee a 170.)
Uh, according to Draft Express, Kevin Love is 6-7 3/4 w/o shoes. I doubt Mike Young is much bigger. Freshman bigs usualy get eaten alive by All-American #2 NBA draft choices and by senior bigs. Luther will probably be mostly a 4 but will be able to fill in at 5 as needed. The program has never been based on us playing freshmen against seniors. It's been based on developing guys and playing our men against their boys.
Gary McGhee and Aaron Gray were lost as freshmen but stars as upperclassmen.
Gary, I'm happier that we seem to be going back to our long term philosophy of signing guys who are focused on being here longer than two semesters. Trying to chase 4- and 5-stars was a mistake that cost us a couple wasted seasons.
I didn't know about Clark, but B-Man who follows these things better than anyone I know is impressed with him. That's good enough for me. There are a lot of guards out there who can put up points. Duquense and Bobby Mo find a couple almost every year. We need some who can score AND defend. Clark and Kithcart seem to be guys who may help us there.
I'm convinced we will never hear from Detrick Mostella again. He's a real flake. Cam Johnson was recruited as a big SG. His measurables and pedigree were not disimilar to Maverick Rowan but Cam has continued to grow. His Dad is 6-8 and played for Paul Evans at 240 or so. His Mother is tall too. I think Cam will be bigger. His older brother has filled out. Cam will too.
I think he will grow into a 3 or maybe a 4. He could even end up as a Pittsnogle-style center. His 3-pt shot is that good. He's a RS FR so he has 4 years to hit the weights. I've seen him close up. He was no skinnier than Gilbert Brown as a first year freshman and Gil ended up fairly well ripped. And now he's above 210. Wisconsin did pretty well last season with a center who had been a 6-3 PG as a junior but grew to be a sweet shooting post player and All American by his senior year.
Yeah, it was nice to dream about Heron and Rowan and Diallo, like it was nice to dream about Pryor and Herb Pope. But, even while some of them were committed did anyone really think they were coming here?
The game has changed. There are few teams which have good, power players in the post. You can find size or you can find skill, but the guys with both go to only a few schools and quickly on to the NBA. We'll add another developmental big in this class or next, but we can win with undersized 4's and 5's. We've done it before.
For once, the roster is at least two deep at every position. And will be again next season. After the rapid Birch, Johnson, Gilbert, Moore, Adams, and Zeigler defections, and the Durand Johnson suspension, it has taken a while to acheve that. There is work to be done in balancing the classes because of the big bubble that is the junior class, but it will be addressed too.
There may be light at the end of the tunnel. Or maybe it will all collapse and we start over. But, at least there seens to be a plan.
Last edited:
Not exactly. We seemed to have stepped down in class these last 3-4 recruiting classes. Usually, we recruited like mid-level to low-level old BE program beating out SHu, RU, PC, etc for players. Now, seems like we are all the way down to recruiting at the A10/mid-major level. To me, on paper anyways, recruiting is definitely worse than in the Big East days.
Thank you - This does indicate the essence of what our recruiting has been
The players I am referencing are listed below. Could you or Pittbaseball please list their rank or projected rank (while also realizing that there is more than one player on the edge of top 150 and some players will rise while others will fall)
Luther
C.Johnson
Haughton
D,Wilson
Nix
Milligan
Kithcart
Manigault
Clark
It doesn't rank JUCOs, so you're looking at:
Luther not ranked
Johnson not ranked
Wilson 90th
Kithcart around 150
Manigault somewhere around 95-150
But, again, the whole Luther and Johnson thing is somewhat meaningless as we've seen them play college games and have seen they're already better than some of their higher ranked former Panther counterparts.
If we are talking offers, again, not sure where the consternation arises from. Wilson's offers were fine, Manigault had solid offers and a well publicized Georgetown offer, Crisshawn Clark had an Oregon offer despite being VERY early in his recruiting process for a JUCO. Even with Kithcart you're looking at Clemson and TCU offers.
The issue people seem to have is mostly with 2014 and, again, I don't think it's relevant anymore. We've seen those guys and we know they're ACC level players.
Last edited:
Well, relying on other schools' opinion & offers is certainly more important than anything else when evaluating talent. We should just have the staff browse recruiting service sites. No need to actually see the kids. It may be a plot to eventually return to the BE.
Thank you for your response - the Clark recruitment strikes me as one or two things and it sounds more like the first.
You remember the big kid $a stiff) that we signed who played at the basketball academy in the Netherlands? I believe we signed him when all our other choices at a big fell through and we knew we had to have another big on the roster. We eventually (strangely) parted with him and he ended up at Rutgers. I fear the Clark recruitment is similar. Nothing I have read/heard indicates we were on him as a prep or even as a JC. We came in late and beat out Oregon for him. Could he be nothing but a placeholder until what we see is available in the spring?
The other possibility is that his recruitment is similar to Levon Kendall's. (who I also had heard nothing about at the time) Dixon goes out to see Clark and falls in love with him. Clark goes on to be a multi year contributor. I hope this is how things turn out.
What is so hard to understand about how reasonable subjective evaluations indicate our recruiting has been poor? I would guess that most on this forum would agree that recruiting is not where it needs to be, maybe I am wrong
Was recruiting from 2009 - 2012 where it needed to be?
People seem to want 2009 - 2012 recruiting wins with 2005 - 2008 results. That's a damn tough thing to accomplish at a school like Pitt.
Ultimately, I'm of the opinion that results matter. Those 2009 - 2012 classes brought nothing. It's way too early to make any proclamations about 2013 and on.
Thank You very much for your response and thank you for answering it as it was asked.
Without having data, I would guess that Pitt usually recruited more than 3 preps in 3 years who were both ranked and who played and played well at Pitt.
I can't really speak to the rankings, they took guys like Ronald Ramon, Dwight Miller, Austin Wallace, Trevor Ferguson, and Gary McGhee. It wasn't all sunshine and roses and a lot of guys we think back fondly on aren't ranked nearly as highly as we recall (Fields, Brown, Wanamaker, and Patterson mostly). On the amount of prep guys, they've had a lot more turnover than they used to back when everything was predicated on linkage and experience. I can't ever recall a class as large as next year's will be, right? The class balance has just been really bad lately and I'm hopeful the 2013 class can help rectify it.
Plus, the JUCOs and transfers have really exploded in the past several years all across college basketball. I think even if things were good we would probably see a more increased presence.
Manigault also has approximately a 7'2 wingspan...he will be a PF/C...and, in this day and age...he will have plenty of ability to be a C in the ACC. Pitt coaches compared him a lot to DeJuan Blair and were recruiting him to play a similar role. He has a lot of upside and his best basketball is ahead of him as he continues to fill that upside with added strength and weight to go with that impressive wing span to rebound and defend in the paint at the next level.
I think it is true that nobody is happy with the recent recruiting results as we clearly missed many of the guys we made a priority. In the past we missed the higher end guys as well that may have been a priority, but we did a very good job of finding guys that were gritty and played with a chip on their shoulder and were pieces to the puzzle of the players we currently had. In the last several years that was not the case with the guys we fell back into...so, when the Birch, Durand, Gilbert and Johnson class fizzled...we didn't have the guys behind them to fill the gaps. So...the 5th year transfers are hoping to do that now this year.
The three players in the '16 class we have committed now all should be quality contributors. None likely stars...but, we will see how they develop and they could be very good pieces to a puzzle. Clark is definitely a wildcard because you never know how a JUCO will translate, but if he comes on for 3 years and the fact that they were very aggressive with him...as was Oregon, it does show that there is good chance he will be a contributor. His athletic ability alone makes him very intriguing (and size) at least in the backcourt.
It will be interesting...they need to win this season to restore hope. They should win this year enough to be in the NCAA Tournament and relevant. If not...that could very well be a problem
The point that some of us are trying to make is that Dixon has always gotten a large share of players who are ranked approximately 75 to 175 and that some of them have turned out to be very good players and have formed very good teams. It's hard for me to understand how some people can be so upset about getting Kithcart and Clark rather than Powell and White without ever having seen any of them actually play. To me that's not having recruiting go off a cliff. The higher ranked recruits that Dixon has landed have actually provided lesser results. All we can do is be patient and see how the new guys perform. That's better than complaining about them before they have even put on a Pitt uniform.
Uh.... maybe Kevin Love was that coming of HS.... but NOW... he is as I stated.... 6'10" and 251... according to ESPN which is talking about the Cleveland Cavs roster NOT players coming out of HS.
We will see how Manigault, as well as Kithcart (both of whom I see as questionable recruits) do as time goes along.
But, those of you that are saying that they are good pickups.... would be saying the same thing about.... Tyrone Haughton... if he was part of this group.
But, those of you that are saying that they are good pickups.... would be saying the same thing about.... Tyrone Haughton... if he was part of this group.
Why would anyone say that now? I think everyone was questioning the Haughton signing when it happened.
How could anyone do that? After all nobody had yet to see him play against other D-1 players and..... he had the school record for blocked shots and..... he was being recruited by LSU as a prep.
First off size is no indicator for how you rebound. ( size and toughness from previous post ). Have you forgotten Jerome Lane and BShorter ?
Just curious do you travel the AAU circuit in your talent observations?
You ,me ,nor anyone else on this board knows how these kids will turn out. JD nor his staff know either,but you do? If talent evaluation was so easy why was Martavis Bryant a third round pick or Antonio Brown a sixth.
Least you forget Pitt does not factor in on elite recruit except on very rare occasions let's see what these guys bring to the table before you trash them.
Can I say something about our PG recruiting?
Sure, Kithcart may be a fine player one day.........but he pretty much needs to START next year. People, realize that we were selling a starting PG spot from Practice #1. Starting PG at a good ACC program right away. And we ended up with a fallback option.
I mean we talk about salesmanship all the time on this board. How about "hey, come and run the show from Day 1" for a sales pitch. That's a pitch that we've never had to make before and we still landed really good PGs. Now, when they can start right away, nobody wanted to come.
Sure, Kithcart may be a fine player one day.........but he pretty much needs to START next year. People, realize that we were selling a starting PG spot from Practice #1. Starting PG at a good ACC program right away. And we ended up with a fallback option.
I mean we talk about salesmanship all the time on this board. How about "hey, come and run the show from Day 1" for a sales pitch. That's a pitch that we've never had to make before and we still landed really good PGs. Now, when they can start right away, nobody wanted to come.
