So is it just five Power 5 signees from the WPIAL?
- Thread starter Chem95
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was there a Char Valley DB recruit that went to psu? Payne i think. Rutgers got a kid from Wash high too..
for 2024, i count 5 wpial kids that we have offers out too. i am sure that will change and maybe there are some kids on the "fringe" with offers from P5 schools not named pitt but i dont see that number for '24 being in double digits either..
Below is from the Post-Gazette this morning. It wasn't long ago the WPIAL was putting out 25-30 Power Five recruits a year
"This is the fourth time in five years that the number of Power Five recruits from the WPIAL-City League has been less than 10. The classes of 2022 and 2020 had only six Power Five recruits and 2019 had eight.
From the classes of 2000 through 2018, the WPIAL and City League never had fewer than 11 Power Five recruits and there were 14 or more 14 different times. The highest number of Power Five recruits since 2000 was 26 in 2007. The class of 2008 had 24, the class of 2004 had 23, and the class of 2006 had 20.
To give you a better idea how things have changed with the big-time talent level of WPIAL and City League football in recent years, one can look at the five-year period of 1986-1990 as an example. The number of Power Five recruits in those classes were 30 in 1986, 31 in 1987, 27 in 1988, 31 in 1989, and 27 in 1990."
Where this hurts us is with the upper-echelon talent. We can pull the 3-stars from anywhere. But now, the few 4-stars who come through the WPIAL have an inflated perception of themselves because they're so few and far between. So many of them don't even consider Pitt as they raise their pinkies.
Allegheny County population has only decreased by 9% from 1986. 1.4 million to 1.2 million. There are other factors beyond just population loss. The population loss argument is greatly exaggerated. Yes, Pittsburgh has suffered a significant loss but it was mostly because people moved to the suburbs. Why arent those kids good at football?
I wonder if this goes back to the whole "Allegheny County has too many school districts" argument. Perhaps if like EF, SA, EA, Clairton, and Duquesne were a 5A or 6A HS, kids would be challenged more in practice and in games. As it is, every small town has its own football team.
Could it be that less kids in the area playing football at a younger age due to safety concerns? They may play at an older age still but have less time to develop their skills and might eventually focus on a different sport.
Good Point - Sports like Hockey and Lacrosse have become a lot more popular and have taken away some potential D1 football players. The number of kids playing these sports has dramatically increased over the last 30 years.
Nine percent is actually pretty significant, especially when considering virtually all non-rust belt metropolitan areas increased in population, so relatively speaking, we are getting even smaller than the population loss percentage. Also, what is the decrease in the number of school aged kids in the PGH area? I'm pretty sure Allegheny County has one of the oldest populations in the country outside of some retiree areas in Florida.
Can’t believe you didn’t mention the rise in popularity of soccer as a reason.
I dunno. I used to make my gf at the time pitch me baseballs at the field by the Pleasant Hills Municipal Building so I could hit sick dingers over its relatively short porch in left. It's now a soccer complex. Then a few months ago I drove past the field I used to play Legion baseball on... also turned into soccer fields.
Soccer is eating up our baseball fields like an invasive species feasting on a once-properly-functioning ecosystem. It must be stopped.
Yea that's a nice field. There is a massive oversupply of baseball/softball fields though. You don't need that many, especially if you have lights, which some do. Yes, soccer is gaining popularity but that cant be the reason, P5 prospects have declined 75% in Allegheny county when the population has only decreased by 9%.
I don’t live in the Pittsburgh area but I find that hard to believe. Just based on the fact that soccer may be the most popular youth sport to enroll 3,4 and 5 year-olds in relative to other sports because all the kids need to be able to do is run. I know that’s the case where I live only 2 hours away and has been since about 30 or more years ago when I was coaching my kids at that age.
I guess I may also be biased, graduated from a Pittsburgh area HS way back in 1975 that was big into soccer even back then.
Edit…sorry, this was meant to be a reply to SMF not your post.
I posted his quote before, and I hate giving Mark Madden any credit, but until the captain of the cheerleading squad is banging the star of the soccer team instead of the star of the football team, soccer will never be as popular in high school sports.
Many other factors in this, kids are just starting to lose interest. Why do you think Nickelodeon is doing an NFL broadcast on Christmas Day?
This is probably the answer as much as anything else. The whole area is like this.
At least part of the reason for fewer recruits is that the WPIAL's perception as a hotbed for football talent has dropped. Major programs have limited time/focus to devote to scouting and developing relationships, and they are focused on Florida, Texas, California, and Georgia. Ohio, New Jersey, and DC/Virginia perhaps secondarily. Western PA is an afterthought. Accordingly, you have NFL Hall of Fame caliber players like Revis and Aaron Donald being largely overlooked. Dante Cephas has transfer offers from anyone he wants, including Georgia and Penn State, after playing at Kent. I'm sure there are others who have gone to lower tier programs and thrived. In the 80's and early 90's, I suspect that the opposite was true -- players were getting major offers based on the area's reputation rather than their talent. Some high schools/coaches do an amazing job of promoting their programs and players. I'm not sure how much that affects the coaches doing the recruiting, but the pipelines are important, and the internet media who cover recruiting certainly buy in.
I'm sure this phenomenon is not "the" explanation -- population trends, culture and other sports certainly matter -- but I do think it affects the bottom line numbers and exaggerates the trends.
Well perception has dropped because the population of high school kids has dropped -- especially in comparison to the number of high school kids in Florida, Texas, California, New Jersey, Georgia, and the rest of the sun belt where population is going up. The 20th or 30th or 40th biggest fish in a pond of 1,000 isn't as attractive as the 20th or 30th or 40th biggest fish in a pond of 3,000. The 15th best lineman prospect in the WPIAL might be 6'2" 285 lbs, whereas just based on larger population, the 15th best lineman prospect in Georgia is probably 6'4" 295 lbs. It's all related.
I hit a home run over that exact short porch in left once - of course, that was over 40 years ago …
I was thinking about that earlier this summer while at a number of grandson baseball games. The age where the kids start doing the pitching…and very few of them can throw strikes. So the games end up being a parade of walks and take painfully long to complete. Kids are out in the outfield getting bored and not paying attention as it’s walk after walk after walk.
It’s great to get these kids started in pitching but have to think the boredom turns a lot of kids away from baseball at that point.
Not to me. Soccer is the worst.
Baseball is a waste of space for two guys to play catch and another 7 to stand around and scratch their balls
Not only that, but the actual people in the population have changed drastically. No more big dudes working in the mills, churning out big sons that play HS football. Instead areas like PR and NA have exploded, populated by academics and doctors and lawyers whose kids either play soccer or swim. The entire ecosystem has changed.
Those are the school districts that are expanding, but I don't know about the sector of society that is expanding being that type. If anything, it seems like the college-educated/career-oriented people are having less kids, while those living below the poverty line keep popping them out.
I will expand upon it with an example that could be applied to many areas - Valley HS. In the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s Valley had good teams and put out a lot of talent. You had a lot of hard working families that took pride in their community. Nowadays Valley is a AA school that keeps getting smaller because the town has turned into a dump and those good, hardworking families have moved elsewhere. Seneca Valley, North Allegheny, Mars, Pine-Richland, etc. are booming because good, hardworking people want to provide the best for themselves and their children and have moved out of the New Ken’s of the world. You are left with much more condensed pockets of talent. Obviously, the Aliquippa’s of the world still have big-time talent but how long will that last? We just saw Jeannette fall from grace recently. Woody High went from 6A enrollment at one time to 3A right now.
I would like to see the demographics of the 80s recruits. Were working class districts like Steel Valley, West Mifflin, and Ringgold pumping out D1s? Now it seems that the WPA population is disproportionately represented by like 10 affluent suburban school districts, which maybe arent the best at producing P5 players.
I went to West Mifflin, and I feel like I would have heard of any prominent sports alum. So I doubt they were coming from there, unless it was Central Catholic by way of West Mifflin.
Obviously Woody High used to be a big player. Gateway, too. Penn Hills, maybe? Aliquippa and Central Catholic, of course. Seems like NA used to spit a lot more prospects out. North Hills had Arrington and then Andrew Johnson... I'm sure they had plenty more, too.
Seems like TJ, Central Catholic, and Aliquippa are still doing their parts (at least in proportion), but other schools have fallen off a cliff. Add McKeesport to that list. Did Lebo, USC, and Bethel used to have a lot of prospects? I can certainly think of a few.
Penn Hills, Woody High, North Hills, Gateway, and McKeesport regularly put out D1 players for awhile. The 1986 Gateway vs NH game was littered with D1 recruits and they were considered top teams in the country. Is there one D1 player out of this entire group of schools?
Pretty remarkable to see Narduzzi having success given WPA is now basically devoid of talent.
Mike White has a great article today.
Here are some of of the items:
This is the fourth time in five years that the number of Power Five recruits from the WPIAL-City League has been less than 10. The classes of 2022 and 2020 had only six Power Five recruits and 2019 had eight.
From the classes of 2000 through 2018, the WPIAL and City League never had fewer than 11 Power Five recruits and there were 14 or more 14 different times. The highest number of Power Five recruits since 2000 was 26 in 2007. The class of 2008 had 24, the class of 2004 had 23, and the class of 2006 had 20.
To give you a better idea how things have changed with the big-time talent level of WPIAL and City League football in recent years, one can look at the five-year period of 1986-1990 as an example. The number of Power Five recruits in those classes were 30 in 1986, 31 in 1987, 27 in 1988, 31 in 1989, and 27 in 1990.
I mean you don't need the entire article to see this trajectory and how precipitous of a drop off it is. Even in 10 years, let alone 30-40 years.
Here are some of of the items:
This is the fourth time in five years that the number of Power Five recruits from the WPIAL-City League has been less than 10. The classes of 2022 and 2020 had only six Power Five recruits and 2019 had eight.
From the classes of 2000 through 2018, the WPIAL and City League never had fewer than 11 Power Five recruits and there were 14 or more 14 different times. The highest number of Power Five recruits since 2000 was 26 in 2007. The class of 2008 had 24, the class of 2004 had 23, and the class of 2006 had 20.
To give you a better idea how things have changed with the big-time talent level of WPIAL and City League football in recent years, one can look at the five-year period of 1986-1990 as an example. The number of Power Five recruits in those classes were 30 in 1986, 31 in 1987, 27 in 1988, 31 in 1989, and 27 in 1990.
I mean you don't need the entire article to see this trajectory and how precipitous of a drop off it is. Even in 10 years, let alone 30-40 years.
Does Aliquippa benefit from not having a non-boundary school in Beaver County who could poach kids?
I think Jeanette will be back sooner then later. They just have to keep GCC out of their backyard.
Was Woody ever 6A? I think they were 5A when the 6 classes came out. But, your point is well taken. Is there any coincidence that nearby non boundary schools have started to rise Woody has declined? Serra Catholic, Imani (not there yet but will be), PCC (always there), and Gateway
..Central Valley is a powerhouse in Beaver County and a better overall school. If you are a Beaver County kid looking for more exposure, then CV would be the logical choice to transfer to. There were some successful teams in Beaver County: Beaver Falls, Beaver, Rochester, SS Beaver, Central Valley, and Aliquippa.Does Aliquippa benefit from not having a non-boundary school in Beaver County who could poach kids?
I think Jeanette will be back sooner then later. They just have to keep GCC out of their backyard.
Was Woody ever 6A? I think they were 5A when the 6 classes came out. But, your point is well taken. Is there any coincidence that nearby non boundary schools have started to rise Woody has declined? Serra Catholic, Imani (not there yet but will be), PCC (always there), and Gateway
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61 in 86-87
50 in 07-08
14 in 19-20
Like I said, population decrease is only a small factor. Up until 10 or so years ago, the area was producing about as many players as it had in the 80s, adjusted for population. Then it fell of a cliff. There are reasons, as discussed, for SOME drop-off such as growing popularity in other sports but that doesn't explain this level of a drop. I mean, the Pgh area might actually be the worst metro area in the nation for P5 talent.
I think we are all missing the bigger picture. Maybe its just coaching/infrastructure. What's happened to WH, PH, and Gateway? If you put the coaches of TJ and BV at Gateway and WH, do they make the necessary changes from youth levels all the way up to the HS team to start producing 3-4 P5 a year like they used to? That's just an example but why dont the Eastern suburbs produce P5s anymore?
How is it that population decrease is only a "small" factor? I think it has to be the number 1 factor. Look at what the population decrease has done to our schools -- we have what is it, five 6A schools left in the WPIAL? And then compare that to the number of 6A schools on the eastern side of the state. And guess what, eastern PA's growth of school aged kids, as much greater as it is than the western side of PA, is still below the growth being seen in sun belt areas. There are simply way more kids in those other regions. When the number of P5 schools and scholarships remains constant, but the nationwide pool of kids grows, yet western PA's portion of that pool gets way smaller, this is going to happen.
Because population is only down 9% from the 80s but P5s are down 75%. There's WAY more to it than a small population loss
But in terms of our percentage of high school kids in the pool of all high school kids in the US, it very well might be down 75%.
If Allegheny County population is only down 9%, it is IMPOSSIBLE that the HS age population is down 75%. Allegheny County is old, yes. But having a rudimentary knowledge of statistics, I can tell you that if the entire population is only down 9%, HS age kids cant be down by more than 20% and 20% might be stretching it.
