Taking OOC games more seriously

[PittPanther44]

I admit I’m wrong.

Every year when Pitt plays an OOC game, it usually feels “smaller” to me than a conference game. Exception might be if it were WVU or a true blue blood program.

But win or lose, I always say “well, everything is still in front of them in Conference play”.

That clearly is not the right way to look at it.

Think about a typical mid major conference. We would want to know that they aren’t just operating in a silo. It matters how they do outside of it. That’s why they emphasize it.

I thought the ACC wouldn’t have that type of scrutiny. Even though some programs might take turns being good, you would think there is a nice list of very good teams every year. So OOC gets diminished.

But today there is no guarantee of that. I think the conference did beat up each other a little bit, and some of those middling teams could go win the A10. And the committee clearly didn’t understand that not all teams played the same in conference schedule. But still…

I think our part of this is to get to non conference games, especially against Power conference teams. Get to neutral site games if they are in your area. Get good energy around these games. They could wind up meaning the most.

 

[PittPanther44]

One other thing. Don’t get me wrong. It’s silly to think that (say) wins over Duke and Wake should “mean more” if those were the OOC games. Overall SOS should come first which takes into consideration both your OOC AND the in conference schedule differences.

But that’s not the world we live in.

 

[buckage]

With UVa losing, maybe some things change next year. I doubt it, but the committee is taking a bath on this right now.

 

[upj87]

I admit I’m wrong.

Every year when Pitt plays an OOC game, it usually feels “smaller” to me than a conference game. Exception might be if it were WVU or a true blue blood program.

But win or lose, I always say “well, everything is still in front of them in Conference play”.

That clearly is not the right way to look at it.

Think about a typical mid major conference. We would want to know that they aren’t just operating in a silo. It matters how they do outside of it. That’s why they emphasize it.

I thought the ACC wouldn’t have that type of scrutiny. Even though some programs might take turns being good, you would think there is a nice list of very good teams every year. So OOC gets diminished.

But today there is no guarantee of that. I think the conference did beat up each other a little bit, and some of those middling teams could go win the A10. And the committee clearly didn’t understand that not all teams played the same in conference schedule. But still…

I think our part of this is to get to non conference games, especially against Power conference teams. Get to neutral site games if they are in your area. Get good energy around these games. They could wind up meaning the most.

With Pitt's luck this year they would have scheduled UConn the year they go 10-19...Joe Lunardi would then go on to say their OOC schedule killed them and the committee is trying to teach a lesson..

There was nothing wrong with Pitt's OOC schedule. One missed Uber ride by a drunk and a history making year of ineptitude from a tourney team from last year from being easily in the field..You look at that schedule in November last year and Pitt with 22 wins overall and 4th in the ACC at 12-8 and you would bet the house on an NCAA tourney bid...As Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders sang...Circumstance beyond our control, oh-oh.

 

[buckage]

There was nothing wrong with Pitt's OOC schedule. One missed Uber ride by a drunk and a history making year of ineptitude from a tourney team from last year from being easily in the field..You look at that schedule in November last year and Pitt with 22 wins overall and 4th in the ACC at 12-8 and you would bet the house on an NCAA tourney bid...As Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders sang...Circumstance beyond our control, oh-oh.

Agree with this

 

[NCPitt]

With UVa losing, maybe some things change next year. I doubt it, but the committee is taking a bath on this right now.

The likely change is that they take fewer ACC teams.

 

[buckage]

The likely change is that they take fewer ACC teams.

Or teams built like UVa

 

[PittPanther44]

With Pitt's luck this year they would have scheduled UConn the year they go 10-19...Joe Lunardi would then go on to say their OOC schedule killed them and the committee is trying to teach a lesson..

There was nothing wrong with Pitt's OOC schedule. One missed Uber ride by a drunk and a history making year of ineptitude from a tourney team from last year from being easily in the field..You look at that schedule in November last year and Pitt with 22 wins overall and 4th in the ACC at 12-8 and you would bet the house on an NCAA tourney bid...As Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders sang...Circumstance beyond our control, oh-oh.

I agree that it projected to be solid. I also think that some teams went deeper into the shitter after the fact. We could however have controlled the Missouri game.

But full body of work was plenty IMO.

This thread was more about how I personally will put more emphasis on it and make more of an effort to get to OOC games.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

One other thing. Don’t get me wrong. It’s silly to think that (say) wins over Duke and Wake should “mean more” if those were the OOC games. Overall SOS should come first which takes into consideration both your OOC AND the in conference schedule differences.

But that’s not the world we live in.

This is correct. A game vs VCU counts more than a game vs NC State. Its just the way it is. The NCAA is very clear on this now. So the ACC needs to find creative ways to emphasize these OOC games. They can start by reading my post about it. The old way of scheduling ALL conference games the last 10 weeks cant happen anymore.

And for the love of God, can we make some attempt to sell season tickets? Dont sell upper deck season tickets until the lower bowl is sold out. We cant have 3000 people and a dead crowd for these Nov/Dec games, which are the most important of the season.

 

[PittPanther44]

This is correct. A game vs VCU counts more than a game vs NC State. Its just the way it is. The NCAA is very clear on this now. So the ACC needs to find creative ways to emphasize these OOC games. They can start by reading my post about it. The old way of scheduling ALL conference games the last 10 weeks cant happen anymore.

And for the love of God, can we make some attempt to sell season tickets? Dont sell upper deck season tickets until the lower bowl is sold out. We cant have 3000 people and a dead crowd for these Nov/Dec games, which are the most important of the season.

Most important games for a bubble team that finishes 3rd or 4th the ACC.

Obviously, we can’t crush those and then go 9-13 in conference.

 

[PittED2001]

This is correct. A game vs VCU counts more than a game vs NC State. Its just the way it is. The NCAA is very clear on this now. So the ACC needs to find creative ways to emphasize these OOC games. They can start by reading my post about it. The old way of scheduling ALL conference games the last 10 weeks cant happen anymore.

And for the love of God, can we make some attempt to sell season tickets? Dont sell upper deck season tickets until the lower bowl is sold out. We cant have 3000 people and a dead crowd for these Nov/Dec games, which are the most important of the season.

Please change your name to Broken Record........

 

[PittED2001]

And for the love of God, can we make some attempt to sell season tickets? Dont sell upper deck season tickets until the lower bowl is sold out. We cant have 3000 people and a dead crowd for these Nov/Dec games, which are the most important of the season.

By the way for your information, some people like being upstairs, and the level of noise is irrelevant to the committee. But please post this at least 500 more times. And its not the most important part of the season. Next year you'll have a different tune to post 10,000 more times.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

With Pitt's luck this year they would have scheduled UConn the year they go 10-19...Joe Lunardi would then go on to say their OOC schedule killed them and the committee is trying to teach a lesson..

There was nothing wrong with Pitt's OOC schedule. One missed Uber ride by a drunk and a history making year of ineptitude from a tourney team from last year from being easily in the field..You look at that schedule in November last year and Pitt with 22 wins overall and 4th in the ACC at 12-8 and you would bet the house on an NCAA tourney bid...As Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders sang...Circumstance beyond our control, oh-oh.

Like I said, if Pitt was matched up against Auburn or Kentucky in the SEC challenge and lost, and played at Kansas, Iowa St or Texas last year and lost (instead of winning at Morgantown) we are in the NCAA's and easily in with a 9 seed.

 

[PittPanther44]

Like I said, if Pitt was matched up against Auburn or Kentucky in the SEC challenge and lost, and played at Kansas, Iowa St or Texas last year and lost (instead of winning at Morgantown) we are in the NCAA's and easily in with a 9 seed.

Not sure about that. Because then total losses become a factor. You got rid of the Missouri loss, but also a win. Now you have a 12 loss team coming out of a conference not perceived to be great.

You might be right as long as those aren’t blowout losses.

 

[TD_6082]

Or teams built like UVa

There won't be a change. It's still about overall resume and OOC SOS will still be a big part of that.

With UVA specifically, it is what it is. They lost to a 16 seed by 20 points back in 2018. The next year, with essentially the same team they won a national title. The Hoos have been tournament chumps, chokers, champions and everything in between.

Regarding last night. anyone that has watched UVA basketball this year, knew that was a possibility. Anyone see the game at Notre Dame, Duke, Virginia Tech?

 

[Pitt666]

There are 5 opponents that should be yearly:
Neutral:
Duquense

Rotate home/away
Cincy
PSU
WVU
Villanova

That should be a quick compromise to raise net and fan interest. No reason not to do that going forward.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Like I said, if Pitt was matched up against Auburn or Kentucky in the SEC challenge and lost, and played at Kansas, Iowa St or Texas last year and lost (instead of winning at Morgantown) we are in the NCAA's and easily in with a 9 seed.

Honestly, had Pitt and UVa swapped SEC opponents and kept the same results (Pitt loses to A&M at home, UVa beats Mizzou at home), Pitt is in over UVa without even a question. Pretty stupid and why its also stupid to play these season-determining games around Thanksgiving.

 

[Dointhatrag]

Its not like all these home cream puffs are a money maker like in football. Sure you can gouge the remaining season tickets holders for these games but you are better off cutting it down to like four of these home games a year.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Its not like all these home cream puffs are a money maker like in football. Sure you can gouge the remaining season tickets holders for these games but you are better off cutting it down to like four of these home games a year.

Right. These games cost us more than we make off of them. You need to pay an appearance fee of 100K and then pay to staff the place. They dont add much to the value of a season ticket, maybe $5 or $10 per game so no one is going to care if they cut those games in half.

 

[220/22traveler]

I admit I’m wrong.

Every year when Pitt plays an OOC game, it usually feels “smaller” to me than a conference game. Exception might be if it were WVU or a true blue blood program.

But win or lose, I always say “well, everything is still in front of them in Conference play”.

That clearly is not the right way to look at it.

Think about a typical mid major conference. We would want to know that they aren’t just operating in a silo. It matters how they do outside of it. That’s why they emphasize it.

I thought the ACC wouldn’t have that type of scrutiny. Even though some programs might take turns being good, you would think there is a nice list of very good teams every year. So OOC gets diminished.

But today there is no guarantee of that. I think the conference did beat up each other a little bit, and some of those middling teams could go win the A10. And the committee clearly didn’t understand that not all teams played the same in conference schedule. But still…

I think our part of this is to get to non conference games, especially against Power conference teams. Get to neutral site games if they are in your area. Get good energy around these games. They could wind up meaning the most.

Jamie Dixon was a master at this. You play teams in the 100 to 150 ranking area and schedule 2 or 3 midling P 5. Our first few games against the absolute worse teams in NCAA was a huge mistake. I understand why we did it with frosh guards and all but you just can't go that low.

On the other side, we didn't "schedule" Missouri, they were assigned to us, and even so, who knew they wouldn't win one game in conference. Oregon St wasn't a choice either. WVU is a great noncon foe, except this year. Are we suppose to hire a psychic to make sure we play "good" ooc P5 teams?

I think that if the committee wants to make ooc games that important, then teams should play ooc games in Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb. Why do they all have to come at start of the season. That would be a fairer system for young teams that improve as season goes on. I think it would make the season more fun also. Why should we play Duke twice in 2 weeks when the season is 5 months long? If an 0-15 Missouri comes into Pittsburgh on February 28th and beats a bubble dwelling Pitt team then yea, use that to keep us out.

Finally, I don't understand why conference tournament winners can't be included in the first four. Common sense tells you the 1st 4 should be the 4 worst teams in the tournament. Automatic qualifiers are often among the 4 worst teams. This would also do away with the ridiculousness that a 10 seed has to play in a play in game.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The NCAA is very clear on this now.

The NCAA has been clear on this for literally decades. You would think that Pitt fans would remember that it was something that was talked about when Ben Howland was our coach. Do you remember how long ago that was?

Every year, literally every year, people on the committee talk about non-conference schedules because you make up your own non-conference schedule, so did you challenge your team or not? They WANT teams to schedule good non-conference games. They have wanted it for decades. The one, and pretty much only, way that the NCAA has to get what it wants is to use non-conference strength of schedule to help select the tournament field and help seed the teams.

I swear, during the Stallings Error and the couple seasons after it some people here completely forgot about what is and is not important to the selection committee. We act like we are shocked that things that they have talked about as being important for literally decades are important. We cannot understand that something they did away with considering 15 years ago isn't being considered today.

I guess that's what happens when your team gets so bad that people try to remove college basketball from their memories.

 

[Bethlehemjohn]

I admit I’m wrong.

Every year when Pitt plays an OOC game, it usually feels “smaller” to me than a conference game. Exception might be if it were WVU or a true blue blood program.

But win or lose, I always say “well, everything is still in front of them in Conference play”.

That clearly is not the right way to look at it.

Think about a typical mid major conference. We would want to know that they aren’t just operating in a silo. It matters how they do outside of it. That’s why they emphasize it.

I thought the ACC wouldn’t have that type of scrutiny. Even though some programs might take turns being good, you would think there is a nice list of very good teams every year. So OOC gets diminished.

But today there is no guarantee of that. I think the conference did beat up each other a little bit, and some of those middling teams could go win the A10. And the committee clearly didn’t understand that not all teams played the same in conference schedule. But still…

I think our part of this is to get to non conference games, especially against Power conference teams. Get to neutral site games if they are in your area. Get good energy around these games. They could wind up meaning the most.

The bottom line is that many of the mid to lower ACC teams lost too many bad games early in the season and that set the tempo.

Teams like GT, ND and UL got much better as the season went on, but by that time it did not help.

ND lost at home to Citadel and West Carolina.
GT lost to UMass Lowell at home.
Louisville lost to Chattanooga and Arkansas St at home.

 

[pitt-girl]

Personally I don't trust the "Committee" enough to assume they'll be the same as this year.

And I fully expect in this new era of transfers and NIL that the last 15 games will start to matter again.

 

[PittPanther44]

Personally I don't trust the "Committee" enough to assume they'll be the same as this year.

And I fully expect in this new era of transfers and NIL that the last 15 games will start to matter again.

It’s very possible that it will flip to whatever doesn’t benefit us that year.

 

[pitt-girl]

It’s very possible that it will flip to whatever doesn’t benefit us that year.

As much as I'd like to think it's all about PITT (lol), I think the NCAAT Committee has always been a bit fluid.

 

[MartyInLawrenceville]

Another thing to consider for the noncon games; sportsmanship be damned! You beat the piss out of every one of them, by 40 if you can. They don’t like it? Tough shit, talk to the selection committee.

 

[pittbb80]

One other thing. Don’t get me wrong. It’s silly to think that (say) wins over Duke and Wake should “mean more” if those were the OOC games. Overall SOS should come first which takes into consideration both your OOC AND the in conference schedule differences.

But that’s not the world we live in.

Yeah it’s kind of crazy that overall SOS isn’t the main factor. Weighting out of conference sos is silly since there are so many in conference games which is what Bilas said. But it is what it is

I personally feel that the committee picks and chooses which metrics they want to emphasize to make the case for the team they want on. The committee chair essentially said that when he said some members value some metrics more than others

 

[Dointhatrag]

Another thing to consider for the noncon games; sportsmanship be damned! You beat the piss out of every one of them, by 40 if you can. They don’t like it? Tough shit, talk to the selection committee.

I feel like we made a concerted effort this year to drive up the point margin of these games

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I feel like we made a concerted effort this year to drive up the point margin of these games

I agree. Maybe some of it was injuries, but we often played some starters until the end of the game even when we had double digit leads. Kinda sad for the walk-ons, but makes sense under the rules.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I feel like we made a concerted effort this year to drive up the point margin of these games

Yea, they did so in that regard Pitt did "game" the NET and that might have been their plan. This is what the Big 12 did. Very weak OOCs but blew out all those teams. But Oklahoma got left out because of it and TCU wasn't too far removed from the cut line. So I dont think that is the best gaming strategy. The MWC does it the right way. Lots of road/neutral games. Road games vs cupcake-ish teams. Very few Q4s.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Honestly, had Pitt and UVa swapped SEC opponents and kept the same results (Pitt loses to A&M at home, UVa beats Mizzou at home), Pitt is in over UVa without even a question. Pretty stupid and why its also stupid to play these season-determining games around Thanksgiving.

Or the stupid part is....."why are you overvaluing games around Thanksgiving versus games around Valentine's Day"? Right?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Or the stupid part is....."why are you overvaluing games around Thanksgiving versus games around Valentine's Day"? Right?

Again, because non-P6 schools can't schedule high level games around Valentine's Day, so counting games around Valentine's Day more helps P6 schools and hurts everyone else. And there are a lot more everyone else's than there are P6s.

We can not like it and complain about it all we want, but for the majority of the schools in the NCAA, a very large majority in fact, counting all games the same and emphasizing non-conference strength of schedule is better for them. And that's why it's like that.

 

[Ullys92]

Honestly, had Pitt and UVa swapped SEC opponents and kept the same results (Pitt loses to A&M at home, UVa beats Mizzou at home), Pitt is in over UVa without even a question. Pretty stupid and why its also stupid to play these season-determining games around Thanksgiving.

I don't think that would have been enough I think main reasons why UVA got picked over Pitt was:

1) They beat Florida on a Neutral, we lost to FL on a neutral. --> They had 2 non con wins over tournament teams (TA&M) we had 0
2) No Loss outside of Q1+2. Worst team that beat UVA was 75 @ Memphis, and Memphis was 26 in the Net at that time. Our worst loss was at home, vs Mizzou (that finished on a 19 loss streak)
3) They finished alone in 3rd place of the ACC (idiot committee doesn't look into unbalanced scheduling of the ACC)
4) Their NET OOC SOS was much better than ours (157 vs 343)

Purely based on resume we weren't close enough so that the H2H matters.

But that really shows that it shouldn't be just about resume.

Metrics (Net, Kenpom etc.), Recent Form and H2H could and should have outweighed all of the reasons above, but that's not the process right now.

 

[pitt-girl]

I don't think that would have been enough I think main reasons why UVA got picked over Pitt was:

1) They beat Florida on a Neutral, we lost to FL on a neutral. --> They had 2 non con wins over tournament teams (TA&M) we had 0
2) No Loss outside of Q1+2. Worst team that beat UVA was 75 @ Memphis, and Memphis was 26 in the Net at that time. Our worst loss was at home, vs Mizzou (that finished on a 19 loss streak)
3) They finished alone in 3rd place of the ACC (idiot committee doesn't look into unbalanced scheduling of the ACC)
4) Their NET OOC SOS was much better than ours (157 vs 343)

Purely based on resume we weren't close enough so that the H2H matters.

But that really shows that it shouldn't be just about resume.

Metrics (Net, Kenpom etc.), Recent Form and H2H could and should have outweighed all of the reasons above, but that's not the process right now.

I've read this in the last few days by multiple talking heads - an instant upgrade to the Committee would be having a couple retired coaches involved in the selections.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

3) They finished alone in 3rd place of the ACC (idiot committee doesn't look into unbalanced scheduling of the ACC)

Actually the idiot committee doesn't even look at the ACC's, or any other conference's, standings.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I don't think that would have been enough I think main reasons why UVA got picked over Pitt was:

1) They beat Florida on a Neutral, we lost to FL on a neutral. --> They had 2 non con wins over tournament teams (TA&M) we had 0
2) No Loss outside of Q1+2. Worst team that beat UVA was 75 @ Memphis, and Memphis was 26 in the Net at that time. Our worst loss was at home, vs Mizzou (that finished on a 19 loss streak)
3) They finished alone in 3rd place of the ACC (idiot committee doesn't look into unbalanced scheduling of the ACC)
4) Their NET OOC SOS was much better than ours (157 vs 343)

Purely based on resume we weren't close enough so that the H2H matters.

But that really shows that it shouldn't be just about resume.

Metrics (Net, Kenpom etc.), Recent Form and H2H could and should have outweighed all of the reasons above, but that's not the process right now.

Had they beat Mizzou and we lost to A&M, we eliminate a Q3 loss and our NET is like 35 and their's would be like 60. We missed by 1 game. Really, pick any of our games to change and we're in.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

UVa had 2 Q1 wins. Had they beat Mizzou and we lost to A&M, we eliminate a Q3 loss and our NET is like 35 and their's would be like 60.

And no team with a NET of 35 has ever gotten left out, and no team with a NET of 60 has ever gotten in.

Wait a second....

By the way, what if they beat Missouri by 50 and we lost to A&M by 50? Then their NET would be better and ours would be worse.

 

[str61166]

The sick joke would be if next year Pitt did really well in the non conference slate, but mediocre in conference play and missed because of that. Kind of like Oklahoma this past season.

 

[WillyDavis33]

NC State won yesterday and pretty sure Pitt beat them both games this year! We had a good in conference record and most years that would have propelled us into the tourney!

Going into the season I thought our OCC was okay and afterwards the committee says no based on our OCC. Picking VA over Pitt is a problem with the ACC brass and that needs to be addressed behind closed doors!

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

And no team with a NET of 35 has ever gotten left out, and no team with a NET of 60 has ever gotten in.

Wait a second....

By the way, what if they beat Missouri by 50 and we lost to A&M by 50? Then their NET would be better and ours would be worse.

UVa wouldn't beat me, you, Werewolf, BballinsiderfromPitt and whatever handle Recruits is using nowadays by 50. Would probably be 57-12. They cant score. But even if UVa beat Mizzou by 20 and we lost to A&M by 20, we are in.