Top Ranked Teams

[dougpaper]

Interesting to me at least that when you look at maybe the top 30-35 teams in football and basketball there are countless examples of a appalacian state pulling off a upset of Michigan, or Pitt football beating Clemson and same in basketball where a hot night can trigger lower rung teams to beat the top teams.

If you look at wresting and just my opinion but the top 5-6 teams will never lose to anybody outside of that ranking. It is awesome to have the pitt team climbing but we will need solid classes for the next 3-4 years to climb into a position of being able to challenge in every weight class similar to the penn states and ohio states. We have something to look forward to.

 

[pafootballguy]

Can Pitt put a lineup together that wins the ACC every yes and a lineup that can crack the top 5 every 3-4 years yes but I am not sure they will ever be in a position to do it year in and year out.

 

[omega]

I think Pitt has the right coach to be a top 5 type of program. We sit in a hotbed of talent. We need better facilities/RTC, and some time to put it all together. I suspect that the time is directly proportionate to funding. I think we could field a top team in as few as 3 years, or we could hover in the top 20 for a decade.

 

[mike412]

I disagree. If you look at the top teams today, 10-15 years ago I think only PSU, Iowa and Oklahoma State would have been in the top 5. Iowa State would have been up there and maybe Michigan or Missouri or Oklahoma. TOSU, VT and NC State are all within the last decade. So is Cornell.

Iowa State and Oklahoma pretty much fell off the end of the world. Iowa State is making a comeback, but the jury is still out on how much of one. There were some years when ASU was top 5 or 6 too. Michigan and Missouri have been a little up and down — almost always top ten but not always top 5.

It’s not going to be easy to crack the top 5 regularly, but it’s not impossible either.

 

[thom67]

I disagree. If you look at the top teams today, 10-15 years ago I think only PSU, Iowa and Oklahoma State would have been in the top 5. Iowa State would have been up there and maybe Michigan or Missouri or Oklahoma. TOSU, VT and NC State are all within the last decade. So is Cornell.

Iowa State and Oklahoma pretty much fell off the end of the world. Iowa State is making a comeback, but the jury is still out on how much of one. There were some years when ASU was top 5 or 6 too. Michigan and Missouri have been a little up and down — almost always top ten but not always top 5.

It’s not going to be easy to crack the top 5 regularly, but it’s not impossible either.

If you go back 10 years, PSU was not a top 5 team. Only since Cael came 9-10 years ago did PSU become a power. Top 5 were Iowa, OSU, Minnesota, ISU(with Cael and Bobby Douglas) and then the rest of the teams including ASU, PSU, tOSU, occ Mich, OU, and others. ISU fell off the cliff when Cael left the school high and dry. Cael killed the ISU program.

 

[FriendofPittWrestling]

PSU did have top five performances before Cael but certainly didn't have the perennial national championships. Having said that, I don't know why Pitt shouldn't expect routinely top five performances in the future. I believe it all hinges on the RTC.

Relative to the other top five programs...the university's prestige can more than compete. The city and campus life can more than compete. Job opportunities after school can more than compete. Car and air travel is easier than those other schools. There is no difference in recruiting grounds. The tradition is there. Now, the coaches are there.

Really, it comes down to money, RTC, and time. How cool would it be to have an annual triangle between Ohio State, Pitt, and PSU for the national championship each year.

 

[Nish67]

Thanks for emphasizing the importance of the RTC. I think most alums don't understand that workout partners is so important to the top kids. RTC is great with lightweights with Samat and Nico. Need a good middleweight and a couple of others. All dependent on donations. Can't emphasize this enough.

 

[pafootballguy]

PSU did have top five performances before Cael but certainly didn't have the perennial national championships. Having said that, I don't know why Pitt shouldn't expect routinely top five performances in the future. I believe it all hinges on the RTC.

Relative to the other top five programs...the university's prestige can more than compete. The city and campus life can more than compete. Job opportunities after school can more than compete. Car and air travel is easier than those other schools. There is no difference in recruiting grounds. The tradition is there. Now, the coaches are there.

Really, it comes down to money, RTC, and time. How cool would it be to have an annual triangle between Ohio State, Pitt, and PSU for the national championship each year.

The optimism is great but Gavin is no Cael and I am not sure what it will take for him to consistently start recruiting at the level needed (top 10-20 P4P) to compete with OSU, Iowa, PSU, and Okie State. Also, the ACC is an improving wrestling conference but I think that it will also hold Pitt back from getting to the top. They have had some individual success but are not known for pumping out a ton of great wrestlers. As for some other programs poised to maybe make a jump in the next few years I like Michigan, Minny, and Nebraska in that order.

 

[FriendofPittWrestling]

PAFootball guy,

You have demonstrated to be a knowledgeable guy as it pertains to wrestling organizations. You previously based most of your opinion of the NLWC/PSU success on their 5 million endowment and the money they raise each year allowing them to leave that principle untouched.

I understand your well reasoned opinion that only a select 3-5 universities are capable of winning a national championship because of the RTC and money they raise outside of the direct athletic department budget.

Above you suggested recruiting concerns and your opinion that, Cael Sanderson has particular personality or organizational skills that Gavin and Co do not have. (And no, I do not take that as you denigrating Keith Gavin, although I do think you are selling Gavin and Co short). How do you compare Cael, Gavin, or for that matter, to those other top programs you listed as capable of making the jump ( Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska).

Can you illustrate your thoughts on the easier path to success of those programs in more detail? I still do not see a marked advantage of those programs other than money and the RTC. In fact, I see Pitt has significant advantages - particularly over those other schools like Lehigh, Cornel, NC State, that have made runs at the top. (watch what happens when Popolitsioand his brothers wrestling club team in NY leave for another job) If we were solely depending on the Pitt Athletic Department, as in years past, I would whole heartedly agree. But the RTC gives control to the wrestling program that never existed before.

 

[FriendofPittWrestling]

Sorry for the re-post but some people might not have seen this on the older RTC thread. Its just Gavin and Co first full year and their first recruiting class is still in red shirts.

Connect the dots !!

Samat Nadyrbek Uulu Samat is an international wrestler from Krgyzstan who trains at Pittsburgh wrestling club as a resident athlete.
Kyrgyz World Team Member at 57 Kg
Asian Championship Runner Up
World University Games Runner Up
NYAC Champion
Dave Schultz Memorial Champion (2017)

2019 Freestyle World Cup
USA line up
57Kg Sanders, Richards
61Kg Megaludis
65Kg Retherford
70Kg Chamberlen
74Kg Martinez
79Kg Gannt
86Kg Brooks
92Kg Zilmer
97Kg Gadson
125Kg Nelson

Seven Pitt wrestlers ranked by coaches panel
Tribune Review/Jerry DiPaola February 14,2019

https://triblive.com/sports/college...-wrestlers-ranked-nationally-by-coaches-panel

Phillippi (15-2) is fourth in the rankings and No. 1 in the first RPI listing of the season.

"I don't think Micky is so worried about Daton Fix when he is wrestling with Samat and Nico every day. Micky knows Daton is hoping he can be as good as Mickys work out partners some day".


Cole Matthews wins Edinboro Open
"Just went back and watched all his matches from the tournament on flo today. He looked good, his shots early looked quick and crisp he looks pretty strong and aggressive. If he keeps developing he will be a good wrestler for us the next 4 years"

Three Sign LOI
Colton Camacho
At his signing, he was ranked 14 th in the nation at 138 by FloWrestling. (I believe he is hurt as he is not currently ranked) As a sophomore he went 35-9, won sections, placed 3rd in the WPIAL. He DNP at states but placed 8th at Powerade.
As a junior he went 40-3, won sections and WPIALs, placed 2nd at states, placed 7th at Flo Nationals, 3rd at Junior Nationals, and 3rd at Powerade.

Ryan Sullivan
Currently ranked 6th in the country at 126 by FloWrestling. As a sophomore he went 39-4 placing 2nd in the WPIAL and at States. As a junior he finished 42-1 with both WPIAL and PIAA titles.

 

[FriendofPittWrestling]

Copied below is one of your oldie but goodies from 2009 PAFootball Guy!

Here is an interesting read about the NLWC club, their financing and what that money allows.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/sports/wrestling/article_9dfce5d6-48e4-11e8-96ae-6b97773a76ab.html

The NLWC is on another level financially compared to the rest of the sport and not something any other program will have access to but it shows how money opens all kinds of doors. PSU has guys willing to wait 3-4 years to get into the lineup just to train in that room.

I will also add that ACC wrestling is headed in a very good direction and the league is getting stronger and may bypass the Big 12 if hasn't already.

 

[Dallas Burgher]

I think Pitt has the right coach to be a top 5 type of program. We sit in a hotbed of talent. We need better facilities/RTC, and some time to put it all together. I suspect that the time is directly proportionate to funding. I think we could field a top team in as few as 3 years, or we could hover in the top 20 for a decade.

What does RTC stand for?

 

[pafootballguy]

What does RTC stand for?

Regional Training Center (NLWC, Ohio Wrestling Club, and Pitt Wrestling Club are RTCs) and they are basically mini Olympic Training Centers fund by individual donors. Every member of team USA trains at one of these centers along with training at USA Wrestling in Colorado Springs. They are independent of the schools but use the facilities (wrestling room, weights, training rooms, etc.) and offer a ton of benefits to the school. A high-level RTC helps in recruiting because it gives the elite high school guys place to train for freestyle after there college careers. It also helps with team development because it can bring in elite training partners for the wrestlers to work with, imagine how much training every day with David Taylor has helped Bo Nickal.

There is also some gray area surrounding the wrestling clubs and paying wrestlers from the school to work camps for the club.

 

[pafootballguy]

PAFootball guy,

You have demonstrated to be a knowledgeable guy as it pertains to wrestling organizations. You previously based most of your opinion of the NLWC/PSU success on their 5 million endowment and the money they raise each year allowing them to leave that principle untouched.

I understand your well reasoned opinion that only a select 3-5 universities are capable of winning a national championship because of the RTC and money they raise outside of the direct athletic department budget.

Above you suggested recruiting concerns and your opinion that, Cael Sanderson has particular personality or organizational skills that Gavin and Co do not have. (And no, I do not take that as you denigrating Keith Gavin, although I do think you are selling Gavin and Co short). How do you compare Cael, Gavin, or for that matter, to those other top programs you listed as capable of making the jump ( Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska).

Can you illustrate your thoughts on the easier path to success of those programs in more detail? I still do not see a marked advantage of those programs other than money and the RTC. In fact, I see Pitt has significant advantages - particularly over those other schools like Lehigh, Cornel, NC State, that have made runs at the top. (watch what happens when Popolitsioand his brothers wrestling club team in NY leave for another job) If we were solely depending on the Pitt Athletic Department, as in years past, I would whole heartedly agree. But the RTC gives control to the wrestling program that never existed before.

The rise of PSU has everything to do with Cael but with that said the main reason they got Cael was because of the finances.

I am not trying to sell Gavin short and he may become an elite coach but if you compare him to Cael, John Smith, Tom Brands and Tom Ryan he has a long way to go and will struggle to recruit against them because of the proven success they have had in developing guys into NCAA champions and more importantly world champions. Wrestling recruiting is different than football recruiting where you can sell hope and vision while the elite high schools wrestlers have dreams of being individual champions at the NCAA level and the international level and they tend to go programs that have proven they can develop them into that or they go to schools with coaches that who have won at the top of the sport. A good example of that is Cael early in his career, guys committed to him not because he had a history of developing talent but because he did it himself. For Gavin and Pitt to take the next step and start getting real looks from the top 20 P4P guys he will need to bring in a guy and develop him into an NCAA champion and have some real international success, program building generally does not happen overnight will take time if it happens.

As for why I think Michigan, Minny, and Nebraska may be in a position to take the next step?

Michigan – Sean Bormet is a proven coach and developer of talent on the freestyle side and the top guys all have major freestyle aspirations. With Bormet they have taken a step up recruiting bringing in 2 top 20 P4P guys this year and working on doing it again this year.

Minnesota – They are a traditional wrestling schools with history on their side winning a team championship in 2007 and finishing second as recently as 2014. They had a bumpy run at the end of Jay Robinson career but Eggum seems to have righted the ship and getting Gable Steveson was huge for him. With getting Gable they will have a multiple time NCAA champion and probably someone who give them international success.

Nebraska – I am less bullish on them but they have proven they can develop guys for the international level and that something they can sell.

This will probably come off as sounding like I am a Big Ten homer but I don't think you can undersell the benefit the conference has in attracting high-level talent. Nothing beats having a great wrestling room but also competing against the very best in the country is important.

As for Pitt and Gavin, I think they will be dominating the ACC in a couple of years and making serious runs at the top 5 and even top 2-3 finishes at the NCAA championships with a handful of All Americans and 1 or 2 legitimate NCs contenders every year, but it has been shown in the last few years finishing in the top 2-3 is not always competing for championships. In reality, I really struggle to see a team outside the Big Ten and really outside Iowa, OSU, PSU winning a National Championship any time soon (5 years). In the short term, the best thing for Pitt would be Micky winning a NC this year but at least making a serious run at the finals because it would give Gavin another thing to sell.

 

[FriendofPittWrestling]

Thanks PAFootballGuy. Good points for sure but winning provides a lot of answers. Gavin is in his first real year so everyone needs to understand its a process that takes time.

From my perspective, from a purely wrestling perspective, Gavin's advantage is, he learned how to win. He needs to flaunt the fact that he wrote the book on how positioning and technique can maximize ability and, as a result, he has been swimming in those international waters for ten years. I don't think a lot of highschoolers know this ( or what Drew Headlee freestyle experience has been)

Gavin's approach to competition has made him successful - even though everyone else supposedly had more ability and reputation. No everyone can be a Jordan Burroughs athletically, but lot more guys might be Keith Gavin. He needs to convince recruits he can transfer this knowledge and experience to them.

My hope is that he promotes this, and then highschoolers see Pitt kids start winning and put two and two together. I don't think the advantages you listed above will be so dramatic.

Then, the money/RTC issue really kicks in.

A run by Micky or Meech and maybe even Nino this year or next ...could make thinking about that sixth year interesting.

 

[pafootballguy]

The bottom line is Pitt having a top-level program would be good for the sport and that is what I want to see because the more competitive programs we have the better. Every person who starts as a casual fan of the sport because Pitt is trending in the right direction is a great thing because casual fans become lovers of the sports and that is what it needs.

 

[Dallas Burgher]

Regional Training Center (NLWC, Ohio Wrestling Club, and Pitt Wrestling Club are RTCs) and they are basically mini Olympic Training Centers fund by individual donors. Every member of team USA trains at one of these centers along with training at USA Wrestling in Colorado Springs. They are independent of the schools but use the facilities (wrestling room, weights, training rooms, etc.) and offer a ton of benefits to the school. A high-level RTC helps in recruiting because it gives the elite high school guys place to train for freestyle after there college careers. It also helps with team development because it can bring in elite training partners for the wrestlers to work with, imagine how much training every day with David Taylor has helped Bo Nickal.

There is also some gray area surrounding the wrestling clubs and paying wrestlers from the school to work camps for the club.

Thanks, I couldn't figure it out.