Unpleasant assessment

[Swervin27]

is this a boyd vs. conner fight? One thing about Boyd, and I really like Boyd, but I don't think he effected how defenses played us as much as youd think. Mainly due to most of his receptions were within 10 yards of LOS.. It's not like you had to respect him going deep.. No fault of his really, he's only 1 man and that's not his strong suit. even if it was, Nate throwing deep isn't pretty..

 

[steel_curtain]

is this a boyd vs. conner fight? One thing about Boyd, and I really like Boyd, but I don't think he effected how defenses played us as much as youd think. Mainly due to most of his receptions were within 10 yards of LOS.. It's not like you had to respect him going deep.. No fault of his really, he's only 1 man and that's not his strong suit. even if it was, Nate throwing deep isn't pretty..

-The point is player value. Boyd's value to Pitt is so grossly overrated is isnt even funny. Then again you have posters on this board saying a tailback that scores 13 TD's for an entire season should be a 1st Team All American. Touchdowns = Value

 

[Swervin27]

-The point is player value. Boyd's value to Pitt is so grossly overrated is isnt even funny. Then again you have posters on this board saying a tailback that scores 13 TD's for an entire season should be a 1st Team All American. Touchdowns = Value

not sure what metrics you are using.. I love Conner but we won 8 games without him last year.. You have JC on last year's squad and you take off Boyd, we don't win 5 games.. No fault of Boyd's, moreso that our WRs would be Ford and Challingsworth, talk about scary..

Do we have to denigrate one to promote the other? Both are very important to us. A thousand factors can influence value.. So Conner has 13 TDs, are you saying without him, we don't score those TDs? What's to say Ollison, if given those exact same carries, wouldn't score them, or Hall, or whitehead.. It's not like you take Conner out, that we score 13 less TDs.. Same with Boyd, it's not like you take him out, we don't have someone else catch those balls.

Come this fall, Nate is probably our most "Valuable" player. By this I mean, if we lose him, it would have the biggest effect.. It would basically mean at least 2 if not more losses.. Doesn't mean he is the best, not even close... Has to do more with our second best QB on next year's roster is getting ready for prom right now..

 

[steel_curtain]

not sure what metrics you are using.. I love Conner but we won 8 games without him last year.. You have JC on last year's squad and you take off Boyd, we don't win 5 games.. No fault of Boyd's, moreso that our WRs would be Ford and Challingsworth, talk about scary..

-That's your opinion. All we did was throw little short wrinky dink passes to Boyd. He was no deep player threat. He was no slant threat. He was no gamebreaker threat. He was little 10 yards per catch player. When you have the ball thrown to you 150 times, you should put some type of production up. Boyd would be perfect for Tom Brady and New England, move the ball 6 yards on every pass.

-Boyd's gone now. We'll see if Pitt wins 5 games this year. Place that bet in Vegas, go for it.

 

[KennyTheKangaroo]

steel curtain's selective memory is pretty impressive.

 

[Swervin27]

-That's your opinion. All we did was throw little short wrinky dink passes to Boyd. He was no deep player threat. He was no slant threat. He was no gamebreaker threat. He was little 10 yards per catch player. When you have the ball thrown to you 150 times, you should put some type of production up. Boyd would be perfect for Tom Brady and New England, move the ball 6 yards on every pass.

-Boyd's gone now. We'll see if Pitt wins 5 games this year. Place that bet in Vegas, go for it.

Vegas line I saw has over/under Pitt with 6.5 wins.. If it was 5, I'd bet everything I had on it.. You want to bet? You name it, i'll give you 5 and under.. I wont even count bowl game either. Please take that bet PLEASE

 

[Swervin27]

-That's your opinion. All we did was throw little short wrinky dink passes to Boyd. He was no deep player threat. He was no slant threat. He was no gamebreaker threat. He was little 10 yards per catch player. When you have the ball thrown to you 150 times, you should put some type of production up. Boyd would be perfect for Tom Brady and New England, move the ball 6 yards on every pass.

-Boyd's gone now. We'll see if Pitt wins 5 games this year. Place that bet in Vegas, go for it.

that had nothing to do with Boyd.. Year before and his freshman year, he was deep threat all to often.. Fact that we had no one else was more to do with how he was used.. you need a re-fresher course..

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tyler+boyd+highlights+2014+

 

[Swervin27]

steel curtain's selective memory is pretty impressive.

I am not sure I get his argument. He says Conner is better than Watson, ok fair enough but not sure what's going on with his opinion on Boyd and how that relates to Conner's value..

 

[steel_curtain]

Vegas line I saw has over/under Pitt with 6.5 wins.. If it was 5, I'd bet everything I had on it.. You want to bet? You name it, i'll give you 5 and under.. I wont even count bowl game either. Please take that bet PLEASE

-You said Pitt wouldnt win 5 games without Boyd. That is what you said. Boyd is gone.

 

[Swervin27]

-You said Pitt wouldnt win 5 games without Boyd. That is what you said. Boyd is gone.

oh, ok. Well yes, my opinion is, last year's season, if we had Conner and we did not have Boyd, this team would go 5-7 or worse. Again, absolutely no knock on Conner as much as it is an indication of how poor our WR group is. I definitely believe this. You want me to bet on this? A hypothetical? Do sports books take such a wager?

If you are talking about this upcoming season, I absolutely think pitt will win more than 5 games, so does the vegas betting lines.. I cant bet on this because no bookie would give me that line of 5 wins.. But if you would, I will definitely wager anything on us winning 6 or more

 

[steel_curtain]

oh, ok. Well yes, my opinion is, last year's season, if we had Conner and we did not have Boyd, this team would go 5-7 or worse. Again, absolutely no knock on Conner as much as it is an indication of how poor our WR group is. I definitely believe this. You want me to bet on this? A hypothetical? Do sports books take such a wager?

-Boyd is gone now. You basically said Pitt's WR core is a laughing joke. We'll see if Ford can make little 8 yard catches like Boyd. Ford averaged 19 yards per catch last year with 500 total yards and only had 26 receptions. Let's see what he does if the ball is thrown to him 150 times in a season.

 

[Swervin27]

-Boyd is gone now. You basically said Pitt's WR core is a laughing joke. We'll see if Ford can make little 8 yard catches like Boyd. Ford averaged 19 yards per catch last year with 500 total yards and only had 26 receptions. Let's see what he does if the ball is thrown to him 150 times in a season.

if they throw the ball to ford 150 times, I will carve my eyeballs out of my head using a plastic spoon. Not a fork, not even s spork but a spoon and plastic so it will hurt even more.. I said last year's WR group, after Boyd, was scary.. I have faith that the collective unit will be better.. Steel_Curtain, we are getting off track here man.. Why are we talking about Ford now?

 

[steel_curtain]

if they throw the ball to ford 150 times, I will carve my eyeballs out of my head using a plastic spoon. Not a fork, not even s spork but a spoon and plastic so it will hurt even more..

-The point is 2 fold. 1, he'll have more than 500 yards and 2 TD's, I guarantee that. 2, Boyd's value, which is grossly overrated. This goes back to Steeler fans trying to tell me the passing game would suffer when Mike Wallace left. There's no point in going further with you. Pitt will be just fine without Boyd.

 

[Swervin27]

-The point is 2 fold. 1, he'll have more than 500 yards and 2 TD's, I guarantee that. 2, Boyd's value, which is grossly overrated. This goes back to Steeler fans trying to tell me the passing game would suffer when Mike Wallace left. There's no point in going further with you. Pitt will be just fine without Boyd.

OK, well I too agree that pitt will be fine without Boyd.. I'll go as far to say that I expect the passing game as a whole, to be better than last year's.. But the same could be said with Conner.. We lost him last year and we had our best year since Wanny.. 1 man does not break or make a team. Pitt fans with such great players as McCoy and Fitz should know this more than anyone..

Curtain, I honestly think you and I feel the same way, we are just saying it differently. I thought Wallace would hurt us too, I was way off on that one.. Ford will have more than 500 yards? Not counting bowl game, that's about 41 yards per game.. Id agree with you on this.. 2 tds? I sure as hell hope our starting Wr has more than 2 tds..

Here is a question. Our top 3 WRs last year had app. 1600 yards receiving. Now I left out JP and Ordoff, lets say Mr. Wonderful puts up JP numbers so they wash themselves out. Question, will our top 3 Wrs have more yards and more TDs (9) this year than last? I think without a doubt, hence my prediction of this year's WR group being more productive than last year's..

 

[thebadby2]

You're right man losing Boyd does not hurt at all and James Conner is guaranteed to come back and be Pre-Cancer James Conner. You are really tough to take seriously. You would swear Pitt was Alabama the way you talk. If you do not think losing Boyd is going to hurt, you are nuts and not just for the 6TD's and 80 receptions that need replaced. It will change the way defenses defend the entire Offense.

You can't engage this guy. It's like arguing with a child. He is incredible, one of the most ridiculous posters ever to appear on this board.

 

[steel_curtain]

You can't engage this guy. It's like arguing with a child. He is incredible, one of the most ridiculous posters ever to appear on this board.

-Says the guy who thinks a tailback that scores 13 TD's in a complete season is a 1st Team All American, playing on an offense that doesnt rank in the top 10 in the country. Right.

 

[Swervin27]

-Says the guy who thinks a tailback that scores 13 TD's in a complete season is a 1st Team All American, playing on an offense that doesnt rank in the top 10 in the country. Right.

Wait a sec, so you think Conner is over rated and Boyd is grossly over rated? Jesus Christ Curtain, what's the deal here bro? is anyone on our team good?

 

[steel_curtain]

Wait a sec, so you think Conner is over rated and Boyd is grossly over rated? Jesus Christ Curtain, what's the deal here bro? is anyone on our team good?

-No. I think Conner healthy is the best running back in the entire country, BAR NONE. I think Boyd is overrated. I think Pitt fans have some massive hardon for Clemson and Clemson's players, that I also think are overrated, including Gallmen, the Clemson tailback that is a wannabe James Conner who scored a paltry 13 TD's last year. When Gallmen breaks Conner's all time ACC single season TD record, the rest of the Pitt fanbase can surely let me know.

 

[Swervin27]

-No. I think Conner healthy is the best running back in the entire country, BAR NONE. I think Boyd is overrated. I think Pitt fans have some massive hardon for Clemson and Clemson's players, that I also think are overrated, including Gallmen, the Clemson tailback that is a wannabe James Conner who scored a paltry 13 TD's last year. When Gallmen breaks Conner's all time ACC single season TD record, the rest of the Pitt fanbase can surely let me know.

LOL, ok, thank you. Watson is awesome as is Boyd but we'll agree to disagree on that .. Conner is the man, glad we are both on board here.

 

[H2Pittisit]

-No. I think Conner healthy is the best running back in the entire country, BAR NONE. I think Boyd is overrated. I think Pitt fans have some massive hardon for Clemson and Clemson's players, that I also think are overrated, including Gallmen, the Clemson tailback that is a wannabe James Conner who scored a paltry 13 TD's last year. When Gallmen breaks Conner's all time ACC single season TD record, the rest of the Pitt fanbase can surely let me know.

I don't think you watch many football games that aren't played by Pitt Panthers.

 

[steel_curtain]

I don't think you watch many football games that aren't played by Pitt Panthers.

-I watch a lot of games. You want Gallmen over Conner, so be it.

 

[thebadby2]

-The point is player value. Boyd's value to Pitt is so grossly overrated is isnt even funny. Then again you have posters on this board saying a tailback that scores 13 TD's for an entire season should be a 1st Team All American. Touchdowns = Value

Your argument is idiotic, which is your trademark. There are so many variables that go into how many TD's a player scores, that stat can't be used to meaningfully measure the quality or talent of a player. Here are but a few:

• Is the team's offensive scheme pass-heavy, run-heavy, or balanced
  
• Does the team have a short yardage RB/goal line specialist
• does the team use multiple RBs throughout the game and in the red zone
  
• does the team throw the ball more than average in the red zone
  
• does the team's offensive scheme call for the QB to score a lot of rushing TDs
• does the team have a strong O line
• does the team's opponent have a strong defensive front-i.e., which team is controlling the LOI

Your gold standard is Derrick Henry. he had 28 of Bama's 33 rushing TDs last year. He is unquestionably a beast and a deserving Heisman winner. Yet Clemson had 34 rushing TDs last year, and had 14 more combined rushing/receiving TDs than Alabama on the season. Did Alabama's TDs count for more than Clemson's because Derrick Henry scored most of them?

Alabama was the best team in the country last year, as they are most years, because they had the best overall team talent in the country by a mile, and mostly because they were playing college football with a NFL defense all season--7 rushing TDs all season says it all--yet they needed a 95 yard kickoff return to win that game. They also needed explosive plays in the passing game to score and get in position to score in the red zone. Henry had 2 1-yard TDs behind the best OL in college football. That;s great, but it doesn't support your childishly simplistic argument--at all.

The player of the game was a WR who went for 200 yards, scored twice and at least once put Bama in the red zone for Henry to walk in from the one.

As for Boyd, his importance to Pitt speaks for itself--he was the entire passing game for us the last two years. He accounted for nearly 50% of our receptions both years. So in your eyes he;s not very valuable because he didn't score much last year? You think we can just line up and run the ball every down and win a lot of games that way?

The top rushing TD scorer in the country last year--and of all-time--was a QB. The #2 guy last year was named Kenneth Dixon. Are they the two best players in the country--better than Derrick Henry, Dalvan Cook, Wayne Gallman--because they have the most rushing TDs?

 

[steel_curtain]

Your argument is idiotic, which is your trademark. There are so many variables that go into how many TD's a player scores, that stat can't be used to meaningfully measure the quality or talent of a player. Here are but a few:

• Is the team's offensive scheme pass-heavy, run-heavy, or balanced
  
• Does the team have a short yardage RB/goal line specialist
• does the team use multiple RBs throughout the game and in the red zone
  
• does the team throw the ball more than average in the red zone
  
• does the team's offensive scheme call for the QB to score a lot of rushing TDs
• does the team have a strong O line
• does the team's opponent have a strong defensive front-i.e., which team is controlling the LOI

Your gold standard is Derrick Henry. he had 28 of Bama's 33 rushing TDs last year. He is unquestionably a beast and a deserving Heisman winner. Yet Clemson had 34 rushing TDs last year, and had 14 more combined rushing/receiving TDs than Alabama on the season. Did Alabama's TDs count for more than Clemson's because Derrick Henry scored most of them?

Alabama was the best team in the country last year, as they are most years, because they had the best overall team talent in the country by a mile, and mostly because they were playing college football with a NFL defense all season--7 rushing TDs all season says it all--yet they needed a 95 yard kickoff return to win that game. They also needed explosive plays in the passing game to score and get in position to score in the red zone. Henry had 2 1-yard TDs behind the best OL in college football. That;s great, but it doesn't support your childishly simplistic argument--at all.

The player of the game was a WR who went for 200 yards, scored twice and at least once put Bama in the red zone for Henry to walk in from the one.

As for Boyd, his importance to Pitt speaks for itself--he was the entire passing game for us the last two years. He accounted for nearly 50% of our receptions both years. So in your eyes he;s not very valuable because he didn't score much last year? You think we can just line up and run the ball every down and win a lot of games that way?

The top rushing TD scorer in the country last year--and of all-time--was a QB. The #2 guy last year was named Kenneth Dixon. Are they the two best players in the country--better than Derrick Henry, Dalvan Cook, Wayne Gallman--because they have the most rushing TDs?

-Saban has the same concept as me. Which is different than most Pitt fans replying to me. Stack the Defensive line and get a monster tailback. Notice Alabama never has Elite Qb's, never. Notice they always have Elite running backs.

-Saban loads up the D-line. Alabama has multiple Dline prospects going in the 1st round this year, again. They stuff the run, year in, year out. D-line, most important position in college football.

-Alabama has zero o-line 1st round draft picks. Ryan Kelly is probably a 2nd round center. Pump the breaks on the greatness of the Alabama O-line. Henry trucked Clemson for 3TD's at 160 yards on the ground, just like he did every other team. Crediting Alabama's oline that has zero Elite talent going into the NFL draft is pure comedy. It was Henry, not the O-line, that steamrolled defenders. Henry averaged 102.8 yards per game AFTER contact for the entire season, which represents 70 percent of his rushing yards. Meaning his o-line did shit for his dominance.

-Alabama won the game by 2 touchdowns. 2

-Players that score TD's are valuable, as is redzone offense. Getting stuffed in the redzone because you dont have a tailback or run game to drive it into the teeth of the defense is the coaches fault, period. Spread offenses are junk. Oregon is junk when they play SEC teams with power D-lines. Marcus Marriota got shut down in the National Title game because of defense. Cam Newton got shutdown in the superbowl because of defense. Alabama shuts teams downs on defense, and runs it down your throat. Narduzzi will try to do the same gameplan. If you want to watch a spread, Oregon or Clemson has room on the bus.

-As for running the ball down teams throats. 1995 Nebraska, the greatest team in college football history, did just that. You could put 11 guys in the box because you knew they were running, but you were not going to stop them, period.

 

[OriginalEther]

Goodness this thread has gone off the rails....

 

[revampedpanthers]

not going to argue the boyd vs conner but I can guarantee you this group of RB's left a ton of yards on the field last year. With Conner those 3 yards and first guy who hits them tackles them would have been 8 yarders. I didn't honestly think losing Conner would have had as big of a impact as it did.

 

[OriginalEther]

not going to argue the boyd vs conner but I can guarantee you this group of RB's left a ton of yards on the field last year. With Conner those 3 yards and first guy who hits them tackles them would have been 8 yarders. I didn't honestly think losing Conner would have had as big of a impact as it did.

Losing Ibrahim hurt also. I seem to remember games where Conner struggled but Ibrahim ran wild.

 

[steel_curtain]

not going to argue the boyd vs conner but I can guarantee you this group of RB's left a ton of yards on the field last year. With Conner those 3 yards and first guy who hits them tackles them would have been 8 yarders. I didn't honestly think losing Conner would have had as big of a impact as it did.

-The biggest difference is obviously Conner, and the speed players we brought in. Whitehead averaged 10 yards per carry last year. Boyd averaged 8.7 yards per carry. With Conner you pound the defense, especially in the red zone, then you gash the defense with speed. We were 41st in rush yards nationally and 81st in rush td's. The year prior with healthy Conner, we were 14th in the country in rush yards and 14th in the country in rush td's.

-You get a healthy Conner, or somewhat healthy Conner, then a blazer like George Hill who pushes 4.3 speed, you have a Thunder Lighning Combo that is going to look really good. And you have Moss, Ollison, and a bevy of others to change up the pace and look. We have the tools to dominate the run game.

-We also have massive speed coming in. You can mix and match players in the slot and put the speed blazers in there to back the defense off. That can really open things up. We have the players to have a considerably better offense then last year. Conner obviously is #1 to making this happen. When you have a RB that runs like a freight train, defenses get worn down much faster.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Okay...
Please quantify how much we spent on staff two years ago compared to now.
Thanks

Repeatedly saying so, doesn't make it true.

Just wanted to reiterate this question to the conventional wisdom.

I'll go as far as to say, any increase in spending for staff is a matter of market adjustments.

 

[thebadby2]

-The biggest difference is obviously Conner, and the speed players we brought in. Whitehead averaged 10 yards per carry last year. Boyd averaged 8.7 yards per carry. With Conner you pound the defense, especially in the red zone, then you gash the defense with speed. We were 41st in rush yards nationally and 81st in rush td's. The year prior with healthy Conner, we were 14th in the country in rush yards and 14th in the country in rush td's.

-You get a healthy Conner, or somewhat healthy Conner, then a blazer like George Hill who pushes 4.3 speed, you have a Thunder Lighning Combo that is going to look really good. And you have Moss, Ollison, and a bevy of others to change up the pace and look. We have the tools to dominate the run game.

-We also have massive speed coming in. You can mix and match players in the slot and put the speed blazers in there to back the defense off. That can really open things up. We have the players to have a considerably better offense then last year. Conner obviously is #1 to making this happen. When you have a RB that runs like a freight train, defenses get worn down much faster.

IN 2014 we were running Paul Chryst's offense. In 2015 we ran Jim Chaney's offense. Compared to 2014, the offensive numbers -total yardage and scoring-were down last season. The rushing yardage and TD stats from 2014-2015 are not an apples to apples comparison. We had 100 less carries last year than in 2014. No question the offense was better in 2014 than in 2015, which is to be expected in a year when you're installing a new system and coaches to replace the ones that had been in place for the previous 3 years, and of course when you lose your stud RB.

now we start yet another season with yet another different OC--that's 3 in 3 years--so it will once again be hard to do a comparison.

No doubt we are a better offense with JC at RB than we are without him no matter what the scheme, who's coaching it, etc.. All of us are hoping that James will not only be back, but be back at full strength. There is certainly no guarantee that will be the case. If anyone can, he can, but right now it's just uncertain.