Volunteer Firemen

[Zeldas Open Roof]

I don’t know about where you grew up, but the parents would scream at the refs, the coaches , sometimes other parents and players .
I’d rather cut some lawns as a teen and not deal with it .

i've been to a few hoops games here in the south hills over the years and they were kind of tame, outside of the students standing and chanting lines to insult the other student section, who would chant something back. in high school i'd go of course but again, all the noise was from students trying to get under the skin of the opposing teams or fans..

every high school hoops game i've been at, the students vastly outnumber the parents and the parents are definitely not screaming over the students.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

A lot of schools have JV players officiate the lines during the varsity volleyball game. Pretty normal practice. I've seen adults lose their minds on these girls, so yeah, it is definitely a thing.

oh yeah, i've been to many JV V'ball games and thats standard. for the most part, they do ok but if it's a bad call, i've seen the coach "over turn" the call. so if the jv player says "out" and it was clearly in, either the ref on the ladder will overturn it or if it's on the other side of the court, the opposing coach will say "in" or vice versa..

again, not really anything for a parent to get mad at. i dont know man, im not trying to argue with you guys, i just go to alot of sporting events and i dont see this venom or terrible behavior that you guys apparently do. I dont see parents berate refs who are grown adults to the point where they quit being refs and go to their car and cry.. now i see the videos on twitter so obviously it happens, some drunk parent getting into a fight with an ump at a kids baseball game, just havent seen that first hand..

weird enough, if i had to pick the worst sport the parents behave at, it would probably be girls softball games. the ones i were at, it just seems those parents act the worst.

but i've said this before, at my kid's baseball games, and when my daughter played softball, i always made it a point to sit as far away from every human being as possible. So i am/was the guy in right field, by himself.. You couldnt pay me enough to sit in bleachers with the parents. mainly because i dislike people.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

You’re saying they’re good?

I'm saying most are colossal douches.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Who the hell are you to bust on someone volunteering their time to help others. You need to stop what you are doing and think about your actions!

Stop it. A small percentage might do it for that reason. The vast majority do it because it's their club. It's done out of vanity much more often than it's done out of altruism.

Prez above seems like a very reasonable person who is/was in it in for the right reasons. I don't think the same can be said for most of them. Hey, maybe I'm wrong. Just going by what I've seen.

 

[WillyDavis33]

Stop it. A small percentage might do it for that reason. The vast majority do it because it's their club. It's done out of vanity much more often than it's done out of altruism.

You think maybe people can volunteer their time to help others AND join something that gives them an affiliation

 

[prez41]

Stop it. A small percentage might do it for that reason. The vast majority do it because it's their club. It's done out of vanity much more often than it's done out of altruism.

You’re obviously the expert 🙄

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Why ?
Its why its volunteering .

Because there is not enough of them and maybe this would encourage??

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

You’re obviously the expert 🙄

Okay, Prez. I apologize and didn't mean to offend you. I'm sure there are plenty of good ones who do it to help out.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

oh yeah, i've been to many JV V'ball games and thats standard. for the most part, they do ok but if it's a bad call, i've seen the coach "over turn" the call. so if the jv player says "out" and it was clearly in, either the ref on the ladder will overturn it or if it's on the other side of the court, the opposing coach will say "in" or vice versa..

again, not really anything for a parent to get mad at. i dont know man, im not trying to argue with you guys, i just go to alot of sporting events and i dont see this venom or terrible behavior that you guys apparently do. I dont see parents berate refs who are grown adults to the point where they quit being refs and go to their car and cry.. now i see the videos on twitter so obviously it happens, some drunk parent getting into a fight with an ump at a kids baseball game, just havent seen that first hand..

weird enough, if i had to pick the worst sport the parents behave at, it would probably be girls softball games. the ones i were at, it just seems those parents act the worst.

but i've said this before, at my kid's baseball games, and when my daughter played softball, i always made it a point to sit as far away from every human being as possible. So i am/was the guy in right field, by himself.. You couldnt pay me enough to sit in bleachers with the parents. mainly because i dislike people.

Zelda, don't let your anecdotal experiences make it to be reality overall. I mean, I have seen some people on here, spend a lunch hour in Pittsburgh and have a nice time and declare "there is no crime problem".

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Zelda, don't let your anecdotal experiences make it to be reality overall. I mean, I have seen some people on here, spend a lunch hour in Pittsburgh and have a nice time and declare "there is no crime problem".

lol, im not going there.

i just hear sooo many people complain about these awful parents screaming at refs at kids' soccer games and i remember my kids playing soccer and the refs where 13 year old kids who didnt have enough conviction or confidence to blow a whistle. and im just wondering "what the hell are you guys talking about."

same with baseball games and the ump is a 15 year old kid who rode his bike to the field to make 20 bucks.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Because there is not enough of them and maybe this would encourage??

So would paying them

How would you validate their volunteer duty ?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

do youth sports really have a hard time getting refs/umps? i see high school kids (usually around 15-16) doing my kid's baseball games all the time. youth rec soccer, you pay a kid 15 bucks a game, that's not bad at all.. zero reason any local township doesnt have plenty of kids signing up for that. again, you dont need adults to do a kid's job. by kid, i mean 14-15 year olds. it's not rocket science to do this.

ZERO Reason to ask a grown man to ref or ump a youth sports game. easy money for a kid during the summer. i live in south park and they dont have any issues at all. Football and Hockey i see could be one where you need an adult so maybe there is a shortage in those sports but baseball, soccer, basketball, no reason for an adult to do those.


my daughter's volleyball games, it's adults but she's in high school so i assume that's on wpial and not the township. .

In every sport but basketball it seems. That's why you have 12 year olds reffing games for 10 year olds in the other sports. But in basketball, its the opposite, almost an oversupply. Rec leagues have PIAA refs.

 

[Rupart33]

A lot of schools have JV players officiate the lines during the varsity volleyball game. Pretty normal practice. I've seen adults lose their minds on these girls, so yeah, it is definitely a thing.

Wpial boys volleyball has jv players ref the lines during varsity games. Some of the kids take some serious abuse during intense games.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

So would paying them

How would you validate their volunteer duty ?

That's easy. You have to attend all the mandatory training and a percentage of calls. It ain't that difficult.

 

[Upg bobcat]

This forum gets quite the share of weird posts and threads. This one ranks up there with some of the weirdest.

 

[prez41]

That's easy. You have to attend all the mandatory training and a percentage of calls. It ain't that difficult.

I never minded the volunteer aspect of it. I took a lot of pride in that to be honest. What really drove me away was the time required. I quit when I was 30 when child #3 was on the way and I was commuting one hour each way for what was at the time a new job. I didn’t mind the actual emergencies, but volunteer fire departments babysit so many bullshit situations because municipalities, utilities, etc. don’t want to pay police for traffic control, businesses don’t want to maintain automatic fire alarms, etc. Then having to spend additional hours fundraising and training and I just couldn’t keep up. I think participation would increase if VFDs weren’t overutilized since they are a free service. Limit the bullshit calls and the constant need for fundraising and use them for actual emergencies and I think there would be an increase in numbers. And the departments need to look into consolidation of resources as well.

 

[PittPharm2002]

That's easy. You have to attend all the mandatory training and a percentage of calls. It ain't that difficult.

Here’s an easier idea
Pay them

So what percent of a tax cut?
Is it flat across income levels ?
Whyonly these volunteers from a federal rate ?
What if your standard deduction is greater than itemizing ?

You’re not actually thinking much here .
You want a more complicated taxation system based on non-income time spent ? Holy shit

 

[PittPharm2002]

I never minded the volunteer aspect of it. I took a lot of pride in that to be honest. What really drove me away was the time required. I quit when I was 30 when child #3 was on the way and I was commuting one hour each way for what was at the time a new job. I didn’t mind the actual emergencies, but volunteer fire departments babysit so many bullshit situations because municipalities, utilities, etc. don’t want to pay police for traffic control, businesses don’t want to maintain automatic fire alarms, etc. Then having to spend additional hours fundraising and training and I just couldn’t keep up. I think participation would increase if VFDs weren’t overutilized since they are a free service. Limit the bullshit calls and the constant need for fundraising and use them for actual emergencies and I think there would be an increase in numbers. And the departments need to look into consolidation of resources as well.

Yep
Pay municipal employees to actually provide services .
It’s what local taxes are for .

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

my buddy is a wpial hoops coach. in hoops, he tells me an ump is getting 120-150 per game. at 6a level. 80-100 at 3a.


damn, that shocked me. Thats not bad. He just told me what you said. Huge shortage of refs.. so kudos to you..

That isn’t correct. 6A WPIAL baseball pays $85-90 a game on average per ump.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Here’s an easier idea
Pay them

So what percent of a tax cut?
Is it flat across income levels ?
Whyonly these volunteers from a federal rate ?
What if your standard deduction is greater than itemizing ?

You’re not actually thinking much here .
You want a more complicated taxation system based on non-income time spent ? Holy shit

I think, sort of going back to the OP, there is a market for these folks who are willing to volunteer to do fight fires for free so why would a local township pay someone willing to work for free. I dont get why anyone would want to do that type of dangerous work for free but there are many types of people willing to. Its a certain type of person like the OP said.

 

[prez41]

Yep
Pay municipal employees to actually provide services .
It’s what local taxes are for .

I don’t have the numbers, but I believe most VFDs operate independently of the municipalities they serve, especially in smaller townships. The VFD I belonged to was provided a donation from the two townships we served each year and our worker’s comp insurance was covered by one. We weren’t directly affiliated with the Township.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

I think, sort of going back to the OP, there is a market for these folks who are willing to volunteer to do fight fires for free so why would a local township pay someone willing to work for free. I dont get why anyone would want to do that type of dangerous work for free but there are many types of people willing to. Its a certain type of person like the OP said.

Yep. The payment is that it's your identity card. You get to have friends and be part of something. You get to operate "fun" equipment you otherwise wouldn't have access to and be important within your realm. You get to scratch the itch if you're an adrenaline junkie. In some cases, you get to keep family tradition alive.

I agree it seems like they should be paid, but I also agree that it would kind of be silly to do that as long as you're finding enough people to do it for free. If and when that changes, they'll have to pay people to do it.

 

[HailtoPitt]

PWX at Eastland Mall in North Versailles was always a doozy. I believe the main event the time I went was whomever their champion was vs Bubba from B94.

I forget what the promotion was, but I also went to one they did as a fundraiser for my ex. Another doozy, to say the least. Most of the guys looked like they just stumbled out of the local watering hole, but there was one dude who actually had some skills and was doing some pretty crazy things for there only being about 58 people in attendance. Probably not worth flipping off the top turnbuckle onto the floor if there isn't even a camera there.

Bubba was such a jackass. He had this attitude outside of the ring like he was The Rock or something. It was actually humorous the way he acted like a big star at eastland mall.

 

[pittiswhereiamfrom2]

I'm saying most are colossal douches.

I wonder how many volunteer fireman post online incessantly about nonsense. The douchiest thing of all.

 

[Mikefln]

My experience

I never minded the volunteer aspect of it. I took a lot of pride in that to be honest. What really drove me away was the time required. I quit when I was 30 when child #3 was on the way and I was commuting one hour each way for what was at the time a new job. I didn’t mind the actual emergencies, but volunteer fire departments babysit so many bullshit situations because municipalities, utilities, etc. don’t want to pay police for traffic control, businesses don’t want to maintain automatic fire alarms, etc. Then having to spend additional hours fundraising and training and I just couldn’t keep up. I think participation would increase if VFDs weren’t overutilized since they are a free service. Limit the bullshit calls and the constant need for fundraising and use them for actual emergencies and I think there would be an increase in numbers. And the departments need to look into consolidation of resources as well.

My carbon monoxide alarm went off once and I called the twp's non emergency number since we all were out of the house and doing fine. I was expecting one or 2 volunteers in maybe a marked SUV. I got 2 firetrucks, a few marked suvs, I counted the firemen but forget the number but over 15, plus an ambulance with a paramedic and EMT. All came lights and sirens.

I said to the person who seemed to be in charge, that I called the non-emergency number, as I didn't want to waste resources. He said this is too good of a training to let it pass up. I was like "cool, do your thing"

They were nice and professional, but talk about over the top response.

 

[prez41]

My experience

My carbon monoxide alarm went off once and I called the twp's non emergency number since we all were out of the house and doing fine. I was expecting one or 2 volunteers in maybe a marked SUV. I got 2 firetrucks, a few marked suvs, I counted the firemen but forget the number but over 15, plus an ambulance with a paramedic and EMT. All came lights and sirens.

I said to the person who seemed to be in charge, that I called the non-emergency number, as I didn't want to waste resources. He said this is too good of a training to let it pass up. I was like "cool, do your thing"

They were nice and professional, but talk about over the top response.

No doubt that happens. I will say that if we received a call like yours directly, we would send a guy or two with a meter. There are definitely guys/departments out there that are over the top. A lot of times, too, if a CO or fire alarm call comes in, the FD has limited information and has to treat it as an actual emergency. Sounds like that wasn’t the case with you though.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

My experience

My carbon monoxide alarm went off once and I called the twp's non emergency number since we all were out of the house and doing fine. I was expecting one or 2 volunteers in maybe a marked SUV. I got 2 firetrucks, a few marked suvs, I counted the firemen but forget the number but over 15, plus an ambulance with a paramedic and EMT. All came lights and sirens.

I said to the person who seemed to be in charge, that I called the non-emergency number, as I didn't want to waste resources. He said this is too good of a training to let it pass up. I was like "cool, do your thing"

They were nice and professional, but talk about over the top response.

"All units, all units, there is a medium-sized rock on the highway. I repeat: we have a medium-sized rock on the highway!"

 

[OH Pete]

if you need an adult to ump a youth baseball or softball game, you are going to have a shortage, it's not worth it for an adult. get a teenager to do it, problem solved. basketball, same thing..

High school level, i can see a shortage. i thought you were referring to "youth" sports, not high school games. to ump a high school baseball or softball game, that's 2 1/2 3 hours. for an adult, you have to pay at least 100-bucks per ump to get any interest. no clue what the going rate is..

Travel ball umps in the good tournaments (i.e. the one where college scouts actually show up to) pay between $75 and $100 per game. Great money because those games all have time limits in pool play, usually 1 hour and 45 minutes. They get unpaid breaks between games of about 20 to 30 minutes while the next teams warm up. So basically they are making around $40 per hour. Many work 3 to 4 games per day from Thursday to Sunday and alternate with a partner on home plate and base work. So $1200 for 4 days of work. Not a bad side hustle. I'm thinking of going to umpire school when my kids are done with sports (which will happen next year unless my younger plays in college). After 20 years now of youth sports dominating my life, I'm going to need a hobby and I appreciate the value that they brought to my kids over the years.

The downside is that you are on your feet the entire day and in uncomfortable and hot clothes. June and July games are crazy hot. The work is all on weekends. Parents are often pretty good, but you can almost always count on 1 or 2 assholes, especially the ones that still coach after their kids turn 12. The work dries up in August, although August and fall ball are starting to become very popular.

If I do it, I would probably go for HS certification and try to limit the all weekend events. Maybe do some local rec league stuff.

 

[OH Pete]

Maybe I just need to meet one who has a good sense of humor and doesn't take truck decals so seriously or walk around with a walkie-talkie at all times. I think I just have a skewed perception.

Almost every volunteer fireman I've ever met has a key ring on their belt with about 50 keys on it. I'm fairly certain that most have no idea what those keys even go to.

I have this theory that at local volunteer fireman meetings / conventions they have vendors who sell key rings and keys. Like tie dye shirts at a Grateful Dead show.

For the record, while I totally understand what the OP is saying, I'd like to go on record as totally respecting volunteer firefighters. In the small town I grew up in the firehall was the epicenter of social activity. And us kids all knew many of the firemen. The OP has it right, but one thing is that when the bell rings they meet the challenge. When I was a kid an apartment building burned down in my small town. Watching the firemen, most of them who I knew well, put that fire out was amazing. I thought they were just a bunch of pot bellied, iron city swilling rednecks. I was only half right. They were also well trained, professional and selfless for risking their lives (no hyperbole) for the community. Sure, I get it that they got a rush and satisfaction from it. And an identity. But there are a lot of pursuits that can give you that (I also grew up around a motorcycle gang - and not the kind that devote their time to poker runs and charity work) that don't provide value for society.

Thank God that these fine volunteers exist.

Having said all of that, a great friend of mine is a professional fireman/paramedic. With OT and holiday pay, he does OK. I find it odd that many cities use an all volunteer force, including my town. These should be paid positions.

 

[pittdan77]

Wpial boys volleyball has jv players ref the lines during varsity games. Some of the kids take some serious abuse during intense games.

Typically don't start seeing officials calling the line until playoffs. I guess some bigger schools can pay an adult to do it. Honestly, most of the kids that play club have a lot of experience with just about every aspect of running a game.

I told our AD that I think JV players as officials should be the norm in all sports. Told him a couple of JV kids working as back judges for Varsity football games should be just fine if a volleyball player can do it in a crowded gym against their rival school.

 

[pittdan77]

Travel ball umps in the good tournaments (i.e. the one where college scouts actually show up to) pay between $75 and $100 per game. Great money because those games all have time limits in pool play, usually 1 hour and 45 minutes. They get unpaid breaks between games of about 20 to 30 minutes while the next teams warm up. So basically they are making around $40 per hour. Many work 3 to 4 games per day from Thursday to Sunday and alternate with a partner on home plate and base work. So $1200 for 4 days of work. Not a bad side hustle. I'm thinking of going to umpire school when my kids are done with sports (which will happen next year unless my younger plays in college). After 20 years now of youth sports dominating my life, I'm going to need a hobby and I appreciate the value that they brought to my kids over the years.

The downside is that you are on your feet the entire day and in uncomfortable and hot clothes. June and July games are crazy hot. The work is all on weekends. Parents are often pretty good, but you can almost always count on 1 or 2 assholes, especially the ones that still coach after their kids turn 12. The work dries up in August, although August and fall ball are starting to become very popular.

If I do it, I would probably go for HS certification and try to limit the all weekend events. Maybe do some local rec league stuff.

I'm considering picking up the whistle for volleyball after my daughter decides to hang it up. There are plenty of tournaments after the HS season and they usually cover your housing. Might make back what I've spent in tournament fees in a few years.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Yep
Pay municipal employees to actually provide services .
It’s what local taxes are for .

Ok. Then take the 130 individual municipalities in Allegheny County and combine them to about 40. You can't "pay" 130 (some of these municipalities, have 2, 3, 4 different fire departments). That way they are properly staffed and equipped.

 

[pittdan77]

Ok. Then take the 130 individual municipalities in Allegheny County and combine them to about 40. You can't "pay" 130 (some of these municipalities, have 2, 3, 4 different fire departments). That way they are properly staffed and equipped.

Oh, so you think firefighting departments should be run better than every local police department that pays ridiculously low wages?

I'm just kidding but that's pretty much where we're at.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Ok. Then take the 130 individual municipalities in Allegheny County and combine them to about 40. You can't "pay" 130 (some of these municipalities, have 2, 3, 4 different fire departments). That way they are properly staffed and equipped.

Sounds like a their problem .
I’m not the one complaining their aren’t enough volunteers to provide services .

Capitalism works

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Sounds like a their problem .
I’m not the one complaining their aren’t enough volunteers to provide services .

Capitalism works

Yeah neither am I. You made it an issue because, well it's what you do. Softie.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

i think it's fair to say that there are way too many fire depts than the demand for it. here in south hills, someone's smoke detector goes off and you get fire trucks from baldwin, broughton, bethel, lebo, usc and castle shannon.. all arriving within 3 minutes of each other

you dont need a fire station in every little borough and township.

 

[4Mark_Marty]

lol, point taken. but does a wpial ref really "take abuse" from parents at a game? they are refing a game on a court, not exactly meeting with parents face to face living vicariously thru their kids..

I am sure they take it from coaches but who cares if a coach yells at you for a bad call. again, that's not too bad for 1 hour of work, not sure if that includes a JV game prior or not. 150 bucks to ref a hoops game? i'd do that.

it's a secondary job, almost a hobby. not a career. sit at the bar and drink the friday night away or go to the local gym, ref a game and then go to the bar 90 minutes later with 150 bucks in your

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

i think it's fair to say that there are way too many fire depts than the demand for it. here in south hills, someone's smoke detector goes off and you get fire trucks from baldwin, broughton, bethel, lebo, usc and castle shannon.. all arriving within 3 minutes of each other

you dont need a fire station in every little borough and township.

Yeah, there are so many I can think of that are so close to other ones. Like Dravosburg needs its own fire dept? It's a stone's throw away from one of the three in West Mifflin.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

i think it's fair to say that there are way too many fire depts than the demand for it. here in south hills, someone's smoke detector goes off and you get fire trucks from baldwin, broughton, bethel, lebo, usc and castle shannon.. all arriving within 3 minutes of each other

you dont need a fire station in every little borough and township.

You do need manpower. But you are right, that's alot of money to transfer firemen to a fire just because you need bodies.

 

[prez41]

i think it's fair to say that there are way too many fire depts than the demand for it. here in south hills, someone's smoke detector goes off and you get fire trucks from baldwin, broughton, bethel, lebo, usc and castle shannon.. all arriving within 3 minutes of each other

you dont need a fire station in every little borough and township.

Part of that, though, is that a smoke detector going off is dispatched as a fire until a unit is on scene and determines whether it is an actual fire or not. That’s what sucks about automatic alarms. You have to treat them as a real incident, but 99 out of 100 aren’t.

Something to keep in mind, too is that each department doesn’t have everything. We had a rescue pumper, engine, mini-pumper and tanker. Our sister department didn’t have a rescue truck, but had an air truck. So for any vehicle accident in their jurisdiction they automatically dispatched us for our rescue truck. For any structure fire they were automatically dispatched for their air truck and manpower. And while consolidation of our departments may have made sense (and we had very preliminary discussions about it), centralizing the firehouses to one location and closing the other two would have put less volunteers in close proximity to the station. Especially in more rural areas that is a challenge.