Vuckovcan's take regarding the NIT snub

[Chairman Moe]

Interesting read with equally polarizing comments by his readers. My take? I've been following Pitt basketball since I enrolled @ Pitt in 1970. During the half-century+ as a fan, I have come to realize that Pitt is certainly not a "blue blood" program, and while there have been glimpses of greatness, our achievements in this sport are minimal. Better than many, but not great

And while the "legality" of paying players to play has changed, Pitt has never been able to "buy" the best players or coach(es). We fell into Howland and Dixon, and their players exceeded beyond any generation of Pitt BB players in my fan lifetime. The group of players Pitt had during the Paul Evans years were arguably the best/most talented, but Evans couldn't coach his way out of an open locker door

Maybe, in hindsight, Pitt should've accepted the NIT bid last year, when they had the talent to win the damn thing or at the very least, go deep into the tournament to provide guys like Leggett, Lowe, Austin, and the Twins a taste of post-season/tournament play. As Vuk points out, these kids are paid to play and if given the opportunity, they should. Pitt is not, in my loyal and honest opinion, that good that they can turn down any post-season event. In basketball or football. Even if it's the "Hormel Canned Meat Bowl" game played in Laramie, WY, and certainly not the NIT regardless of how meaningful or meaningless it's become

Vukovcan: Pitt Hoops Is in No Position to Turn Down Postseason Tournaments

When Pitt AD Allen Greene came out with the statement that the Pitt men’s basketball team planned to forgo any opportunity to play in the post season, I had mixed feelings. This is the second-straight year that Pitt has declined postseason tournament play after getting snubbed last season...

pittsburghsportsnow.com

 

[HailToPitt1985]

The key takeaway for me is that these kids are being PAID TO PLAY. It's not like they should have a choice in this matter. If they get invited, they are getting paid to play, so do it. I never thought this way before. But now with players getting a lot of money, some getting millions, they better get their lazy a$$es out there and play the damned game. No excuses. Like Vuk said, Pitt just isn't good enough to turn anything down, Who the hell do we think we are?

The other item that was discouraging if true is that it's assumed that the Pitt coaching staff will probably be staying intact after this disaster of a season. I won't go into the acceptability of Jeff Capel still being the Pitt head coach. He shouldn't be, but we're stuck with him for at least another year. But the rest of his staff needs scrutinized and most fired and replaced with competent coaches. That includes his brother. The new assistants should be hired with an eye on a possible successor to Capel after next year being part of that staff. I think it's safe to say that Jeff Capel will give us similar results next year that he gave us this year and for 6 of the previous 7 seasons. In fact, the results could be considerably worse with a bunch of transfers leaving and a bunch of new faces coming in that we know nothing about. His time should be up after next year.

 

[Slick Manager of Champs]

The key takeaway for me is that these kids are being PAID TO PLAY. It's not like they should have a choice in this matter. If they get invited, they are getting paid to play, so do it. I never thought this way before. But now with players getting a lot of money, some getting millions, they better get their lazy a$$es out there and play the damned game. No excuses. Like Vuk said, Pitt just isn't good enough to turn anything down, Who the hell do we think we are?

The other item that was discouraging if true is that it's assumed that the Pitt coaching staff will probably be staying intact after this disaster of a season. I won't go into the acceptability of Jeff Capel still being the Pitt head coach. He shouldn't be, but we're stuck with him for at least another year. But the rest of his staff needs scrutinized and most fired and replaced with competent coaches. That includes his brother. The new assistants should be hired with an eye on a possible successor to Capel after next year being part of that staff. I think it's safe to say that Jeff Capel will give us similar results next year that he gave us this year and for 6 of the previous 7 seasons. In fact, the results could be considerably worse with a bunch of transfers leaving and a bunch of new faces coming in that we know nothing about. His time should be up after next year.

probably the real issue is Pitt would lose money by participating. I didn't read the article (not a fan of Vuk) so I don't know if he mentioned that or not.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

probably the real issue is Pitt would lose money by participating. I didn't read the article (not a fan of Vuk) so I don't know if he mentioned that or not.

That wasn't mentioned. But if it's a consideration, take the money out of what they're paying these kids to play and coaches to coach.

This new AD Greene sure isn't starting out well at all. He says nice words and that's about it. His statement about the NIT was lame. I get the feeling that fans will be clamoring for him to show some guts and grow a spine and fire Capel when next year ends up worse than this year, if that's the case.

Like I said in a post in another thread, nothing short of an NCAAT bid with a high seed (5 or higher) will be acceptable next year. This coach has had 8 years now to get it right and has only a play-in qualifier game in the NCAAT to show for it. If he can't meet those requirements, we need to cut him loose along with his entire deadwood staff and get someone in here who can coach.

 

[AllegeneeGenacGenac]

I will never understand why so many of our fans are obsessed with playing in a tournament against a bunch of schools they complain about us playing buy games against early in the regular season, or why anyone's opinion on post season play has turned into some sort of test of their masculinity and/or morality.

If you care about the performance of next year's team, having Capel and his staff spend time flogging this year's severely flawed team to prepare for irrelevant games is not helpful. Him not attempting to prepare the team because they are focused on assembling next year's roster (as they should be) is also not helpful. Giving a bunch of players who are talented but were decidedly unmotivated for a large portion of the season a stage to improve their NIL stock for next year is not helpful. No player that is considering coming here to play now or in the future is going to care at all whether this team played in the NIT or not this year. So what is the point of having the team play?

Also, the university decided what the team was going to do with regard to the post season based on the statement from the AD, not the players. Not that you can dock their pay for electing not to play in a meaningless game anyway.

And for the record, the NCAA covers the costs of the schools participating in the NIT. I suspect that's not the case for the other tournaments, but I don't know for sure and don't care enough about them to look, because they are completely meaningless.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Counterpoint -
There is no springboard effect to playing in or even winning the NIT .
Our best players likely don’t want to take the risk of playing - just like im
Sure Bub and Blake voiced last year .

 

[Chairman Moe]

I will never understand why so many of our fans are obsessed with playing in a tournament against a bunch of schools they complain about us playing buy games against early in the regular season, or why anyone's opinion on post season play has turned into some sort of test of their masculinity and/or morality.

If you care about the performance of next year's team, having Capel and his staff spend time flogging this year's severely flawed team to prepare for irrelevant games is not helpful. Him not attempting to prepare the team because they are focused on assembling next year's roster (as they should be) is also not helpful. Giving a bunch of players who are talented but were decidedly unmotivated for a large portion of the season a stage to improve their NIL stock for next year is not helpful. No player that is considering coming here to play now or in the future is going to care at all whether this team played in the NIT or not this year. So what is the point of having the team play?

Also, the university decided what the team was going to do with regard to the post season based on the statement from the AD, not the players. Not that you can dock their pay for electing not to play in a meaningless game anyway.

And for the record, the NCAA covers the costs of the schools participating in the NIT. I suspect that's not the case for the other tournaments, but I don't know for sure and don't care enough about them to look, because they are completely meaningless.

I didn't suggest playing in this year's NIT ... we should have played in LAST YEAR's tournament. I agree that the team wearing Pitt jerseys this year was not worthy of post-season play. Last year's however, even if Bub and Blake didn't play, would have had meaning for Jaland, Ish, Zack, and the Twins

 

[Chairman Moe]

Counterpoint -
There is no springboard effect to playing in or even winning the NIT .
Our best players likely don’t want to take the risk of playing - just like im
Sure Bub and Blake voiced last year .

see my reply to Alleganee

 

[AllegeneeGenacGenac]

I didn't suggest playing in this year's NIT ... we should have played in LAST YEAR's tournament. I agree that the team wearing Pitt jerseys this year was not worthy of post-season play. Last year's however, even if Bub and Blake didn't play, would have had meaning for Jaland, Ish, Zack, and the Twins

I think everything I said about this year applies to every other year as long as the players are here as free agents every season. If we ever get to the point where players are signing multi-year deals with a school or there are some other limits on player movement, there are likely scenarios where it would make sense to get players more experience.

You did say, "Pitt is not, in my loyal and honest opinion, that good that they can turn down any post-season event. In basketball or football," which I took to mean you think they should always play in whatever event they can. If you don't feel that way, fair enough. If you do, that's also fine by me but I would be interested to know why that's the case.

 

[PittPharm2002]

see my reply to Alleganee

But as noted -
Why would Bub and Blake risk their pro careers to play in a tournament that nobody remembers who won ?
It’s the players who are saying no.
Not Pitt.

 

[ratking17]

Lost me at vuk.....

That said I am kind of glad they didn't accept this year because it felt like a chore to watch them.

 

[Chairman Moe]

I think everything I said about this year applies to every other year as long as the players are here as free agents every season. If we ever get to the point where players are signing multi-year deals with a school or there are some other limits on player movement, there are likely scenarios where it would make sense to get players more experience.

You did say, "Pitt is not, in my loyal and honest opinion, that good that they can turn down any post-season event. In basketball or football," which I took to mean you think they should always play in whatever event they can. If you don't feel that way, fair enough. If you do, that's also fine by me but I would be interested to know why that's the case.

I think the comment that said, "who do they think they are?", caught my attention. I know I may sound like I am flip-flopping between choosing to play in postseason events or not play in postseason events. But come on? Who is Pitt to think that they are so good that they can excuse themselves from playing any "meaningless" postseason games? The truth of the matter is we are not that good, and should prove ourselves by playing in these meaningless games and trying to win them. My new position!

And to @PittPharm: yes, I know neither Bub nor Blake would've played in last year's NIT. But the five+ players who returned would have

 

[AllegeneeGenacGenac]

I think the comment that said, "who do they think they are?", caught my attention. I know I may sound like I am flip-flopping between choosing to play in postseason events or not play in postseason events. But come on? Who is Pitt to think that they are so good that they can excuse themselves from playing any "meaningless" postseason games? The truth of the matter is we are not that good, and should prove ourselves by playing in these meaningless games and trying to win them. My new position!

And to @PittPharm: yes, I know neither Bub nor Blake would've played in last year's NIT. But the five+ players who returned would have

What does playing in the NIT or CBI or whatever prove to anyone? Is beating the likes of Utah Valley or even a name school like Georgia Tech for the NIT crown going to win over a booster or recruit? I think the answer to that question is no.

Like I said before, I don't understand the moral argument at all. It has nothing to do with being "too good" for a tournament. It's about using resources (including time) wisely, and our current coaching staff doesn't seem to have cycles to waste.

 

[Saboteur II]

Interesting read with equally polarizing comments by his readers. My take? I've been following Pitt basketball since I enrolled @ Pitt in 1970. During the half-century+ as a fan, I have come to realize that Pitt is certainly not a "blue blood" program, and while there have been glimpses of greatness, our achievements in this sport are minimal. Better than many, but not great

And while the "legality" of paying players to play has changed, Pitt has never been able to "buy" the best players or coach(es). We fell into Howland and Dixon, and their players exceeded beyond any generation of Pitt BB players in my fan lifetime. The group of players Pitt had during the Paul Evans years were arguably the best/most talented, but Evans couldn't coach his way out of an open locker door

Maybe, in hindsight, Pitt should've accepted the NIT bid last year, when they had the talent to win the damn thing or at the very least, go deep into the tournament to provide guys like Leggett, Lowe, Austin, and the Twins a taste of post-season/tournament play. As Vuk points out, these kids are paid to play and if given the opportunity, they should. Pitt is not, in my loyal and honest opinion, that good that they can turn down any post-season event. In basketball or football. Even if it's the "Hormel Canned Meat Bowl" game played in Laramie, WY, and certainly not the NIT regardless of how meaningful or meaningless it's become

Vukovcan: Pitt Hoops Is in No Position to Turn Down Postseason Tournaments

When Pitt AD Allen Greene came out with the statement that the Pitt men’s basketball team planned to forgo any opportunity to play in the post season, I had mixed feelings. This is the second-straight year that Pitt has declined postseason tournament play after getting snubbed last season...

pittsburghsportsnow.com

I X’ed my reply. If the players said No, or enough of them said No, then we might not have been able to field a team.
I expect players and coaches are looking to next year. I would.
IMO it was a smart move to skip.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

I X’ed my reply. If the players said No, or enough of them said No, then we might not have been able to field a team.
I expect players and coaches are looking to next year. I would.
IMO it was a smart move to skip.

I doubt many of the players are expecting to be here next year. I'd be surprised if they were. We could be looking at 6 or 8 new faces after the transfers and eligibility expirations.

 

[tps48]

Interesting read with equally polarizing comments by his readers. My take? I've been following Pitt basketball since I enrolled @ Pitt in 1970. During the half-century+ as a fan, I have come to realize that Pitt is certainly not a "blue blood" program, and while there have been glimpses of greatness, our achievements in this sport are minimal. Better than many, but not great

And while the "legality" of paying players to play has changed, Pitt has never been able to "buy" the best players or coach(es). We fell into Howland and Dixon, and their players exceeded beyond any generation of Pitt BB players in my fan lifetime. The group of players Pitt had during the Paul Evans years were arguably the best/most talented, but Evans couldn't coach his way out of an open locker door

Maybe, in hindsight, Pitt should've accepted the NIT bid last year, when they had the talent to win the damn thing or at the very least, go deep into the tournament to provide guys like Leggett, Lowe, Austin, and the Twins a taste of post-season/tournament play. As Vuk points out, these kids are paid to play and if given the opportunity, they should. Pitt is not, in my loyal and honest opinion, that good that they can turn down any post-season event. In basketball or football. Even if it's the "Hormel Canned Meat Bowl" game played in Laramie, WY, and certainly not the NIT regardless of how meaningful or meaningless it's become

Vukovcan: Pitt Hoops Is in No Position to Turn Down Postseason Tournaments

When Pitt AD Allen Greene came out with the statement that the Pitt men’s basketball team planned to forgo any opportunity to play in the post season, I had mixed feelings. This is the second-straight year that Pitt has declined postseason tournament play after getting snubbed last season...

pittsburghsportsnow.com

Vuk is right on this one. When do employees decide when to work? Those who voted not to play should be encouraged to leave. From the group returning, only Cummings matters.

 

[Franb]

Vuk is right on this one. When do employees decide when to work? Those who voted not to play should be encouraged to leave. From the group returning, only Cummings matters.

There is no mention anywhere that I have seen, that the players voted on this or had any say in the decision.

 

[Protes]

College basketball is now a business. The only way to get schools and players to want to play in a meaningless tournament is to make it worthwhile for them. $$$

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

There is no mention anywhere that I have seen, that the players voted on this or had any say in the decision.

They did last year. Said a lot about the team, which wasn't much of a team this year.

"We made the decision to decline an NIT invitation as a team and with the support of our Athletic Department leadership. It was a difficult choice, but ultimately what is best for our student-athletes."

Panthers Decline Invitation to NIT - Pitt Panthers #H2P

Pitt concludes the season with a 22-11 record, including a 12-8 mark in ACC play.

pittsburghpanthers.com

 

[Las Panteras]

I read Vuks article. The comment that stood out for me is, much of this team wont be here next year so why put the time and effort in?

A poster above states the NCAA covers NIT costs. Is that confirmed?

If not....i can see this becoming a trend in this sport. Schools are trying to find ways to generate needed revenue. Saving on expenses is one way to go.

 

[pittchagg]

I read Vuks article. The comment that stood out for me is, much of this team wont be here next year so why put the time and effort in?

A poster above states the NCAA covers NIT costs. Is that confirmed?

If not....i can see this becoming a trend in this sport. Schools are trying to find ways to generate needed revenue. Saving on expenses is one way to go.

It’s already a trend. There were close to 20 teams that declined NIT invitations last year, and I think that number is similar this year, too.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

A poster above states the NCAA covers NIT costs. Is that confirmed?

A quick google search would show you that it is.

 

[9782978]

I’m not certain about this, and correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the seniors’ (I use that to cover 5th and 6th year students) scholarship contracts end with the last regular season game (or perhaps conference tournament game). Thus, seniors in any sport can opt out of postseason play. The act of “opting-out” gained steam during COVID and the term itself is softer than “quitting” or “walking out on your team”. The only remedy would be to include language in a player’s employment contract (NIL) that postseason play is required. These are all assumptions, but either bonuses or modifying NIL contracts may be the only “fix”.

 

[108K11]

I’m not certain about this, and correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the seniors’ (I use that to cover 5th and 6th year students) scholarship contracts end with the last regular season game (or perhaps conference tournament game). Thus, seniors in any sport can opt out of postseason play. The act of “opting-out” gained steam during COVID and the term itself is softer than “quitting” or “walking out on your team”. The only remedy would be to include language in a player’s employment contract (NIL) that postseason play is required. These are all assumptions, but either bonuses or modifying NIL contracts may be the only “fix”.

Vuk has lost some of his credibility with respect to Pitt Basketball. The value, if any, in playing in the NIT is to test the freshman in a tournament setting. Taking that approach and not trying to win the thing is also open to debate, but I agree with the statement that the NIT is not a springboard to next season as it may have been in the past. The NIT has been the Not Important Tournament for decades so other than the intrinsic value of competition, it is simply programming for ESPN.

I don't see the value in whining about coaches, especially what they are paid. There are may things to talk about, I wish there was an open forum with the Pitt coaches in which they could explain any number of topics:
a) when to turn to zone
b) hedging vs switching
c) substituting (overuse of certain players)
d) pressing, fast breaks, tempo, double teaming

 

[ratking17]

Vuk has lost some of his credibility with respect to Pitt Basketball. The value, if any, in playing in the NIT is to test the freshman in a tournament setting. Taking that approach and not trying to win the thing is also open to debate, but I agree with the statement that the NIT is not a springboard to next season as it may have been in the past. The NIT has been the Not Important Tournament for decades so other than the intrinsic value of competition, it is simply programming for ESPN.

I don't see the value in whining about coaches, especially what they are paid. There are may things to talk about, I wish there was an open forum with the Pitt coaches in which they could explain any number of topics:
a) when to turn to zone
b) hedging vs switching
c) substituting (overuse of certain players)
d) pressing, fast breaks, tempo, double teaming

Clown never had credibility

 

[Chairman Moe]

Clown never had credibility

Who do you think covers Pitt sports the most objectively?