Why did Brown play so much tonight

[gary2]

Watching replay in last two minutes.

Bates backs him down and short hook over him. Funderburk carves out space and gets an and one against him. Was he one of the ones that didnt run back hard after the X circus shot?

Brown misses tip in on offensive board.

 

[Bethlehemjohn]

You can point out those few issues, but he played better than most of our guys tonight. 6 points, 7 rebounds and a few nice defensive plays including a steal. Let's put it this way, we didn't lose because of him. He had the highest plus/minus than any player from either team tonight.

 

[gary2]

You can point out those few issues, but he played better than most of our guys tonight. 6 points, 7 rebounds and a few nice defensive plays including a steal. Let's put it this way, we didn't lose because of him. He had the highest plus/minus than any player from either team tonight.

The seven boards were impressive, AKC had only one? Brown did get called for a moving pick.

We had some recent discussions on the board about the value of plus/minus. I discount it.

Personal preference. I would rather have seen Coulibaly play his regular minutes. I think he does the little things a lot better.

Brown’s man scored 5 points in the last 2 minutes. That is not insignificant.

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

Cause Capel's highest ranked recruit couldn't make it half a season I guess.
Doubt Coulibaly would have done much better down the stretch.

 

[DT_PITT]

The seven boards were impressive, AKC had only one? Brown did get called for a moving pick.

We had some recent discussions on the board about the value of plus/minus. I discount it.

Personal preference. I would rather have seen Coulibaly play his regular minutes. I think he does the little things a lot better.

Brown’s man scored 5 points in the last 2 minutes. That is not insignificant.

In the context of things, it's hard for me to understand why you are singling out Terrell.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

On the long list of issues last night, Terrell Brown was not one. Why did he play? Because NC State had a bunch of big guys who can play and Brown was actually playing better than AKC.

 

[gary2]

You can point out those few issues, but he played better than most of our guys tonight. 6 points, 7 rebounds and a few nice defensive plays including a steal. Let's put it this way, we didn't lose because of him. He had the highest plus/minus than any player from either team tonight.

In an earlier post you felt we would have probably won had X played more minutes. I agree with that.

Aside from that and I don’t profess to know the answer to this but:

State had 2 bigs on the floor with 2 freshmen guards a lot of the time. Were their things were could have done schematically or through substitution that could have created significant match up problems for them?

 

[wbrpanther]

Watching replay in last two minutes.

Bates backs him down and short hook over him. Funderburk carves out space and gets an and one against him. Was he one of the ones that didnt run back hard after the X circus shot?

Brown misses tip in on offensive board.

AKC turned the ball over 4 times in the first 12 minutes and couldn’t do anything defensively. At least with Brown you got a shot at a block once in a while. In case you’ve been living in a cave Pitt’s lack of an inside presence on both sides of the ball is a huge and glaring problem.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Because Coulibaly is bad

 

[Chescat]

The seven boards were impressive, AKC had only one? Brown did get called for a moving pick.

We had some recent discussions on the board about the value of plus/minus. I discount it.

Personal preference. I would rather have seen Coulibaly play his regular minutes. I think he does the little things a lot better.

Brown’s man scored 5 points in the last 2 minutes. That is not insignificant.

Actually Gary, IMO most of us have Coulibaly
as a "personal preference." Unfortunately
last night was not a night for that "preference."
I like Coulibaly, and think he's improved a
lot since he's been here. The point is, he was
being eaten alive....out of position, one rebound.
He started and played 15 minutes, compared
to 25 min for Brown. Brown had 7 rebounds,
4 of those rebounds were on the offensive
boards, that alone was important in a game
like last night's. He also had 3 blocks.

When you consider Brown usually comes in and
does nothing, zero, and gets pulled within a
minute o two....well, last night for once coach
left him out there on the floor. Why? He was for
for once, giving us a better performance than
Coulibaly. So of course he played more.
This from a poster (me) who usually
can't stand to watch Brown out there.

 

[gary2]

Actually Gary, IMO most of us have Coulibaly
as a "personal preference." Unfortunately
last night was not a night for that "preference."
I like Coulibaly, and think he's improved a
lot since he's been here. The point is, he was
being eaten alive....out of position, one rebound.
He started and played 15 minutes, compared
to 25 min for Brown. Brown had 7 rebounds,
4 of those rebounds were on the offensive
boards, that alone was important in a game
like last night's. He also had 3 blocks.

When you consider Brown usually comes in and
does nothing, zero, and gets pulled within a
minute or two....well, last night he for once was
a positive force on the floor.
This from a poster (me) who usually
can't stand to watch Brown out there.

I get it.

I was just watching the replay last night and States last 5 defendedl points were scored on Brown.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

Just like there’s a good X and a bad X there’s a good TB and then there’s the bad TB .

The real shame is when he plays well he’s pretty effective .

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

To my very amateur eye Coulibaly looks very stiff. There’s little to no fluidity in his movement. He could get better and be a decent backup but I just don’t think he’s a long term answer either. I hope to be wrong.

 

[gary2]

To my very amateur eye Coulibaly looks very stiff. There’s little to no fluidity in his movement. He could get better and be a decent backup but I just don’t think he’s a long term answer either. I hope to be wrong.

Brown is worse,. Brown could play the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Brown is worse,. Brown could play the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz.

I am not defending Brown trust me. I’ve been hoping he’d leave every year. I never got sucked in from a random good game here and there. I was simply saying that I don’t believe Coulibaly is an answer to anything. Now or 2 years from now. Except maybe some backup minutes.

 

[Chescat]

This discussion could go on forever.
We all know Brown is awful, gives us
basically nothing on the floor, and
gets yanked almost as soon as he
enters the game.
We also know Coulibaly has improved,
but is not the long range "answer" at
Pitt.

Last night....it's not rocket science, the
coach plays who is contributing the
most between these two. It's usually
Coulibaly, but last night surprisingly it
was Brown.

 

[gary2]

This discussion could go on forever.
We all know Brown is awful, gives us
basically nothing on the floor, and
gets yanked almost as soon as he
enters the game.
We also know Coulibaly has improved,
but is not the long range "answer" at
Pitt.

Last night....it's not rocket science, the
coach plays who is contributing the
most between these two. It's usually
Coulibaly, but last night surprisingly it
was Brown.

Last post on the topic for me.

6 points, 7 rebounds and 3 blocks looks great.

it is my impression that stat line ideceives his true performance. He did not play as well as that looks.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

We just have real matchup issues with big teams. Especially 6'9-7'0" guys who actually want to play the post and bang instead of being a wing (Hi Matthew Hurt looking at you). We saw that with UNC especially. NC State had that. That necessitated more Brown cause of his height and athleticism gave us a chance. So...who's up next? Hmmm......Florida State. Yahtzee!!!!!

 

[gary2]

In an earlier post you felt we would have probably won had X played more minutes. I agree with that.

Aside from that and I don’t profess to know the answer to this but:

State had 2 bigs on the floor with 2 freshmen guards a lot of the time. Were their things were could have done schematically or through substitution that could have created significant match up problems for them?

Could Pitt have played AKC and Brown together?. Played Justin at guard?

Brown, AKC, Toney, Justin and X?

 

[Chescat]

We played zone a lot yesterday.
I'm sure that was one way Capel
thought we might counter
their bigs. However if you watched
how poorly we played that zone it
made no difference. If there's anyone
who can't see it, just go back and
re watch how NC ST carved up
up our zone and how we tried to
attack theirs. They were also so
much quicker than we were, especially
during the first half.

Brown and AKC on the floor together?
No coach in their right mind would
even consider such a move for obvious
reasons. In a man D those two would
be exposed and quickly in foul trouble.
In a zone, they can't even get it right
when only one of them is on the floor.
Two of em at once....Ouch!

 

[gary2]

We played zone a lot yesterday.
I'm sure that was one way Capel
thought we might counter
their bigs. However if you watched
how poorly we played that zone it
made no difference. If there's anyone
who can't see it, just go back and
re watch how NC ST carved up
up our zone and how we tried to
attack theirs. They were also so
much quicker than we were, especially
during the first half.

Brown and AKC on the floor together?
No coach in their right mind would
even consider such a move for obvious
reasons. In a man D those two would
be exposed and quickly in foul trouble.
In a zone, they can't even get it right
when only one of them is on the floor.
Two of em at once....Ouch!

My overall question is do we ever game plan? Do we do anything against certain teams to indicate we are trying to attack their short comings or do we only play our way?

Are there examples of actions we take to counter gameplanned attacks against our weaknesses?

More generally, do we do any in game or specific pregame coaching?

 

[gary2]

We played zone a lot yesterday.
I'm sure that was one way Capel
thought we might counter
their bigs. However if you watched
how poorly we played that zone it
made no difference. If there's anyone
who can't see it, just go back and
re watch how NC ST carved up
up our zone and how we tried to
attack theirs. They were also so
much quicker than we were, especially
during the first half.

Brown and AKC on the floor together?
No coach in their right mind would
even consider such a move for obvious
reasons. In a man D those two would
be exposed and quickly in foul trouble.
In a zone, they can't even get it right
when only one of them is on the floor.
Two of em at once....Ouch!

NC State easily carving up our zone is nothing new. I attended one of those games not all that long ago.

This year they did not have the three point shooters they had that year.

 

[gary2]

We played zone a lot yesterday.
I'm sure that was one way Capel
thought we might counter
their bigs. However if you watched
how poorly we played that zone it
made no difference. If there's anyone
who can't see it, just go back and
re watch how NC ST carved up
up our zone and how we tried to
attack theirs. They were also so
much quicker than we were, especially
during the first half.

Brown and AKC on the floor together?
No coach in their right mind would
even consider such a move for obvious
reasons. In a man D those two would
be exposed and quickly in foul trouble.
In a zone, they can't even get it right
when only one of them is on the floor.
Two of em at once....Ouch!

Since the Gray/Kendall era has Pitt even tried playing bigger?

 

[DT_PITT]

Since the Gray/Kendall era has Pitt even tried playing bigger?

We played Hamilton/Brown together at spots. Before that, Adams and Zanna played together all the time -- that's 7-0 and 6-9. Two years later, we played Mike Young at the four with Maia/ANO at the five.

 

[gary2]

We played Hamilton/Brown together at spots. Before that, Adams and Zanna played together all the time -- that's 7-0 and 6-9. Two years later, we played Mike Young at the four with Maia/ANO at the five.

Yeah, but that was very infrequent. One year of Adams. Hamilton and Brown did not play much together. ANO hardly played and MAia was how tall really?

Gray/Kendall played a ton of games side by side.

I guess my gripe is (and has been) we never seem to even attempt to adjust to individual opponents talent or gameplan.

Teams that lack depth. teams that are short on ball handlers. teams that prefer to play small (or big).

Goes back to me liking coaches that at least appear to be actually coaching.

 

[Chescat]

NC State easily carving up our zone is nothing new. I attended one of those games not all that long ago.

This year they did not have the three point shooters they had that year.

Actually any team "carving up our
zone is nothing new"

I wasn't talking about three
pointers. They were carving it
up getting layups and dunks.
When a team gets its zone beaten
by giving up pts. inside
(as they did to us), you better
try something else. Unfortunately
the something else, specifically
our Man D was also beaten badly.

Besides those two points, watch
the first half especially, and
see how they were quicker, much
much quicker. That was true on
both ends of the floor no matter
what we were playing. It had nothing
to do with bigs. Playing two bigs
last night at the same time would
have made it much worse, especially
given who are two bigs are

Other posters mentioned Kendall and
Gray, Adams and Zana. Those guys
could actually play. They were not
liabilities. Capel has no such luxury
with these two.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

To my very amateur eye Coulibaly looks very stiff. There’s little to no fluidity in his movement. He could get better and be a decent backup but I just don’t think he’s a long term answer either. I hope to be wrong.

Akc is a good rotational big
That’s fine
His ceiling is tyrell Biggs

 

[Chescat]

My overall question is do we ever game plan? Do we do anything against certain teams to indicate we are trying to attack their short comings or do we only play our way?

Are there examples of actions we take to counter gameplanned attacks against our weaknesses?

More generally, do we do any in game or specific pregame coaching?

Yes, of course we gameplan. First
of all the other team knows what
their own "shortcomings" are, and
they "gameplan" against what they
pretty much know we're going to do.
That kind of makes it like a chess
match in a way.
The reality is sometimes no matter
how well you gameplan, so much of
it comes down to execution.

You asked about "pregame" and
"in game coaching" and planning.
Every coach does both. Some coaches
obviously better than others. Coach
K is considered a wizzard, but it's also
a case of talent. Look at them this year.
Did he suddenly stop his "gameplanning?"
Of course not, they're younger, and not
as talented. Those one and dones,
something he never did but is now doing
is catching up with them.
You can gameplan your ass off, but talent,
experience, intangibles like toughness,
hustle,and chemistry also play a part,
a big part obviously.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Other coaches gameplan too
In case folks aren’t realizing - the book is out on Pitt

double Justin outside of the paint .
On ball pressure -trap on x at the top of the key .
Attack the baseline - on Justin’s side - so you have 2 on 1s at the rim since he doesn’t defend

that doesn’t say much for our staff to not have answers for those 3 things

 

[gary2]

Yes, of course we gameplan. First
of all the other team knows what
their own "shortcomings" are, and
they "gameplan" against what they
pretty much know we're going to do.
That kind of makes it like a chess
match in a way.
The reality is sometimes no matter
how well you gameplan, so much of
it comes down to execution.

You asked about "pregame" and
"in game coaching" and planning.
Every coach does both. Some coaches
obviously better than others. Coach
K is considered a wizzard, but it's also
a case of talent. Look at them this year.
Did he suddenly stop his "gameplanning?"
Of course not, they're younger, and not
as talented. Those one and dones,
something he never did but is now doing
is catching up with them.
You can gameplan your ass off, but talent,
experience, intangibles like toughness,
hustle,and chemistry also play a part
obviously.

Looking at NC State. They are playing 2 bigs together. They habe limited guard depth and even less guard experience.

I think most coaches playing them would press the hell out of them. Try to make it a high turnover game. Try for early defensive outcomes before they can work it in to their bigs. Try to wear their guards down, maybe even get them into foul trouble.

what do you think?

 

[gary2]

Other coaches gameplan too
In case folks aren’t realizing - the book is out on Pitt

double Justin outside of the paint .
On ball pressure -trap on x at the top of the key .
Attack the baseline - on Justin’s side - so you have 2 on 1s at the rim since he doesn’t defend

that doesn’t say much for our staff to not have answers for those 3 things

I would agree

 

[Chescat]

Looking at NC State. They are playing 2 bigs together. They habe limited guard depth and even less guard experience.

I think most coaches playing them would press the hell out of them. Try to make it a high turnover game. Try for early defensive outcomes before they can work it in to their bigs. Try to wear their guards down, maybe even get them into foul trouble.

what do you think?

On paper, what you're suggesting
makes sense. I can assure you,
without even being there, NC ST
like all college teams practice
against that over and over. When
you're coaching you might have
your team press, but you'll know
very, very soon whether it's going
to work or not.
Just look at Pitt...we're a very hard
team to press because of X. He's
going to beat a man to man press
easily by dribbling around or
through it. That's talent! When
they double him, he easily gets it
to the open man and then gets it
back again. They execute against
the zone press pretty well also.
That's talent AND coaching. We're
much weaker against the press
when he leaves the floor.

At this level most teams can handle
a press. They go over it and over it
in practice. They execute.
With all that said, talent once again
comes into play...both sides of the
floor.

 

[gary2]

On paper, what you're suggesting
makes sense. I can assure you,
without even being there, NC ST
like all college teams practice
against that over and over. When
you're coaching you might have
your team press, but you'll know
very, very soon whether it's going
to work or not.
Just look at Pitt...we're a very hard
team to press because of X. He's
going to beat a man to man press
easily by dribbling around or
through it. That's talent! When
they double him, he easily gets it
to the open man and then gets it
back again. They execute against
the zone press pretty well also.
That's talent AND coaching. We're
much weaker against the press
when he leaves the floor.

At this level most teams can handle
a press. They go over it and over it
in practice. They execute.
With all that said, talent once again
comes into play...both sides of the
floor.

Well talking talent, NC ST can practice all they want. They will still have few and inexperience guards. they will still have 2 bigs not used to handling the ball away from the basket on the floor at the same time.

This is not a team you play or even drop back into a zone against. This is a team you exert maximum pressure against. No?

 

[Chescat]

Other coaches gameplan too
In case folks aren’t realizing - the book is out on Pitt

double Justin outside of the paint .
On ball pressure -trap on x at the top of the key .
Attack the baseline - on Justin’s side - so you have 2 on 1s at the rim since he doesn’t defend

that doesn’t say much for our staff to not have answers for those 3 things

I agree with "those 3 things" you
mentioned. I'd also agree with other
non mentioned "things" that are
also possibilities.

The last part, isn't as simple as "our
staff not having answers." They might
have the "answers" but for any number
of reasons, they can't get them to work.
It could be poor teaching, a talent
differential, or the other team recognizing
and preparing for those supposed "answers."
When players execute your gameplan, you as
a coach look like a genius. When they don't,
well......it's pretty simple, you don't have
answers. TALENT, TALENT, and TALENT.

Personally right now, I feel the coaches may
have lost them to some degree. The lack of
discipline is evident and that can affect
everything. We'll see if Capel get them with
that "edge" again.
AND AGAIN.......TALENT.

 

[gary2]

Yes, of course we gameplan. First
of all the other team knows what
their own "shortcomings" are, and
they "gameplan" against what they
pretty much know we're going to do.
That kind of makes it like a chess
match in a way.
The reality is sometimes no matter
how well you gameplan, so much of
it comes down to execution.

You asked about "pregame" and
"in game coaching" and planning.
Every coach does both. Some coaches
obviously better than others. Coach
K is considered a wizzard, but it's also
a case of talent. Look at them this year.
Did he suddenly stop his "gameplanning?"
Of course not, they're younger, and not
as talented. Those one and dones,
something he never did but is now doing
is catching up with them.
You can gameplan your ass off, but talent,
experience, intangibles like toughness,
hustle,and chemistry also play a part,
a big part obviously.

No offense, but Coach K has plenty of enough talent to be doing better.

Seems his heart isn’t into it anymore. It had come easy for too long.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I agree with "those 3 things" you
mentioned. I'd also agree with other
non mentioned "things" that are
also possibilities.

The last part, isn't as simple as "our
staff not having answers." They might
have the "answers" but for any number
of reasons, they can't get them to work.
It could be poor teaching, a talent
differential, or the other team recognizing
and preparing for those supposed "answers."
When players execute your gameplan, you as
a coach look like a genius. When they don't,
well......it's pretty simple, you don't have
answers. TALENT, TALENT, and TALENT.

Personally right now, I feel the coaches may
have lost then to some degree. The lack of
discipline is evident and that can affect
everything. We'll see if Capel get them with
that "edge" again.
AND AGAIN.......TALENT.

I hear you-
But our continual lack of what looks like anything resembling a coherent offense - alarms me.

on defense -every zone breaks down because even with only occupying a space - Justin is a very weak link .

I mean- he’s be better off at the top of the zone - to limit his damage

 

[Chescat]

Well talking talent, NC ST can practice all they want. They will still have few and inexperience guards. they will still have 2 bigs not used to handling the ball away from the basket on the floor at the same time.

This is not a team you play or even drop back into a zone against. This is a team you exert maximum pressure against. No?

Again on paper, yes I'd agree with
what you're suggesting. You questioned
their few and inexperienced guards.
Those guards handled our guards pretty
damn well. They basically rendered, Sibande,
Horton and Okudale useless.

Watching the
game yesterday, I was amazed at their
guards who previously were subs. Their
top guard was out, and their 3 pt. shooter
was out. Within the first five minutes I
didn't see a backcourt (guards) advantage
for us.

They totally out-quicked us in the backcourt
and inside. They easily handled our Man D,
and forced us into a zone. they handled that
also. The zone was used also because of foul
trouble.

"Maximum pressure'??.....did you not see the
quickness differential? They ate up our out front
pressure. I didn't expect that. It's sad to say but
their backup guards were often better than our
starters. They made Sibande, Horton and Okodale
non factors. X , for all the blame he got actually
played better than it looked in limited minutes.

You know what a lot of this tells me?....We're
still not all that good talent wise. Their bigs
are on a much, much higher level than us.
Their guards off the bench are better than ours.
X was the most talented guard on the floor, but
we all saw what he got for us yesterday.

 

[Chescat]

I hear you-
But our continual lack of what looks like anything resembling a coherent offense - alarms me.

on defense -every zone breaks down because even with only occupying a space - Justin is a very weak link .

I mean- he’s be better off at the top of the zone - to limit his damage

I agree about Champ, both Man and Zone.

I also feel that our zone is a disaster.
One of the key plays yesterday late,
was a diagonal pass over and through
the zone to the opposite baseline.
Toney did not drop back as he should
have. Brown was then caught inside
on a 2 on 1 which resulted in a wide
open dunk. Brown looked like the culprit.
He actually wasn't. There's no way that
pass should EVER be made against an
effective zone. So we're saying basically
similar things here.

 

[Chescat]

No offense, but Coach K has plenty of enough talent to be doing better.

Seems his heart isn’t into it anymore. It had come easy for too long.

Yup, that seems to be the general
consensus. That's all a result of his
comments on not having the season
due to Covid.
Let' s face it though, we really don't
know how much "his heart is into it any
more." So easy to speculate.

 

[gary2]

Again on paper, yes I'd agree with
what you're suggesting. You questioned
their few and inexperienced guards.
Those guards handled our guards pretty
damn well. They basically rendered, Sibande,
Horton and Okudale useless.

Watching the
game yesterday, I was amazed at their
guards who previously were subs. Their
top guard was out, and their 3 pt. shooter
was out. Within the first five minutes I
didn't see a backcourt (guards) advantage
for us.

They totally out-quicked us in the backcourt
and inside. They easily handled our Man D,
and forced us into a zone. they handled that
also. The zone was used also because of foul
trouble.

"Maximum pressure'??.....did you not see the
quickness differential? They ate up our out front
pressure. I didn't expect that. It's sad to say but
their backup guards were often better than our
starters. They made Sibande, Horton and Okodale
non factors. X , for all the blame he got actually
played better than it looked in limited minutes.

You know what a lot of this tells me?....We're
still not all that good talent wise. Their bigs
are on a much, much higher level than us.
Their guards off the bench are better than ours.
X was the most talented guard on the floor, but
we all saw what he got for us yesterday.

i did not see aggressive pressure by us. You really felt we went after them.

we never go after anyone until we have to. Desperation has led to some late game success.

I would like to see some of that at the start,especially against NC State andWake with Whitt. Speed these inexperienced guys up.

We have experienced guards in X,Nike and Horton. This kind of pressure suits Femi perfectly.

We need to make the game a game of guards and forwards. With the loss of Hugley we are at a serious disadvantage most bigs against ours.