pittdan77
Athletic Director
I've heard a lot of arguments against small, fast guys but the NHL has its share. The Pens looked slow and tired in the playoffs last year. I'm guessing this is the best shot at making a run.
OT: Penguins
- Thread starter recruitsreadtheseboards
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I’m sorry, but I disagree with almost all of this.
The Penguins are definitely a better team than they were before the trades if for no other reason than they now have an NHL caliber fourth line. They’ve been playing for the past six weeks without a fourth line and their numbers have suffered as a result of it.
This is a team that needs to play at a high rate of speed to be successful and to do that you can’t kill your top two lines. Now, instead of the fourth line averaging six and seven minutes per game, it’s going to average 12 and 13 minutes per game. That is a big difference!
When Pittsburgh won the back-to-back caps in ‘16 and ‘17, they mostly did it mostly by wearing teams down with their speed and relentless pressure in all three zones. This feels very much like that same approach to me.
Wayne Simmonds is still a useful NHL player in the right system. He’s a really good net front guy and he’s tough as nails. However, we already have Hornqvist to fill that role and he is a better player than Simmonds.
Of all the guys we could’ve had and didn’t land, Wayne Simmonds is very low on my list.
Honestly, I feel the same way about Ilya Kovalchuk. He was great in Montreal over the past few weeks. He was equally horrible in LA in the months prior.
Maybe Washington will find a place to play him but he scores most of his goals on the power play from the left circle – which is exactly where Ovechkin plays. I know they were worried about their power play in Washington, so maybe they have a plan for Kovalchuk that I’m not seeing? I’m just not sure where they’ll put him or whose minutes he’ll be usurping?
He has been a great player over the years and I always bet on talent. However, I honestly think Washington could’ve done better. What if Kovalchuk isn’t on one of their top two lines? What do they do then? You can’t put him in your bottom six. So who do you take them who do you remove for him? Vrana? Wilson? I just don’t get it, TBH.
I do like Namestikov to Colorado for a fourth round pick. I thought that was a good deal for the Avalanche. But I would much rather have Patrick Marleau than Tyler Ennis. Marleau is a future Hall of Famer who is bigger, stronger, faster and more talented than Ennis.
I liked what little we saw from the oft-injured Kahun, but really, he and Sheary are fairly similar players. The difference is Sheary actually scores and stays healthy.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not exactly doing cartwheels over re-acquiring Conor Sheary. However, I would not be remotely be surprised to see him end up replacing Simon on the first line with Crosby and Zucker. He will definitely have a place in the lineup.
Sheary definitely has his blemishes as a player, but the kid can clearly play with Crosby — as he proved in his first stint here. I’m fine with bringing him back and I will also be fine if they give him a shot on the first line to see what he still has in the tank.
I like Simon better than most others seem to like him. I think he’s a good hockey player who just struggles to finish. However, he does a lot of other things very well. That said, the second I saw Sheary‘s name on the ticker my first thought was, that’s probably pretty bad news for Simon.
I can tell you this....this team just got even much better today than it did yesterday. After the trade deadline, the Pens managed to add a #1 pairing Dman and a #2 pairing Dman without giving away anything. Brian Dumoulin and John Marino have started to practice with the team.
That's great news!!!
I love what you said about Simon. You like him as a player, but he struggles to finish. That is a problem with a pass first Center like Crosby. Simon, in my opinion, has to finish better or he should not be in the top 6.
Agreed, which makes you wonder why they got away from that strategy in the first place!
One other thing, I am hearing good things about Evan Rodrigues. He did score 30 points last year as a 4th liner on a bad Buffalo team. Not unlike another throw in on a Penguin deadline day over a decade ago. Pascal Dupuis.
30 points? As a 4th liner? Not bad! If he turns out to be half the player Duper was, it’d only solidify the job GMJR has done here.
Well, that is a great question and one that unfortunately, I can’t answer.
Honestly, I’ve been screaming about them surrendering speed for three years now. It seems like nearly all of the guys who have left in recent years have been above average skaters. They’ve been replaced with average or below average skaters who are more physical.
My personal theory has always been that Sullivan and Rutherford had some philosophical differences on how to run the team and after two early playoff exits, Sullivan has won out.
Last year, against the Islanders, it was absolutely striking how much faster they were than we were.
I think Rutherford felt they needed to get tougher and was willing to sacrifice speed to get tougher. Naturally, he wanted to protect his stars, who really take a hell of a beating because of the way the team is constructed.
That’s perfectly understandable.
However, Sullivan has always maintained that they don’t need protection. He believes that the best deterrent to nonsense is a potent power-play and he wants to try to wear teams down through skating.
Personally, I am on Team Sullivan on that issue but a lot of really bright hockey people disagree with me on that. Also, in fairness, last year‘s Stanley Cup finalists were both big, heavy teams. Also, Washington, the 2018 Cup champions, plays a pretty heavy game. It’s a perfectly reasonable viewpoint. It’s just not one that I happen to share -- at least not for this particular team.
The Penguins need to make sure their power play is impactful. If their power play is strong, teams will be more disciplined with them. If their power play struggles, teams will take more liberties with them.
That leads me to my biggest worry about this team and that is their very poor face off prowess. I thought they could’ve addressed that better at the trade deadline than they did. Also, they don’t have a right-handed face off guy on the whole team. That’s definitely a glaring weakness. That’s like a baseball team not having a left-handed pitcher on its staff.
Honestly, that is a big deal!
Again, one thing that has separated Pittsburgh from other teams has been the fact that their second and third defensive pairings have been interchangeable over the past few years.
For most teams, they have a top two or a top four and then they use scrubs in their third pairing. Pittsburgh plays its top pairing a lot - like most teams. However, when they were winning their Cups, their second and third pairings played almost an equal amount of minutes.
That keeps everyone fresh and it makes them difficult to attack - especially when the forwards are as defensively committed as they have mostly been and the goaltenders have been playing as well as they have for most of the year.
Maybe Marino getting a few weeks off to rest his legs in the middle of the season won’t turn out to be such a bad thing after all?
I do worry about Dumoulin because ankle tendon injuries are a really big deal for a defenseman. However, they did not make a trade for a defenseman, and I think that’s notable.
My biggest worry is probably Schultz, who has been pretty poor for most of the season. He’s having a terrible year at the worst possible time. If he can get his act together down the stretch, they are going to be really tough to beat.
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Agreed. I think that was his reasoning when he first moved away from this style of play- trading Sundqvist for Reaves. Almost seems like that snowballed into the other moves he made between them and last year, and they’re finally getting back to playing fast.
I think you’re also right about the fit. We have two of the most talented players on the earth, might as well compliment them with guys that are fast can finish. Lots of missed opportunities in the early 2010s because of how those teams were constructed (also injuries and the Flower slump).
It was several things IMO. The NHL is a copycat league - prices for speed skyrocketed after the 16 Cup, then came down after a couple "heavy" teams won the last two. Plus Bill Guerin likes the heavy boys, and he had a say after Botterill left
Yeah, that’s all very reasonable. There was definitely a period over the past few years that everyone tried to get fast.
That’s probably why teams like Washington, Boston and St. Louis went heavy. It all makes sense. However, now, that everyone is going heavy again, I’m fine with zigging and going all in on fast.
Honestly, I think we could’ve gotten faster. I really think we could’ve gotten Athanasiou and I think we should have gone after him. I think he would really fit our system exceptionally well. I also think he’s going to do wonderfully in Edmonton.
That’s probably why teams like Washington, Boston and St. Louis went heavy. It all makes sense. However, now, that everyone is going heavy again, I’m fine with zigging and going all in on fast.
Honestly, I think we could’ve gotten faster. I really think we could’ve gotten Athanasiou and I think we should have gone after him. I think he would really fit our system exceptionally well. I also think he’s going to do wonderfully in Edmonton.
I know he was playing for Detroit, but that -45 is pretty hard to ignore. Brian Burke has a great line about him yesterday when he said “he’s dangerous for both teams.”
LOL! That’s a great line! Brian Burke is always good for a few of those.
As for Athanasiou, he is just a year removed from a 30 goal season and I think he would fit in very well here in the right role.
Detroit is such a mess that it’s making even really good players like Dylan Larkin look bad. There are several players on that roster that I would love to take off their hands.
Edmonton is putting him with McDavid to start with, which should be interesting. Those two guys are probably THE two fastest scooters in the world.
As for Athanasiou, he is just a year removed from a 30 goal season and I think he would fit in very well here in the right role.
Detroit is such a mess that it’s making even really good players like Dylan Larkin look bad. There are several players on that roster that I would love to take off their hands.
Edmonton is putting him with McDavid to start with, which should be interesting. Those two guys are probably THE two fastest scooters in the world.
Does nobody here get Sully? He simply does not tolerate guys without a commitment to team. -45 is not a team player, and that is exactly why he's in Edmonton now intstead of a team like Pittsburgh. Would have been another Kahun scenario IMO, the staff would have forced him out within a year.
Is that what happened with Kahun? I didn’t know his situation well enough to know that was a problem with him.
You may have noticed Kahun never got time with Sid - Sully had it out for him. Even benched him after a 1+1 night.
Chicago fans came on my board after the trade last year and told us THEIR staff had issues with him. Kahun is not committed to doing the things winning players do - and we have a list of talented players like that under Sully that starts with Sprong and ends with Kessel.
Well with Washington specifically, you have the ultimate "heavy" player in Tom Wilson who is a throwback to the Rick Tocchet, Kevin Stevens, Cam Neely type power forwards who are big, rough, but have skill and can skate. Ovi himself is a "heavy" player at 240lbs and not afraid to throw it around. Lars Eller, TJ Oshie even Backstrom and Kuznetsov aren't small guys. Their defense is not overly big, Brendan Dillion makes them bigger, but "heavy" serves them well. Same with St Louis, who aren't overly huge up front, but on the blue line led by Colton Parayko are huge.
I still think Ryan Reaves was absolutely misused and mishandled by Sully. He could have had a role and as say a 4th liner, he outperformed any 4th liner we had over the last 2 1/2 years. That was stubborness on his part.
Tom Wilson has a long way to go skillwise to be in a sentence with Stevens, Tocchet or Neely.
Wilson is a lot closer to guys like Probert or McSorley who were goons with an element of skill if you played them with more skilled players. Obviously, he is not that level of goon either.
Wilson is a lot closer to guys like Probert or McSorley who were goons with an element of skill if you played them with more skilled players. Obviously, he is not that level of goon either.
There may very well be something to this, but it could also just be as simple as the Pens really wanted Sheary and Rodrigues and Buffalo wanted an NHL asset. Kahun could have simply been valued by Buffalo more than any shortcomings he could have had in Pittsburgh.
His goon / skill balance is probably closer to a Matt Cooke or a Matthew Barnaby.
Now that you mention that, I do. Makes sense. Didn’t know that he had a history of this. Our system is proven to win championships, might as well get people that want to follow it.
That’s too bad for him, he seems to have some talent.
Also, something else that I was thinking about that maybe you guys can chime in on:
The Marleau trade makes sense with the rumblings we heard regarding the internal problems leading up to the deadline. Obviously Marleau the player is worth the deal, but we also heard a lot about the type of person he is and the presence he has in the locker room.
Perhaps he was also brought in to serve as someone who would set an example about following the system and buying in? Just a thought considering you didn’t really hear about these problems when guys like Guerin and Cullen were in the locker room.
The Marleau trade makes sense with the rumblings we heard regarding the internal problems leading up to the deadline. Obviously Marleau the player is worth the deal, but we also heard a lot about the type of person he is and the presence he has in the locker room.
Perhaps he was also brought in to serve as someone who would set an example about following the system and buying in? Just a thought considering you didn’t really hear about these problems when guys like Guerin and Cullen were in the locker room.
We mos def did hear those things in both Guerin & Cullen's last season in Pittsburgh. But yes I agree on your Marleau thoughts.
Kahun was recovered from injury, and a healthy scratch last weekend because the Pens thought they were moving him.
Analytics are a good tool, as long as you take them with a serious grain of salt. They remove the biases and prejudices and tell you historically how a player has been doing, but they are far from perfect.
Current best practices are to look back at film, and catch games live, with an eye informed by those analytics. They are not the be all - end all, but they do give you a less biased way of in-depth player evaluation. I try to keep this in mind when evaluating players.
The Pens utilize analytics more than maybe any other team out there. JR brought his team with him when hired and only added to it with the hiring of Sam Ventura and others.
Personally - I had assumed Botterill had been key to the B2B Cups - and the Pens then focus on "Try-Hard" players. Lately I am taking a harder look at JR's "Geek Room" and wondering... They must have locked these guys in the cellar when they traded for all those "heavy" & "gritty" players for most of 2 years? But these trades this TDL have that late 15,16, & early 17 Pens Analytics Department feel to them. That is why all the big name analytics people are praising them, and why we should give it a chance to see how it works out before jumping off bridges over the trade.
On an emotional level - I prefer Kahun over Connor Sheary - who I am not much of a fan of. But he's getting 2nd line grades from some of the top analytics sites. And a strong case can be made his poor performance that last season here was heavily influenced by his teammates, who struggled with that B2B Cup hangover. In fact - that was Crosby's worst season in many ways. We finally found out how much success it took to sate the Sidbot, as he was visibly not trying, and a perimeter player.
I did not like this trade, but once I took a hard look, I am all for it now.
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Another thought on Conor Sheary. Sullivan coached him at WBS, and then the Pens. Sully was very hard on him - scratched him numerous times, and talked in the media about needing 110% effort from the kid or he wouldn't play. And he responded - led the team in effort many nights, and even had that big season.
Coach must have been so proud of him, and proud of himself for pulling that out of Sheary. JR has learned how to keep Sully happy, finally. That may have also played a roll in this trade, as the staff really wanted him at the deadline. Sully is way into the try-hard players, and likely has a soft spot for that lil' Hobbit.
Coach must have been so proud of him, and proud of himself for pulling that out of Sheary. JR has learned how to keep Sully happy, finally. That may have also played a roll in this trade, as the staff really wanted him at the deadline. Sully is way into the try-hard players, and likely has a soft spot for that lil' Hobbit.
No. I am sorry. He has 20 goals right now. In this day and age, that is pretty good. He is definitely skilled and not a Probert or McSorley. He has gotten better every year. AND...I didn't say he was a Tocchet or Neely as far as skill, but "type", meaning big guys who have skill and can score and are absolutely feared. You read a little more into it. But trust me, I would take him, you would take him, every GM would take Wilson. He was a 1st rd pick too, he was not some beer league Carl Racki.
Those guys were more "rats" along the line of a Brad Marchand, though not quite as talented. Wilson is truly feared and does damage.
This bothers me though. Sid, Geno and Letang are in their 30's. Christ they have won 3 Cups, been to 4 finals, 5 Conference finals. Rust, Dumo, Schultz, Murray have won 2 cups. Why should there be a leadership void??
It's funny, I am not an over the top analytics guy. But you know what team was said to be behind in "analytics"?? The Pirates. So if the Pens are leaders and the Pirates trail.....kind of makes an indication there is something to them, eh?
I don’t disagree, and I thought the same thing when writing that. Maybe I’m overthinking it and he was just brought in to be a upgrade over who we previously had. Maybe there’s just always a role for that “old guy” in the locker room, like a Matt Cullen?
Really feel you there Recruits - as I am a Moneyball guy. The marriage of advanced analytics & tech into a package you can train your players to utilize THEMSELVES is revolution sweeping through the sport.
It's the biggest reason I came back to the Bucs when former Pens VP Travis Williams got hired to run the Pirates, and then hired Cherrington, who just spent a couple years evaluating and applying the new advanced training methods for pitchers in the Jays org.
In this new world of MLB analytics & tech, developing the player's minds, and giving them the tools to do the work mostly away from the field is just huge.
Oh I think there is. And having a character guy like that resonate in the room that he has played 20 years in the NHL and never won a cup. That can always help. Plus he still can play.
Yeah, the comments from Garrit Cole, especially Tyler Glasnow and Charlie Morton for what they were taught with the Pirates and what to throw versus the teams they played for after, well you see the difference. Every player improved dramatically.
It's scarry to think what JR would pay for a Prime Wilson....
Thankfully the Caps will hold onto him till the wheels fall off.
None of our Core are firey leaders.
It's the nature of the sport as defined by the Old Guard Canadians that run the current NHL. Requires such an incredible commitment from those championship players. Very very few can just keep that up year after year. One of the reasons head coaches are so dispossable too - eventually players stop hearing the message if it's from the same guy.
Effort and teamwork above talent is how I describe the NHL.
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I agree with all this RE: Tom Wilson. The guy is a rare breed. He is a tough guy with the skill to skate and contribute on a line with Ovechkin and Kuznetsov. The difference between him and "tough guys" who skated with Lemieux or Gretzky is that Wilson isn't necessarily a protector for Ovi. Ovechkin can handle himself well physically and while I'm sure players don't take shots at Ovi due to the presence of Wilson, I'm not sure Ovi really needs the protection. The bottom line is Wilson is there because he can play hockey.
Wilson is nothing like Tocchet/Neely, Probert/Domi or Barnaby/Marchand. He is one of the rare breed players to come along in the NHL in many years who really fits into a category all by himself.
OK, I am going to go puke now because I also can't stand the guy...
That's the Wilson thing. You just hate the guy even more because he's so uniquely effective.
I think he is a talented player, but category all by himself is kind of overstating it. He isn't a goon, or a star. He's a skilled but dirty player. More skilled than Cooke, but same kind of dirty edge. Hartnell is probably a better comp as a guy that can score but mixes it up also.
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