OT: Pens
- Thread starter mike 301
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That's not the only time. Acquiring Jack Johnson when it was obvious Sullivan had no use for him. There have been others. But yeah on these very same forums I have posed the question if the GM and coach confer on players or type of players that they need??
True, but Colorado found a way to use him and get a cup. Maybe Sullivan is part of the problem. When you can only coach one way, you're not a great coach. I'm guessing Badger Bob could figure out how to use Reaves and Jack Johnson. Sully was too worried about finding ice time for Dominic Simon.
A dismissive answer without substance. Muscle protects your elite players. It matters. Deryk Engelland did wonders for the core's health. Just ask Colton Orr And a few others who abused our elite talent. Aaron Asham destroyed several irritants that took liberties with our talent.
Your answer, sir, is the silly one.
I agree. That's why goons are and always have been so prevalent in the NHL.
Wait, what? Hmmm. You don't say.
One other thing.....and I believe this is on Sully.
Let's also remember Jay Caulfield didn't really provide Mario as much protection as 66 skating on a line with Kevin Stevens and Rick Tocchet, two guys as bad as anyone in the toughness department, and 50 goal scorers.
No. But let's also admit, since the Pens are no longer the roadrunner zipping past the Coyote, they are easy to play against. They need some physicality, especially in the net area on both ends of the ice. And guys who can and do that, usually are "tough" that they can provide some response when called for.
Let's also remember Jay Caulfield didn't really provide Mario as much protection as 66 skating on a line with Kevin Stevens and Rick Tocchet, two guys as bad as anyone in the toughness department, and 50 goal scorers.
One other thing.....and I believe this is on Sully.
Daniel Sprong scored 21 goals this year (in 66 games) and was a +13.
Jared McCann scored 40 goals.
Brandon Tanev scored 13 goals and +21 as a bottom 6.
Oscar Sundquist scored 11goals as a 4th liner and has won a cup as a regular bottom 6 Center.
Sam friggin Lafferty scored 12 goals this year. How many bottom 6 wingers scored that much with the Pens.
And we see how productive Kapanen is on another roster roster than the Penguins.
There has to be some correlation to Sullivan and his lineups/decisions why guys are "meh" here and productive players elsewhere. If I am FSG, this resonated with me as much as anything else.
Daniel Sprong scored 21 goals this year (in 66 games) and was a +13.
Jared McCann scored 40 goals.
Brandon Tanev scored 13 goals and +21 as a bottom 6.
Oscar Sundquist scored 11goals as a 4th liner and has won a cup as a regular bottom 6 Center.
Sam friggin Lafferty scored 12 goals this year. How many bottom 6 wingers scored that much with the Pens.
And we see how productive Kapanen is on another roster roster than the Penguins.
There has to be some correlation to Sullivan and his lineups/decisions why guys are "meh" here and productive players elsewhere. If I am FSG, this resonated with me as much as anything else.
So anyone who hasn't won a cup is worthless. Okay, so we need to trade away 90percent of the current roster.
The whole thing is rotten.
Sully coaches to a team he doesn't have.
Hockey Coaches don't need to last this long.
GM failures are normal but not this many.
This never gets brought up because he's great. But I've wondered how much unnecessary control Crosby has had on this teams lineup????
My guess is way too much.
Watching the Redwings years ago and Blackhawks ....I thought the obvious move was to sell malkin and Letang high.... and rebuild young and fast around Crosby. With some jam too.
I thought that was the only way to maintain greatness.
Now it's most likely too late and they're screwed
After 2018, that was the time to do it. It is almost wish the Lemieux group sold after the 2017 Cup.
I would have traded Crosby and Letang and kept Malkin.
Malkin lugs the puck, Crosby does not. Malkin has shown he can play with the wingers Crosby rejects, wonder how he could do with first picks? Crosby also gets his pick of position on the power play, wonder if it would be more effective if Malkin had first choice?
I think Malkin might do a better job weighing in on personnel decisions as well. (Might prefer a fiery persona)
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I couldn't disagree more just off leadership and intangibles and childeshness of Malkin...
I freaking love Malkin btw
Malkin has shown more ability to elevate his game at times and take a game over.
Who most often brings us back when we are down? Puts the team on his back? That is leadership.
Crosby is more the model of consistency And effort.
I'm not really disagreeing there.
But honestly no gm in a million years is moving Crosby who takes a discount.
Crosby left extra room for a gm to really get a sustainable cup dynasty.
But I also feel he and Sully also gathered too much power but it's understandable how that happened
The problem with trading any guys that are still playing at a high level is you almost always lose. If you trade any of them at that point you can’t miss. The team that gets the best player wins frequently and that’s usually whoever gets the Crosbys and Malkins.
Everyone thought the pens did ok when they traded Jagr. And they got fleeced. And yea I know Jagr shoved them into a corner. But trading high level star/franchise type players brings a lot of risk.
You're not wrong but still having Crosby is difference there. I thought the risk rewards were worth it at the time.
Things changed they got old. The problems now I wouldn't want to solve.
I'd be scared of this job lol
Not at all. But I don't recall an Asham or Engelland type on the 16 or 17 Cup teams, so the value you place on those two - and Reaves if we get back to Gary misplaced value - isn't what you present.
People lose their head with these things. Crosby is still a top 10-15 NHL player. He is on an extremely friendly contract. He is the second most important Penguin ever and sells tickets. They are not trading him unless he wants to go. Makes no sense for the team or the business and your point that getting value for him is almost impossible is 100% correct.
People that say that they should have traded Crosby at any point remind me of our discussion on these boards a few years ago when someone battled through like 100 posts to say that in a crucial position at the end of a hockey game, the Penguins should sit Crosby and play Blueger. Just no real connection with reality.
I don't think you ever trade Sid over Malkin. I am sorry. As much as I love both. It is like saying trade Lemieux and keep Jagr.
Trading Crosby is fn nuts
As has been said he's still an elite player
And the fanbase and media would absolutely tear the Pens and FSG apart for doing it
As has been said he's still an elite player
And the fanbase and media would absolutely tear the Pens and FSG apart for doing it
I am as avid of hockey fan as anyone. Especially then. I could tell you the top prospects of every team. And I never, ever, never, ever thought "the Pens did OK" in the return for Jagr. Never for an instant. In fact, as much as I think Craig Patrick is one of the 5 most important Penguins of all time, I thought he was lazy with that trade.
No. I can see trading Sid. That is burning it all down. But you won't get back a top pick, because those who seek him are contenders. But what you do get, is the bottom of the standings and hopefully a top pick for a couple of years.
Jagr did not do them any favors and they really needed to dump his contract. They had issues making payroll back then, which has been forgotten as the NHL adopted a salary cap and the Penguins have went through a really long contender run where they have seemingly become very profitable.
I am not saying that Patrick did not do as well as he could; I am saying, he had his hands tied significantly. Same thing when they had to dump Kovalev.
It is really hard to win trades when dealing from weakness. If everyone knows you need to dump a guy due to the business being a problem, you just are not going to get the return. To some extent, some of the Pirate GMs of yesteryear had to deal with the same thing.
When Lemieux sold the team/was in the process, we had a long thread here talking about the sale. A lot of people said he should keep the team because how much money does a guy need? They forgot that he had a ton on the table that he almost lost multiple times, a lot had to come together for them to even get to the point where they were able to draft Crosby and Malkin, then they were fortunate those guys did not turn out to be Alexandre Daigle and Patrik Stefan. Then, who knows how much money he really was able to take out of the team throughout the years besides bringing Burkle in. Things were really tenuous for the Penguins from like 1970 to 2007.
To bring this back to Patrick, I just do not think it was easy for him with those late 90s/early 2000s trades. But you would have to think he could have done better than he did for either Jagr or Kovalev.
Like Fleury, Malkin, Crosby and Staal?
Something like that might work.
Well that’s the point -
Good physical players who also have talent (say anyone from Trouba to Tanev) are always good to have
You need some grit
But as I said - goons don’t protect stars and never have .
Anyone who thinks sid and Geno wont receive a finished check in the playoffs because of fear of reeves or a similar tough guy who ain’t talented - is on the bench - is an exercise it crazy
At the same time, Dave Semenko and Marty McSorley kept guys off Wayne Gretzky for like 20 years. The Penguins never fully have committed to the concept in quite the same way as some other teams.
Joey Kocur and Bob Probert did the same for Steve Yzerman, though he played a more gritty style than Gretzky or Lemieux, like Crosby does.
I can remember listening to sports radio the day after the trade and I don't think there was one person, host or caller, who thought that was a good trade. Everyone knew that the Penguins got fleeced from the moment the trade was announced.
Now it turned out to be even worse than I think most people suspected it would. But pretty much everyone knew it was bad right from minute one.
This is a bad take. When the Pens traded Jagr, I’m pretty sure everyone was like, this trade sucks. Kris Beechand a bunch of bums? What?
I don't know, I think Ross Lupaschuk was really highly thought of at the time.
By his mom.
Apparently I was wrong. I meant ok because of circumstances - I think the Rangers were the only other team interested, and I know Beech had the dreaded p(otential) word. There were a lot of names tossed around of who he was being compared to. But I’m way outnumbered so I don’t recall it correctly.
I can remember actually calling in a local radio show after the Kovalev trade exasperated and saying "Ricky Lidner! Really???"
You are missing the problem with the Reaves situation. The GM paid a steep price to acquire him and Sullivan had no intention to use him.
He was then dealt away for peanuts.
The problem there is why waste the effort and the talent to acquire a guy your coach has no intention to utilize??
That is a dysfunctional organization.
Most organizations would fire a coach that resistant to change and defiant.
That is what "should" have happened.
The fact that did not happen speaks to the unhealthy influence referenced earlier in this thread. (Ownership, head coach and star player)
It continues today.
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Star players dictate their coach in the NHL and clearly Crosby wants Sullivan, or he would have been long gone. It really isn’t worth debating (beyond lamenting). I generally had a positive opinion of his theoretical coaching, then after gradually reading these recent week’s posts I realized he likely indeed should have gone along with Hextall… but, coming full circle, clearly Crosby wants him there. So, unless the new GM does an amazing job replacing the dead wood in the bottom lines and finding a legit #1 goaltender, we are likely to see more of the same results of the past few seasons.
