The main problem is 5v5 scoring! It is unfair to expect Murray to keep winning us games when we only score 2 goals.
OT: The mess that is the Penguins
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Do you think he’ll ever be “right” again? I personally don’t, which to me is sad.
I do. He didn't have a good offseason recovering from neck surgery. I think if not this year, that he will be back to normal next season. I am biased though, because he is my favorite Penguin. It has been very tough to watch him this year. He is making a major mistake per game it seems.
I like it, but think Sheahan is fine as a bottom
6 center
It is reasonable , sorry.
His numbers are below average.
He needs to produce just like everybody else.
Unlike previously, the team now trust him and isn’t seling out to protect him like the last 2 playoffs.
4th line maybe, but he doesn't kill penalties or play well in the dirty areas. I haven't seen him hit anyone yet this year either. He is soft, a bad version of Brandon Sutter. I prefer Rowney.
I just think the team in front of him is letting him down with low output and sub par defense, not the other way around. We will agree to disagree.
I totally agree with this ..... but the problem is that if we solve the 5v5 problem and Murray plays the same as he has been playing so far this season, we won't go very far ...... Murray has not played as well this season as last and his advanced goalie stats confirm that .... in addition, Murray himself recently said that he is not playing as well this season (he said "slightly above average") ..... the advanced stats show that Murray is actually not playing as well as the average NHL goalie at present ...... Jarry's stats are better then Murray's so far.... again, Jarry's stats with the same defense in front of him are better than Murray's so far.
Murray's save % on low danger, medium danger, and high danger shots are all worse then last year and his GAA compared to his expected GAA determined by the difficulty of the shots he has faced is a negative, last year it was a significant positive.. Last year his stats were mostly top 5-10 in the league, this year he is in the 20-25 range for the most part.
As I have already said in this thread, Murray is not the main problem, he can play better, and I think and expect he will and he needs to ....... it is going to be more difficult to solve the 5v5 and other problems which are more pressing.
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I definitely agree that popular sentiment does not and should not drive trades.
As for the suggestions, Calgary cannot decide if Bennett is a center or a winger? He seems to be substandard at both. Why would we want that? Also, they’re not trading away Brodie. Good teams compile defenseman, they don’t give them away.
As for Toronto, I’m sure Babcock would do a jig if you offered him a true No. 1 D for Tyler Bozak and another player. That probably puts Toronto over-the-top as far as cup favorites goes. They are not going to part with Matthews, Marner or Nylander, so who is it going to be? Again, forget Morgan Rielly or Zack Hyman. JVR? Maybe they can coax Joffrey Lupul off the permanent injury list?
It is going to end up being someone like Nazim Kadry or maybe even Josh Leivo —who is borderline NHL player. That is not even close to being worth it.
As far as Montreal goes, again, Letang for Pacioretty is a huge win for the Habs. In fact, that’s such a lopsided trade issue in their favor that it might even save Bergevin‘s job.
Galchenyuk is an older version of Bennett — a guy without a position. Also, he has well chronicled “personnel problems.” He could be had for Ian Cole. Hell, he could probably be had for Frankie Corado. Galchenyuk is also not even a young player anymore. He’s like two or three years younger than Letang.
I’m just doing this to illustrate what a terrible idea and it would be to trade this guy. We take the thinnest area of the team – defense – and we we’re going to make ourselves better by making that area significantly thinner? That seems like a good idea to people?
Just think that through for a second and let me know.
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I’m just throwing names out there. There was also the thought that Kessel would cost the Penguins a ton of prospects, but he was able to get him for next to nothing AND get them to eat salary.
He’s going to get a lot back for Letang and he’s also not willing to waste a cup run with Malkin and Crosby in hopes that Letang finds his head and legs next year. We’ve got a very good/creative gm that makes great trades when he realizes that it’s not 1987 anymore and “grit and grind” players are not needed. Keep players like Reaves, Winnik, Klinkhammer, Lapierre in the west. Packaging Letang and a young player like Sheary, Rust or getting someone to eat the Havelin contract could get this team a jumpstart for the next 3 months before the grind begins.
No, I appreciate you throwing names out there. I wasn’t trying to be a jerk. I’m just trying to point out how incredibly difficult it would be to get a fair return for that player.
I just think he is criminally underrated by a lot of people and every single time the Penguins are in a rut, his is the first name thrown out there as one of the primary reasons why. Before him, it was often Fleury. I didn’t agree with those evaluations either.
As I said earlier, I think the odds of him finding his game and regaining his previous form are astronomically higher than the odds of us trading him and improving our team as a result of that trade.
Again, if I felt like we were deep along the blue line I might have a different view. However, I think that’s the problem. I think we need to get batter back there to drive possession and to help score more five-on-five goals.
We definitely need a third line center and we definitely need another defenseman. However, if we trade away No. 58, then we will probably need TWO more defensemen.
Do you think we’re likely to get two quality defensemen at the trade deadline?
I think the play is very clearly to trade Hagelin if you can and maybe Sheary or Rust too. That frees up a fair amount of money go out and make a deal for a legitimate third line center.
However, that would be painful because it would take away a lot of our team speed and this is a team that is built on speed.
I would not trade any of our defensemen, including Cole. We are just way, way too thin back there.
Some things I'd like to see ......
- We need to get a 3rd line center who is a good two way player, one that can score, pass/assist, and play defense ..... we don't have one on the roster now and would likely have to trade for one..... the difference in Bonino and Cullen (who were good 2 way centers) vs Sheahan and Rowney is pretty large.
- Depending on who you give up for a good 3rd line center will likely determine who you might want to give up and get in a 2nd trade to fill holes..... the extent of Schultz's injury and when he is expected back at 100% may also affect trades.
- Bring up Sprong and maybe another C/F from WBS to try and strengthen overall our 4 lines (like we did with some of the young guys the last couple years) ..... Reaves may need to be scratched as we need to role 4 lines.
- Get the forward lines set ..... it's OK to switch lines between games or even sometimes within games but to be changing offensive lines almost every period to me can be a negative ...... get the players who play the best together and let them play.
- Hope that Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang, and Murray play up to their potential.
- Ramp up the overall speed and intensity of play.
- By the way, I'm not trading Letang unless I get some big return ..... BIG, BIG RETURN ..... we are a bit thin on defense, I'm not sure when Schultz is coming back and whether he will be 100% and I think Letang will improve his play.
- We need to get a 3rd line center who is a good two way player, one that can score, pass/assist, and play defense ..... we don't have one on the roster now and would likely have to trade for one..... the difference in Bonino and Cullen (who were good 2 way centers) vs Sheahan and Rowney is pretty large.
- Depending on who you give up for a good 3rd line center will likely determine who you might want to give up and get in a 2nd trade to fill holes..... the extent of Schultz's injury and when he is expected back at 100% may also affect trades.
- Bring up Sprong and maybe another C/F from WBS to try and strengthen overall our 4 lines (like we did with some of the young guys the last couple years) ..... Reaves may need to be scratched as we need to role 4 lines.
- Get the forward lines set ..... it's OK to switch lines between games or even sometimes within games but to be changing offensive lines almost every period to me can be a negative ...... get the players who play the best together and let them play.
- Hope that Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang, and Murray play up to their potential.
- Ramp up the overall speed and intensity of play.
- By the way, I'm not trading Letang unless I get some big return ..... BIG, BIG RETURN ..... we are a bit thin on defense, I'm not sure when Schultz is coming back and whether he will be 100% and I think Letang will improve his play.
I think years of trading away young talent have depleted us a bit. I would ride out this year, and hope to ride Murray, Crosby and Malkin in the playoffs If, like you say, we can get a great return for someone, they so be it, and trade away. I agree with you though, that I dont see us making that killer move this year.
See, I think that might be the best long-term play here. It’s not one or two guys playing poorly, dragging down the rest of the team. The entire team has looked slow and tired all season long. Also, they don’t just look physically tired, they look emotionally drained as well.
I genuinely think the best move here might be for us to stay conservative and rest our legs for a run at it again next year. That doesn’t mean you don’t make a deal here or there. However, I would not trade Crosby, Malkin or Letang — or Murray for that matter. I think that would be crazy. I think of those guys as the core of the team and I also think that’s the best core in the NHL.
Sometimes it’s just not your year and rather than losing your mind and trading away core pieces, sometimes you just have to know when to hold ‘em, and know when to fold ‘em.
I genuinely think the best move here might be for us to stay conservative and rest our legs for a run at it again next year. That doesn’t mean you don’t make a deal here or there. However, I would not trade Crosby, Malkin or Letang — or Murray for that matter. I think that would be crazy. I think of those guys as the core of the team and I also think that’s the best core in the NHL.
Sometimes it’s just not your year and rather than losing your mind and trading away core pieces, sometimes you just have to know when to hold ‘em, and know when to fold ‘em.
You are right he has been disappointing this season, but he is the only player that we currently have who fits the role needed to balance the lineup. I would just like to see him get a shot to prove himself. He was so dominant in camp this year.
Instead of talking about hypothetical trades that will never happen, I'd rather search for a possible realistic solution with the pieces at hand. The Pens don't have many assests to play with trade-wise.
I wouldn't give up on this year yet but I agree with not trading your core players unless you are getting core players in return ...... I don't think we need to trade core players for a good 3rd line center and maybe a couple other pieces, plus bring up a couple players from WBS all of whom have fresher legs ...... also, we have to be able to role 4 lines ..... the 4th line is playing so little now meaning we are basically playing 3 lines which doesn't help players with tired legs on those 3 lines ...... I think we may have to scratch Reaves and make up a 4th line that can play significant minutes .... that will help the 1st three lines a lot IMO.
I'll take your Letang for Bozak and JVR trade...although I think you can get more.
Guentzel - Crosby - JVR
Rust - Malkin - Sprong
Hornqvist - Bozak - Kessel
Rowney - Sheahan - Kuhnhackl
Trade Reaves back out west for a 2nd rounder
Trade Hagelin in a salary dump
Trade Sheary for D
Trade Cole for D. previous rumors of Lovejoy for Cole make me vomit.
Schultz - Dumo
Maatta - (Sheary trade)
Hunwick-Ruhwedel-Oleksiak + another trade in the Hainsey mold.
Can you add a rental like Luca Sbisa or Jason Garrison from Vegas? How about Josh Gorges from Buffalo in a dump.
Definitely agree letang only for a good return.
I just think he’s tradeable. Say for a top 6 forward and second pairing defense.
Yeah, I’m right with you on all of those counts.
Bryant Reeves has not worked out. He is clearly a tough guy and he definitely makes life safer for Crosby and Malkin. However, he can’t play as many minutes as we need him to play and that is killing the team.
We are trying to play high energy hockey with just three lines and that just doesn’t work.
I’m not giving up on the team as much is I am not willing to go all in for this group. I’d be taking a wait and see approach to see if it’s worth doubling down here?
If the whole team is tired and drained, what good does it do to start trading away core pieces?
Bryant Reeves has not worked out. He is clearly a tough guy and he definitely makes life safer for Crosby and Malkin. However, he can’t play as many minutes as we need him to play and that is killing the team.
We are trying to play high energy hockey with just three lines and that just doesn’t work.
I’m not giving up on the team as much is I am not willing to go all in for this group. I’d be taking a wait and see approach to see if it’s worth doubling down here?
If the whole team is tired and drained, what good does it do to start trading away core pieces?
First, you are not going to get a top four defenseman for Conor Sheary. Secondly, that lineup looks a lot worse than what we have trotted out there the previous two springs and I would not bet on it to advance very far.
However, if you add Letang to what Toronto already has, I would definitely like their chances to advance. They would love to add a legitimate top four D who is also right-handed. Oh my God, they would be thrilled! That would be like manna from heaven for them.
Unfortunately, I’m a Penguins fan so I don’t wish to see that happen.
Pens have a LOT of time off over the next 2 months. They were screwed royally by the NHL for whatever reason with all the back 2 backs, but they will benefit later.
Off completely from 1/8 - 1/12
1/24 - 2/1 = 2 game
2/4 - 2/8 = 1 game
2/19 - 2/22 = no games
3/16 - 3/19 = no games
Definitely enough time to get their legs back. Sullivan also needs to be smart and rest players in the back 2 backs. Use the kids like Sprong, Simon, ZAR, Blueger, Johnson to add some spark for 3-5 games.
Off completely from 1/8 - 1/12
1/24 - 2/1 = 2 game
2/4 - 2/8 = 1 game
2/19 - 2/22 = no games
3/16 - 3/19 = no games
Definitely enough time to get their legs back. Sullivan also needs to be smart and rest players in the back 2 backs. Use the kids like Sprong, Simon, ZAR, Blueger, Johnson to add some spark for 3-5 games.
And he might....but are you willing to risk this and wait it out? Sometimes you have to give up something to get something.
5 games just to see what the fresh legs can do. If he sucks look outside the organization for the improvement.
Yes but remember, the four "core" players not including Murray are all now 30 or over. So maybe it is time to make this move.
I believe Malkin and Letang will be moved eventually. 3 or 4 years down the road. They still have a few good runs left for the 4th cup together.
Frankly, I think only Sid and Malkin are untradeable.
Kessel and letang Are that next level below- where it takes a big return .
Yeah, I think we are in agreement ...... again I wouldn't trade core players unless I get core players in return that help the team to be better this year and in the future.
I think getting a good 3rd line center and a couple other pieces should not cost us core players and bring up a player or two more from WBS all these players (trade and WBS) with fresher legs and role 4 lines will all help a lot .... if, in addition, the core players up their game to potential, we may have a chance at the playoffs and I would shoot for that and see what ensues.
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As several of my posts have stated, I'm not against trading core players but only if I get core players in return that help make the team better now and in the future ..... that being said, Sid and Geno are not going to be traded this year ..... I don't think Murray is going anywhere this year ...... Kessel and Letang would be two players that the Pens might listen to trade proposals but again the returns would have to be BIG TIME and help the Pens this season and in the future to be a better team ..... anyway that is my opinion.
I agree ..... I don't think he will be traded this season for just the reason you said.
Keep in mind that Phil Bourque let the cat out of the bag and the Pens already have a trade pending that can't be announced til thursday when the freeze is over. The anticipation is killing me.
We have won the last two Stanley Cups. I am just saying this to highlight, life has been REALLY GOOD as a Penguin fan.
However, I am also a hockey fan. One of my favorite sporting events of the year is the World Jr Tourney. It is starting to concern me that this is like the 4th or maybe 5th year in the row I am watching this tourney with almost zero Penguin prospects playing in it. I know alot of this is because of trading high draft picks, but at some point the Pens need to start stocking up on young talent again.
I have no idea what players are involved in the trade (if indeed a trade goes through) but just for fun (and I'm probable wrong), I think it may be Cole and a forward on the Pens roster for a 3rd line center and maybe a 3rd line defenseman or defenseman prospect.
I hope it is Sheary, if anyone. His two way game is trash and he turns the puck over like a hot potato. I would not shed a tear if he left.
A Sheary/Cole Combo along with another small piece could net something ok. Sheary's contract is favorable.
I certainly share your concern but they are trying to win Stanley Cups while Sid and Geno are still premium players and I just don't think they will trade core players this year for prospects (they may trade them if they get a big return that helps the team now and in the future and that could include really good young players that are already in the NHL) ..... it's all about winning now ....... unfortunately, this strategy may well catch up with us in the future and there could be lean years ahead.
Maybe it's more than 2 players going each way or maybe there is more than one trade ...... sounds like it could be pretty interesting, just hope it makes us a better team.
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