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Ukraine discussion thread - Use this thread

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Pretty well it seems based on increased drug seizures
And overseeing the actual deptS in charge of the border
yes, drugs are the only thing we need to worry about coming over our border. Refusing to adhere to current laws on immigration simply because you dont support them are justified. Vaccine mandates for US citizens but not for illegals are acceptable as well. Lets put more strain onto our welfare system. Typical liberal. Change the laws if the majority of the people want them. If not, then enforce them.
 
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yes, drugs are the only thing we need to worry about coming over our border. Refusing to adhere to current laws on immigration simply because you dont support them are justified. Vaccine mandates for US citizens but not for illegals are acceptable as well. Lets put more strain onto our welfare system. Typical liberal. Change the laws if the majority of the people want them. If not, then enforce them.

Actually so far in year 2022 drug seizures have taken a step backwards even though encounters have tripled.
 
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There was plenty of grass roots support for siding with the West vs. Russia. Did they interview anyone Eastern Ukrainians? Nope. It conceded that Vanukovych was legitimately elected (second time at least) so this was indeed a coup. It's a great documentary if you want to get into the protests back then.

We know that the current regime and most of Ukraine wants to side with the EU. A film seeking truth would have interviewed Eastern Ukrainians and provided balance.

It never touched on the long standing agreement that NATO will never move East. Never mentions Minsk. These are what matter today. All I'm saying is that there is more to the present crisis than Maidan protests. I was just hoping for more. Not saying you did anything wrong. Like you admitted, this is just one side.
Yes, the film only covers the street protests in Kyiv and doesn't pretend to be anything else, particularly not things that went on in eastern Ukraine. afterwords...which in reality were largely fomented by Russia as a way to weaken the new government. It isn't a film that seeks to answer a question about subsequent Dombass war or Crimea. What it does is show why EU and NATO are so important to Ukraine now, why they won't turn from those goals, and why Russia's pressure and invasion have not had the effects that it thought it would. Whatever support Russia has had in Eastern Ukraine is gone.

Vanukovych was seemingly legitimately elected the second time, but it was his broken promises in turning to Russia and away from the EU that caused the initial demonstrations in the streets; but it was his violent, Putin-like suppression of those demonstrations that ultimately galvanized and popularized the movement led to his fleeting to Russia. He didn't have the people nor the military with him, that is why he fled because the people were going to violently revolt and the military wasn't going to stop them.

NATO NEVER made an agreement not to expand east. That is Russian retconning of history. The idea was floated during diplomatic talks following the fall of the Berlin wall in the context of German reunification. It was never privately or publicly agreed to and no such promises were ever made, and frankly, Russia was too weak at the time to even force such a position. There have been multiple people around the table that have attested to that, unless you somehow give more credibility to the Russian narrative of, well, anything...which hopefully everyone knows better by now. The rest is Russian BS they hope if they keep repeating so people, primarily their own, will buy into their "persecuted Russia" narrative that runs historically deep.

Note that there are two words for true and three words for lie in Russian language. "Pravda," which you probably are aware of because it is the title of the state newspaper, actually means a something more like a malleable truth. They is a very different concept of truth and lies in Russia. It is not binary as it is in the West. Culturally and historically, there is a big difference with Russian statements and Western statements because of this and the West doesn't typically understand it. A lot of Orwellian double-speak in Russia and acceptability of bending or changing the truth as acceptable truth as long as it results in desired outcomes.
 
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Did you say hot babes ?
I think i have time to squeeze it in now,no pun intended
FNRIXViXMAksHsb
 
What do you think about the theory of certain interests within the US influencing the war so that the Germans would stop importing gas via the Nord Stream pipeline?
I haven't heard that one, but I have no doubt that some would exploit the war to get their end goal of closing the p/l. The bigger the money, the bigger the odds for corruption.
 
What is the US guilty of? What have you seen plenty of?

Seriously, the documentary is not about who is responsible, it is on-the-ground firs-person insight into the mentality of Ukrainians during the 2014 Maidan Revolution. If you want to know why there have been mass protests in Kherson even while Russian soldiers are firing at them, and how badly Putin has miscalculated and put himself into an impossible situation because of severely wrong understanding of Ukrainians, and why Ukraine is not likely going to settle for neutrality, this will help you understand.

If you want to understand the Russian perspective, than there is a great lecture by a former Finnish intellegence officer online (all in Finnish with subtitles and from prior to the war) that will give perspective on how Russia thinks about the world (rightly or wrongly).
The short version of what the US is guilty of: ignoring Russia's legitimate (from their perspective) perspective of security concerns from having a western country on their border. The US has been meddling in Ukraine politics to push them toward the west. Russia does not trust that NATO or EU membership is purely defensive in nature with the US next door.

Who knows when the meddling started, but absolute proof came in a leaked 2014 phone call between Victoria Nuland and Amb. Geoff Pyatt.


Russia was not happy with the coup and the US help.

Since then, the US has armed Ukraine. Those arms can serve only one purpose - fighting Russia or its surrogates.
 
THERE WAS NOT VOTER FRAUD TRUMP LOST!!!!!! That is the truth, he LOST!
I guess that settles it, then. We can all go back to Ukraine now assured that the '20 election was pure. Happjack says its true.
 
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Yes, the film only covers the street protests in Kyiv and doesn't pretend to be anything else, particularly not things that went on in eastern Ukraine. afterwords...which in reality were largely fomented by Russia as a way to weaken the new government. It isn't a film that seeks to answer a question about subsequent Dombass war or Crimea. What it does is show why EU and NATO are so important to Ukraine now, why they won't turn from those goals, and why Russia's pressure and invasion have not had the effects that it thought it would. Whatever support Russia has had in Eastern Ukraine is gone.

Vanukovych was seemingly legitimately elected the second time, but it was his broken promisses in turnning to Russia and away from the EU that caused the initial demonstrations in the streets; but it was his violent, Putin-like suppression of those demonstrations that ultimately galvanized and popularized the movement led to his fleeting to Russia. He didn't have the people nor the military with him, that is why he fled because the people were going to violently revolt and the military wasn't going to stop them.

NATO NEVER made an agreement not to expand east. That is Russian retconning of history. The idea was floated during diplomatic talks following the fall of the Berlin wall in the context of German reunification. It was never privately or publicly agreed to and no such promises were ever made, and frankly, Russia was too weak at the time to even force such a position. There have been multiple people around the table that have attested to that, unless you somehow give more credibility to the Russian narrative of, well, anything...which hopefully everyone knows better now. The rest is Russian BS they hope if they keep repeating so people, primarily their own, will buy into their "persecuted Russia" narrative.

Note that there are two words for true and three words for lie in Russian language. "Pravda," which you probably are aware of because it is the title of the state newspaper, actually means a something more like a malleable truth. They is a very different concept of truth and lies in Russia. It is not binary as it is in the West. Culturally and historically, there is a big difference with Russian statements and Western statements because of this and the West doesn't typically understand it. A lot of Orwellian double-speak in Russia and acceptability of bending or changing the truth as acceptable truth as long as it results in desired outcomes.
It's not Russian B.S. Sigh. There are lots of Western scholars who confirm that assurances were made. But, you are right in that this was never written into the agreements. I forget the name of the old liberal author/professor, but he laughed about how this was agreed to but also how naive the Russkies were to take our word for it.

But if that's the issue, then we need only remember that the Monroe Doctrine was never signed by any foreign country.

Russia won't allow a NATO Ukraine on their doorstep and they won't back down. Unless we want nuclear war, there's nothing the West can do militarily. We put forth a similar rationale during the Cuban missile crisis. Hard to make the argument that Putin is evil for doing what we've done.

IMO Ukraine's best hope is that they, and sanctions, combine to make it so painful for Putin that the Russian Republic seeks an escape hatch to cut their losses. I hope this is how it plays out.

Anyhow. Thanks for the dialogue.
 
Voter IDs are claimed to be racist because certain minorities aren't able to take off work or necessarily have a mode of transportation to get the free ID offered by every state. Hence it becomes voter suppression to the Left.
Aren't IDs required to get a job?
 
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Aren't IDs required to get a job?


I know everyone i hired we needed an I-9 for sure. That's a Federal requirement.

It's a mix-match set of things you can use.
One from Part A or 2 from Parts B and C combined.

The most set used in my experience was a DL and SS Card.
 
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Why major election days aren't a holiday is beyond me.. working a full day and then getting in a long line at a polling station, can be a burden for many, especially if you're using public transportation or have young children...
we have a holiday for everything else..
 
Why major election days aren't a holiday is beyond me.. working a full day and then getting in a long line at a polling station, can be a burden for many, especially if you're using public transportation or have young children...
we have a holiday for everything else..
Good idea because apparently there are voters who can't get to a voting station. The people who take part in voter harvesting can drive people to the polls so THEY can vote!
 
Sorry but the OP is sadly correct. Her own party did not even want her as a candidate and she could not win a single state in her presidential bid.
She is a woman of color who gained her position on merit. No matter what you see or think, she is excellent. Unless you are racist.
 
Why major election days aren't a holiday is beyond me.. working a full day and then getting in a long line at a polling station, can be a burden for many, especially if you're using public transportation or have young children...
we have a holiday for everything else..
Why voting doesn't occur for the 2 weeks before election day in every state is beyond me. Then you don't have the long lines. I've had that in each of the last 3 states I've lived - GA, TX, and NC.
 

Ukraine discussion thread - Use this thread.​

It should be simple to follow. But the same posters continually drag partisan politics into the thread. A group of Kindergarten kids have more restraint and follow directions better.​

Hard not to look at political policies that got us into this place! Every day we make bone headed decisions that enable Putin's murders!
 
elections and voting are rather.. umm.. "sacred" might be a good word.. for a democracy..

1. There is a history of voter suppression in this country.. that's just a fact... so I'm open to those that say there are efforts to manipulate elections with voter suppression.. Since there is a factual history for this in the past, I can understand their concerns..

2. Voting fraud can't be tolerated... I understand all concerns for this.. I must say, however, that there have been many "claims" of fraud that have proven to be nothing more than "fake news".. yet still, I can understand that there are concerns (while also being outraged at those who promote false claims)...

3. gerrymandering has got to go... it's criminal... and wrong

I really can't understand the INTOLERANCE that some seem to have towards these positions...

on another note...

4. I don't like that my vote on a national election counts for LESS than a vote in, say, North Dakota, due to the mechanics of the Electoral College.. it seems unfair to me.. But I understand this is something that is NOT going to change, and I don't advocate for it to change.. yet is does seem unfair to me somehow..
Yeah back in the 40's, 50's and 60's in the South. That history now is over 60 years old and is no longer happening.
 
yes.. accessible.. isn't mail in voting MORE accessible ?..

you REALLY can't see any merit to concerns of voter SUPPRESSION ?.. really... I can understand concerns of voter fraud.. it's a real concern... why isn't voter suppression a real concern also ? and don't get me started on "gerrymandering" with is disgusting..

Where are you hearing this nonsense of voter suppression, other than from far left, progressive news outlets like CNN and MSNBC? It's just not a fact.
 
Hard not to look at political policies that got us into this place! Every day we make bone headed decisions that enable Putin's murders!
Yeah but the problem is....we think we control everything in the world. Russia's Russia. Putin's Putin. Ukraine is Ukraine. Zelenskyy is Zelenskyy. These guys don't have Donkey's or Elephant's next to their name. Plus Europe and NATO needs to be taking more of a lead.
 
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Yeah but the problem is....we think we control everything in the world. Russia's Russia. Putin's Putin. Ukraine is Ukraine. Zelenskyy is Zelenskyy. These guys don't have Donkey's or Elephant's next to their name. Plus Europe and NATO needs to be taking more of a lead.
Good point but we control a lot and our policies blow and expose us!
 
elections and voting are rather.. umm.. "sacred" might be a good word.. for a democracy..

1. There is a history of voter suppression in this country.. that's just a fact... so I'm open to those that say there are efforts to manipulate elections with voter suppression.. Since there is a factual history for this in the past, I can understand their concerns..

2. Voting fraud can't be tolerated... I understand all concerns for this.. I must say, however, that there have been many "claims" of fraud that have proven to be nothing more than "fake news".. yet still, I can understand that there are concerns (while also being outraged at those who promote false claims)...

3. gerrymandering has got to go... it's criminal... and wrong

I really can't understand the INTOLERANCE that some seem to have towards these positions...

on another note...

4. I don't like that my vote on a national election counts for LESS than a vote in, say, North Dakota, due to the mechanics of the Electoral College.. it seems unfair to me.. But I understand this is something that is NOT going to change, and I don't advocate for it to change.. yet is does seem unfair to me somehow..

I'm not going to address the many non-facts in your post. It would take too long.

One thing is obvious...you have no understanding of the U.S. Constitution, the Electoral College or the voting mechanism in a Constitutional Republic. Understand that we are, thankfully, not a democracy. We do not rule by mob rule. We are a Constitutional Republic, which gives rise to the beauty and the practicality of the Electoral College. I suggest you do some reading on the Constitution and why we have an Electoral College. Our Founding Fathers knew what they were doing because they learned from the mistakes of the British monarchy.
 
Voter IDs are claimed to be racist because certain minorities aren't able to take off work or necessarily have a mode of transportation to get the free ID offered by every state. Hence it becomes voter suppression to the Left.

Just a flimsy excuse for the left. There is no excuse to NOT have a valid voter ID. If minorities can get a driver's license, they can get their asses out the door to get a voter ID. Then they can go to the polls to vote. No one is suppressing their vote.
 
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It's not Russian B.S. Sigh. There are lots of Western scholars who confirm that assurances were made. But, you are right in that this was never written into the agreements. I forget the name of the old liberal author/professor, but he laughed about how this was agreed to but also how naive the Russkies were to take our word for it.

But if that's the issue, then we need only remember that the Monroe Doctrine was never signed by any foreign country.

Russia won't allow a NATO Ukraine on their doorstep and they won't back down. Unless we want nuclear war, there's nothing the West can do militarily. We put forth a similar rationale during the Cuban missile crisis. Hard to make the argument that Putin is evil for doing what we've done.

IMO Ukraine's best hope is that they, and sanctions, combine to make it so painful for Putin that the Russian Republic seeks an escape hatch to cut their losses. I hope this is how it plays out.

Anyhow. Thanks for the dialogue.
It is ABSOLUTELY Russian BS. It was floated as possible discussion point, it was NEVER promised, officially or unofficially, nor was it even seriously discussed. Again, this is Russian version of bending the truth to fit their strategic narrative. Did you hear of this narrative before the last couple of years? In 1997, Yeltsin signed an agreement to allow enlargement of NATO. Poland, Hungary, and Czech joined in 1999. Remember the outrage of the broken secret whisper agreement in 2004 when the Baltics joined? No?, neither does anyone else. That doesn't mean they don't have legit security concerns, but the story of the secret promise is absolute BS. Bending a little piece of truth into a big lie to serve their narrative is absolutely the standard operating procedure of the Kremlin and has been for a long time.

Regarding their concerns with NATO, they already have NATO on their border with Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia which effectively cuts off Kaliningrad. If they don't like NATO on their border, they will be absolutely destroyed militarily if they try to force the issue. They are very close to pushing Sweden and Finland into NATO with their insane invasion. They can't even defeat Ukraine without direct NATO involvement for goodness sake. Their military is an absolute mess and being exposed as a corrupt, technologically lacking paper tiger. My lord, they can't even gain air superiority when they have 15X the number of combat aircraft. Their economy is getting wrecked. They've been completely exposed with this campaign and I don't know if there is an off ramp for Putin other than a gun in his mouth.

People seem to forget that the West has 1000s of nuclear warheads too.

BTW, there are reports Russia is prepping Ukraine's nuclear sites they've capture with the intent to plant evidence Ukraine was secretly manufacturing nuclear weapons (and have already floated the chemical weapon story). They're going to try absolutely everything.
 
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