A Football Life Dan Marino

[The Ole Six-Fiver]

He was too set in his ways, 1970s attrition football to go all in with a wide open pass first attack, I can't see it. even Cowher or Tomlin have never fully committed to pass happy, even with Ben's skills available to them.

Did you see any Steelers games from 1978 through 1983? Noll let Bradshaw fling the ball to the rafters nearly every play. As someone else mentioned Noll spent a lot of formative coaching years with Sid Gillman… the father of the pass-first offense. But having also cut his teeth with Paul Brown as a player (messenger guard) he was also realistic enough to use the best system for success at that time.

He likely brought the offense back to earth after Bradshaw left only because the foolish Steelers management didn’t draft Marino when it could have. He recognized he had one dud after the other at the QB position (Stout, Woodley, Malone, Blackledge, Campbell, Brister). If the choice is letting a turd like one of those guys fire one bad INT after another, it was a better plan to hand the ball off more often even if it was boring and dubious in itself to do so.

I don’t know who deserves the blame for all those bad QBs, maybe Noll shared in those decisions along with their personnel guys … but if you see how bad all those QBs regularly played (and there are umpteen videos on YouTube from that Steelers Error, I mean Era, that show many examples), I think you’d agree he made the right decision to not try to go Bill Walsh with the offense in that decade.

By the end Noll was over the hill, out of touch, foolishly hired losers like Joe Walton as coordinator, and badly needed to be replaced. That much I’ll agree on. And his replacement Cowher does fit your accusation of a run-heavy ball control guy, for better or worse, likely the latter…. But that’s another story.

However, Noll definitely did not deserve the Ground Chuck reputation some seem to think he does. Super Bowl IX did not a career make.

 

[Pitt79]

Did you see any Steelers games from 1978 through 1983? Noll let Bradshaw fling the ball to the rafters nearly every play.

Actually they ran the ball at least 60% of the time, go look it up.

 

[Slick Manager of Champs]

I don’t know who deserves the blame for all those bad QBs, maybe Noll shared in those decisions along with their personnel guys … but if you see how bad all those QBs regularly played (and there are umpteen videos on YouTube from that Steelers Error, I mean Era, that show many examples), I think you’d agree he made the right decision to not try to go Bill Walsh with the offense in that decade.

Makes you wonder how Louis Lipps put up the numbers he did. Imagine if he would have been teamed up with Marino? Noll would have coached into the mid 90's.

I think mostly Noll gets the blame on passing on Marino. I've seen interviews where he mentions the unfounded "rumors" as to why they didn't draft him. Plus they thought former #1 pick Malone was a capable replacement for Bradshaw.

The irony of irony for Noll is that what he thought ailed Marino is what ruined the career of who he drafted instead.

 

[happjack]

Makes you wonder how Louis Lipps put up the numbers he did. Imagine if he would have been teamed up with Marino? Noll would have coached into the mid 90's.

I think mostly Noll gets the blame on passing on Marino. I've seen interviews where he mentions the unfounded "rumors" as to why they didn't draft him. Plus they thought former #1 pick Malone was a capable replacement for Bradshaw.

The irony of irony for Noll is that what he thought ailed Marino is what ruined the career of who he drafted instead.

Louis Lipps is one of the greatest Steeler players never to win a Super Bowl, it's amazing what he did with such shitty QB's.

Noll thought he had the next Joe Greene with Rivera, that's why they took him, were any other QB's even on the Steelers radar that year?

Say the Steelers have the #7 pick KC had and took a QB, do you think they'd have gone with Blackledge, Kelly, Eason, O'Brien, or Marino?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

He was too set in his ways, 1970s attrition football to go all in with a wide open pass first attack, I can't see it.

You obviously stopped watch the Stillers before they won their 3rd and 4th Super Bowls.

The Stillers were 14th in the NFL in rushing in 1978 and tied for 12th in rushing touchdowns, while they were 12th in passing and 1st in the NFL in touchdown passes. They followed that up in 1979 by being second in the NFL in passing (behind only Don Coryell's San Diego Chargers) and fifth in passing touchdowns.

The fact is that the Stillers won those last two Super Bowls on Terry Bradshaw's arm. As anyone paying attention at the time, or who bothered to look back on it in the years since, would know. Because Chuck Noll had no problem adapting to the talent that he had and the rules the game was being played by.

 

[Pitt79]

You obviously stopped watch the Stillers before they won their 3rd and 4th Super Bowls.

The Stillers were 14th in the NFL in rushing in 1978 and tied for 12th in rushing touchdowns, while they were 12th in passing and 1st in the NFL in touchdown passes. They followed that up in 1979 by being second in the NFL in passing (behind only Don Coryell's San Diego Chargers) and fifth in passing touchdowns.

The fact is that the Stillers won those last two Super Bowls on Terry Bradshaw's arm. As anyone paying attention at the time, or who bothered to look back on it in the years since, would know. Because Chuck Noll had no problem adapting to the talent that he had and the rules the game was being played by.

If you look at the stats for 1978 the Steelers ran the ball 63% of the snaps. 380 pass attempts, 641 rushes. In 79, they passed a little more, but still ran 55% of the time.

 

[wbrpanther]

I agree, Steelers/Yinzers are obsessed with rock pounding, even after having a serious QB with serious passing ability, all they obsess over still is Poundin' da rock and controllin' da clock. They had Ben who is a hall of fame 21st century high level passer and they'd open games trying to run and not cut Ben loose until falling behind. I totally agree, Noll would have been TOO STUPID to do WHAT IS RIGHT with a talent like Marino: GO PASS HAPPY.

The Dolphins s never got over the hump with Marino because Shula got away from pounding the ball because it was too easy to get down the field on Marino’s arm. But sooner or later you have to be able to run the ball and the Phins couldn’t do it. With Noll’s running game and Marino passing I’d say the Steelers win 2 or 3 more SBs. Noll would have adapted fine.

 

[Pitt79]

The Dolphins s never got over the hump with Marino because Shula got away from pounding the ball because it was too easy to get down the field on Marino’s arm. But sooner or later you have to be able to run the ball and the Phins couldn’t do it. With Noll’s running game and Marino passing I’d say the Steelers win 2 or 3 more SBs. Noll would have adapted fine.

I guess we'll never know.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

If you look at the stats for 1978 the Steelers ran the ball 63% of the snaps. 380 pass attempts, 641 rushes. In 79, they passed a little more, but still ran 55% of the time.

The percentage of snaps matters a lot less than what they did with those snaps. They won the third and fourth Super Bowls on Bradshaw's arm, as anyone paying attention at the time and who understood what they were watching could obviously see.

The notion that you have the Chuck Noll couldn't adapt to a passing offense because he didn't let guys like Cliff Stout, Mark Malone and Bubby Brister throw the ball all over the park is crazy, even by your standards.

 

[YourPittDanceTeam]

The Dolphins s never got over the hump with Marino because Shula got away from pounding the ball because it was too easy to get down the field on Marino’s arm. But sooner or later you have to be able to run the ball and the Phins couldn’t do it. With Noll’s running game and Marino passing I’d say the Steelers win 2 or 3 more SBs. Noll would have adapted fine.

Quite simply NOT TRUE. Chuck Noll was as stubborn as an individual could be. Also, if he had "adjusted" and they threw the ball more, then the running game would not have been as good as it was. If Dan Marino would have drafted by the steelers, he would have produced stats similar to Mark Malone and Bubby Brister. He would not have been in the HOF and he would not have become the superstar that we all admire and respect today. The best thing that happened to Dan Marino was that he was a Miami Dolphin and not a Pittsburgh Steeler.

 

[wbrpanther]

Quite simply NOT TRUE. Chuck Noll was as stubborn as an individual could be. Also, if he had "adjusted" and they threw the ball more, then the running game would not have been as good as it was. If Dan Marino would have drafted by the steelers, he would have produced stats similar to Mark Malone and Bubby Brister. He would not have been in the HOF and he would not have become the superstar that we all admire and respect today. The best thing that happened to Dan Marino was that he was a Miami Dolphin and not a Pittsburgh Steeler.

Your opinion.

 

[DaveTrout]

I guess we'll never know.

You win.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Your opinion.

To be fair though, a really dumb one.

I mean good lord, Dan Marino would have produced just like Mark Malone and Bubby Brister. That is insane even by this board's standards.

 

[YourPittDanceTeam]

Your opinion.

It is and there is enough independent reports out there by people who were a lot closer to the Steelers Organization and Chuck Noll who would support my opinion.

 

[wbrpanther]

It is and there is enough independent reports out there by people who were a lot closer to the Steelers Organization and Chuck Noll who would support my opinion.

Chuck Noll changed Philosophies in the late 70s when they put in the Mel Blount rule. They started running less and throwing more to take advantage of the new rule. This is well documented fact. So yes, he would have changed to utilize Marino’s skills.

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

Louis Lipps is one of the greatest Steeler players never to win a Super Bowl, it's amazing what he did with such shitty QB's.

Noll thought he had the next Joe Greene with Rivera, that's why they took him, were any other QB's even on the Steelers radar that year?

Say the Steelers have the #7 pick KC had and took a QB, do you think they'd have gone with Blackledge, Kelly, Eason, O'Brien, or Marino?

There were no other QBs on their radar in 1983. The team thought Bradshaw was playing three or four more years. They had no idea he would go to some backwoods Louisiana doctor and have surgery done on his elbow.

The Steelers should’ve drafted Hostetler in round two in 1984. He is under center from 1986-96 and gives the position some stability.

 

[The Ole Six-Fiver]

I don’t know that Marino would have put up the crazy personal stats as a Steeler as he did as a Dolphin…but I sure as hell know he would have played a ton better than the dregs the Steelers had at that position during the entire decade.

For that reason alone, it is lamentable (if you were a Steelers fan of course) that the team believed the lies of Smizik and Keidan and didn’t draft Marino. Because even if he were “coked out” as rumored to be (which guys like his college roommate Jimbo Covert swear to this day he wasn’t) he would instantly still have eclipsed the rotting garbage they had.

I love Pitt and Marino (likewise guys like Conner and Pickett now) but don’t particularly care if those guys had/will put up monster personal stats for the Steelers. Once in the black and gold all that matters is whether they contributed to team success. The likelihood of Marino helping the Steelers win was a trillion percent more than a Mark Malone, who was already widely known to be a total dud by 1983, or guys that failed miserably for their original teams like Woodley and Blackledge.

Would Noll have restrained the passing game somewhat more than Shula? Likely. But the biggest critique of Marino’s time in Miami is that they did not run the ball at all. Noll would not have clamped Marino down but would have likely kept more of a run/pass balance that the Steelers had in the late 70s. Would that have led to championships? It would have been nice to know.

Too bad.

 

[YourPittDanceTeam]

Chuck Noll changed Philosophies in the late 70s when they put in the Mel Blount rule. They started running less and throwing more to take advantage of the new rule. This is well documented fact. So yes, he would have changed to utilize Marino’s skills.

wbrpanther...The Chuck Noll that I remember would not have done what you said he would. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it will not change mine.
Now that I think about it, the Steelers, as an organization, have live off of doing things their ways. They have also had a history of having stubborn, hard headed head coaches.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The Chuck Noll that I remember would not have done what you said he would.

And what people are trying to point out to you is that just because you don't remember it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. When the NFL opened up the passing game and the Stillers had a top level quarterback the Stillers did, in fact, pass the ball a lot more. On the other hand, when the Stillers had stooges like Bubby Brister and Mark Malone as their starting quarterback they passed the ball less.

Or in other words, the Stillers opened their offense up when they had the quarterback to execute that offense, and when they didn't they did not.

 

[ASDannels]

Funny how often the word rumors comes up.

 

[wbrpanther]

wbrpanther...The Chuck Noll that I remember would not have done what you said he would. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it will not change mine.
Now that I think about it, the Steelers, as an organization, have live off of doing things their ways. They have also had a history of having stubborn, hard headed head coaches.

Well, it’s pretty well documented that he did exactly that in the late 70s after they changed the rules.

 

[lilspainishflea]

If you look at the stats for 1978 the Steelers ran the ball 63% of the snaps. 380 pass attempts, 641 rushes. In 79, they passed a little more, but still ran 55% of the time.

They won 14 games by an average of 10 points per game. They had maybe the best scoring defense of all time. I think it's pretty safe to say that a large % of their rushing plays were in positive game script (i.e., they had a big lead).

It's more insightful to look at play selection in neutral setting. Were the 1978 Steelers passing it only 37% of the time when tied or trailing? I don't have that stat in front of me but I doubt it.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

If you look at the stats for 1978 the Steelers ran the ball 63% of the snaps. 380 pass attempts, 641 rushes. In 79, they passed a little more, but still ran 55% of the time.

They were also largely ahead in most games.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Yeah I had to go look up the Steelers 84 season. Was shocked they made it to the AFC Championship game.
That 83 QB class was something else.

The Steelers were my team growing up and the dolphins were my adopted team that year. I was literally torn because Marino was my guy as a kid. While all my friends were on the pond playing hockey that day, I was in my living room not succumbing to peer pressure when I got the AM phone calls one after another trying to change my mind and come out and play. Lol. We always had enough for 3-4 teams on the weekends. They didn’t need me.

And that game vs the vaunted Bears 1985 defense? My mom let me stay up to watch the whole thing on Monday night football. Marino picked them apart.

 

[YourPittDanceTeam]

And what people are trying to point out to you is that just because you don't remember it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. When the NFL opened up the passing game and the Stillers had a top level quarterback the Stillers did, in fact, pass the ball a lot more. On the other hand, when the Stillers had stooges like Bubby Brister and Mark Malone as their starting quarterback they passed the ball less.

Or in other words, the Stillers opened their offense up when they had the quarterback to execute that offense, and when they didn't they did not.

People are certainly entitled to express their opinion as am I and I was young enough at the time to remember what kind of coach Chuck Noll was. The man was STUBBORN to me as a young kid and there is quite a few other people who saw the same thing. I am not some sort of am NFL/Steelers expert, but I know what I saw and that is how my opinion was formed.
Based upon your last sentence, the Steelers must not think very much of Kenny Pickett because they failed to, as you say, "open up their offense when they had the quarterback to do so".

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Based upon your last sentence, the Steelers must not think very much of Kenny Pickett because they failed to, as you say, "open up their offense when they had the quarterback to do so".

Well yeah, pretty much. The Stillers thought that they had a rookie playing quarterback last season who was not a surefire superstar top pick in the draft, and they ran an offense that one might expect from a team with a rookie in that situation behind center.

The difference is that in 30 years, if we are all still here, you'll be on here remembering that the Stillers limited what they asked Pickett to do as a rookie and use that as proof that they did that his whole career, and you will completely ignore the next decade of his career, when he became a Pro Bowl regular. Because of what he looked like for the first year or two of his career.

When Noll had mediocre and worse quarterbacking, including Terry Bradshaw early in his career, he leaned heavily on the running game. When Noll had a quarterback who was performing at his Hall of Fame best and the rules made passing easier the Stillers passed the ball a lot. They changed their offense based on the talent at hand and the rules in force at the time. Those are the facts, no matter how you remember things.

 

[Pitt79]

OK actual stats don't matter, they ran 63% of the time and where pass happy!

 

[YourPittDanceTeam]

Well yeah, pretty much. The Stillers thought that they had a rookie playing quarterback last season who was not a surefire superstar top pick in the draft, and they ran an offense that one might expect from a team with a rookie in that situation behind center.

The difference is that in 30 years, if we are all still here, you'll be on here remembering that the Stillers limited what they asked Pickett to do as a rookie and use that as proof that they did that his whole career, and you will completely ignore the next decade of his career, when he became a Pro Bowl regular. Because of what he looked like for the first year or two of his career.

When Noll had mediocre and worse quarterbacking, including Terry Bradshaw early in his career, he leaned heavily on the running game. When Noll had a quarterback who was performing at his Hall of Fame best and the rules made passing easier the Stillers passed the ball a lot. They changed their offense based on the talent at hand and the rules in force at the time. Those are the facts, no matter how you remember things.

Again, we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject. There is nothing that you or any one else can tell me that will change my mind about the subject. I was alive at the time and got to experience those years as they happened. My opinion is supported by quite a few sports writers and players who saw things the same way as I did.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Again, we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject. There is nothing that you or any one else can tell me that will change my mind about the subject. I was alive at the time and got to experience those years as they happened. My opinion is supported by quite a few sports writers and players who saw things the same way as I did.

Yep, we can agree to disagree. As long as everyone knows that one of us has based their opinion on the facts and the other has based their opinion on an incorrect recollection of something that happened 40 years ago, no problem. People have uninformed opinions all the time.