An Elite Eight that lives up to its hype?

[pitt-girl]

I understand what this article is getting at, but I guess I'm not buying that an Elite 8 should be more or less "chalk" to be truly elite. For instance, Butler emerging onto the national scene as a virtual unknown didn't diminish the last games of those particular tournaments for me.

And I've been thinking about Recruits OP the other day that follows along the same lines as this article. Maybe it marks me as being a hater, but this Kentucky team kind of gets on my nerves. The fact that is virtually impossible to amass this kind of talent on one team these days just makes me more suspicious of Coach Cal and the Ky program. There are a handful of very great coaches out there, arguably greater than Cal, who can't put together a roster like this. Is it because Cal is just such a great recruiter (which I think he is) that everyone wants to play for him? I mean why can't Izzo put these kinds of rosters together when he has proven to be a VERY successful regular season and tournament coach? It's just too fishy for me to buy. Give me a team with some normal flaws instead - if I wanted to see this I could watch the NBA. And it's precisely why I prefer college hoops vs. professional. JMO.

Thoughts?

Chalk is best?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I don't know about the rest of yinz....I am excited and interested in these 4 games.

Wisky/Arizona as good as a Championship matchup.
ND/UK Enough said
Zaga/Duke Outstanding matchup
Lville/MSU Maybe the matchup of the two best tourney coaches not names K

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply

People seem to act or think that every year Calipari has been coaching that he has been able to recruit this amount of talent--which is simply untrue. Cal is an amazing recruiter, but like all elite coaches...some years are better than others. He has been at it for quite a while...and this team is likely his best. Who in recent years has put more guys in the NBA? Cal attracts "NBA talent" because he gets them in the league [and is well-known as a "players" coach]. Kentucky has a bit of tradition to sell in basketball and their facilities are as good as any college program. Izzo...may be a better college coach from a tactics or X's and O's perspective....but that is not what attracts kids to a program. I've seen an awful lot of Kentucky games this year...as the networks have them on for practically all their games. They are fun to watch if you like elite defense and superb team play. Hail to Pitt!

 

[UPitt '89]

Re: Reply

Just 24 months ago, Cal and Kentucky were losing to Robert Morris in the NIT.

How soon everyone forgets.

 

[pitt-girl]

Re: Reply

Originally posted by PITTLAW:
People seem to act or think that every year Calipari has been coaching that he has been able to recruit this amount of talent--which is simply untrue. Cal is an amazing recruiter, but like all elite coaches...some years are better than others. He has been at it for quite a while...and this team is likely his best. Who in recent years has put more guys in the NBA? Cal attracts "NBA talent" because he gets them in the league [and is well-known as a "players" coach]. Kentucky has a bit of tradition to sell in basketball and their facilities are as good as any college program. Izzo...may be a better college coach from a tactics or X's and O's perspective....but that is not what attracts kids to a program. I've seen an awful lot of Kentucky games this year...as the networks have them on for practically all their games. They are fun to watch if you like elite defense and superb team play. Hail to Pitt!

Good point. I'm curious if you line up all the active college coaches who has the most in the NBA. (And the how-many-years-has-he-been-coaching argument really shouldn't apply as long as they are actively winning right now). Proportionally, Cal has attracted the best players since coming to Kentuckey. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. But again if you line up the programs and winning coaches, Kentucky does not stand alone. So why him, why this many now?

 

[pitt-girl]

Re: Reply

Originally posted by UPitt '89:
Just 24 months ago, Cal and Kentucky were losing to Robert Morris in the NIT.

How soon everyone forgets.

Ok - so using this valid point, how did he sign that many top players for this team given that horrible loss? It just doesn't pass the smell test for me. Giving him his due - good coach, great recruiter, but again, there are others who are equal or better than him. So why now, why Kentucky?

 

[BFo8]

That just goes to show you how motivation means everything in the opening round of the NIT. Kentucky closed as only a 2-3 point favorite in that game. Had those same 2 teams played at RMU in the regular season the line would've been in the 10-12 point range. I remember Smizik at the time acting like it was some huge upset, which proved to me he was pretty much clueless.

 

[UPitt '89]

Re: Reply

Originally posted by pitt-girl:

Originally posted by UPitt '89:
Just 24 months ago, Cal and Kentucky were losing to Robert Morris in the NIT.

How soon everyone forgets.

Ok - so using this valid point, how did he sign that many top players for this team given that horrible loss? It just doesn't pass the smell test for me. Giving him his due - good coach, great recruiter, but again, there are others who are equal or better than him. So why now, why Kentucky?

My point was toward all of those who consider Cal to be this wonderful coach who continually has great success and is more than just a great recruiter.

Cal gets the one and done's year after year. Sometimes, they mesh and play well together (this year)... sometimes they don't mesh and are a disaster (2013).

I believe this year's Kentucky team would be 37-0 with *ANY* of the top 100 coaches in the NCAA coaching them. Cal is a salesman, and he gets these guys to come play for Kentucky... either through legitimate means or through something outside NCAA rules.

The fact that every program he coached at before this one had a final four appearance vacated might be just a coincidence.... or it could be a case of smoke indicating a fire and that Cal is a cheater.

Either way.... he has assembled a team of NBA caliber players that will likely win the title this year... and then 6 of them will be 1st round draft choices in the next NBA draft.

And then he'll assemble another roster full of NBA players.... either by selling the Kentucky name, using his vast charisma, or by nefarious means.... probably a combination of all three.

But it doesn't work every year. We saw that first hand on Robert Morris' campus two years ago.

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply

Talk to the man...you will see for yourself. He is very easy to like. As another said, he is the ultimate salesguy. Take a look at Kentucky's facilities, take a look at their history and tradition...combine it with a guy that is easy to like...and you get this Kentucky team. Does he cheat? Who knows...but there are certainly a lot of people looking at him and that would love to catch him. You could ask the question of other very successful coaches....do they cheat too? Hail to Pitt!

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply

Read what I wrote...I listed a couple of the reasons. It is arguably similar to comparing Saban's college coaching career. He is attracting far better and far more NFL talent at Alabama than he did at Michigan State. Coincidence? Not really. Hail to Pitt!

 

[Fredact]

NCAA needs to fix the one and done situation or ratings and interest will continue to fall. When 350 teams play with one set of rules and one plays with another, fans of those other 350 schools lose interest.

Fifty years ago baseball was by far the most popular professional sport in America. The NFL figured out that giving every team a legitimate chance to win would grow interest faster, and they left MLB in the dust. D1 basketball is at a crossroads. It can easily end up even more marginalized than it already is. The solution has nothing to do with making the game more like the NBA, and has everything to do with leveling the playing field.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply

Fix it for who? Sold out arenas, tons of betting, and much more. Based upon the television ratings and money rolling in...seems that college basketball and the NCAA Tournament is more popular than ever. Perhaps you need to watch the games and stop worrying about something that is apparently not bothering the rest of America. Hail to Pitt!

NCAA Record Setting Ratings...

 

[pitt-girl]

Re: Reply

Originally posted by PITTLAW:
Read what I wrote...I listed a couple of the reasons. It is arguably similar to comparing Saban's college coaching career. He is attracting far better and far more NFL talent at Alabama than he did at Michigan State. Coincidence? Not really. Hail to Pitt!

So I must have missed Saban's vacated wins at every program he's been a HC.

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply


LOL...why pretend then? If you think he is a cheater...why not just say so? Attempting to be coy isn't really so cute. Not able to see the obvious differences of attempting to recruit NBA caliber athletes to UMass or Memphis versus Kentucky? If you cannot comprehend that recruiting at certain powerhouse schools is easier than others...I'll just leave it at that then. Hail to Pitt!

 

[pitt-girl]

Re: Reply

Originally posted by PITTLAW:

LOL...why pretend then? If you think he is a cheater...why not just say so? Attempting to be coy isn't really so cute. Not able to see the obvious differences of attempting to recruit NBA caliber athletes to UMass or Memphis versus Kentucky? If you cannot comprehend that recruiting at certain powerhouse schools is easier than others...I'll just leave it at that then. Hail to Pitt!

Who's pretending or being coy? You introduced Saban - not me.

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply

Yeah...to demonstrate that good coaches recruit even better when they are at a powerhouse program with tradition, facilities, resources and the will to win. Pick any coach you want...it almost always works that way. Take your old buddy Ben...even he recruited better at UCLA than he did at Pitt. That's how it works...and you do not have to cheat to make it work for you. Hail to Pitt!

 

[pitt-girl]

Re: Reply

Originally posted by PITTLAW:
Yeah...to demonstrate that good coaches recruit even better when they are at a powerhouse program with tradition, facilities, resources and the will to win. Pick any coach you want...it almost always works that way. Take your old buddy Ben...even he recruited better at UCLA than he did at Pitt. That's how it works...and you do not have to cheat to make it work for you. Hail to Pitt!

Just curious - how many times does it take to have vacated wins as a HC to demonstrate a pattern. Clearly not 2. 3? 4?

 

[TD_6082]

4 Final Fours, 1 Elite Eight, and the NIT year. That isn't too shabby.

 

[Harve74]

Re: Reply

Nobody is arguing that it is not easier to recruit at power programs.

Likewise it is disingenuous to ignore the checkered history, both by the individuals and the institutions. And both KY and Bama have traditions of violations and scandals too, as do many "powers".

We live in an era where feet of clay no longer seem a handicap as long as you "just win, baby!"

Possibly it was always so. The media in earlier days did not seek to expose every misstep. But it is difficult for some to glorify known cheaters, whether glib and personable like the KY coach or surly like the Bama coach.

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply

The good news is that it is not my problem. You can support every team that plays against Cal and his team. You likely will be supporting the loser...but hey, your choice. 38-0 looks awful nice. If you do not have any evidence to bring to the table of illegal activity at Kentucky...you can strut around in your "One for the Thumb" tshirt and live in the past like so many in the 'Burgh seem to prefer. Since Pitt is not playing--I'm just planning on enjoying the games. You know the old saying...judge not... Hail to Pitt!

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply

Not my job to police recruiting or the NCAA's rules--although it would be a very lucrative assignment. Based upon the NCAA's recent track record of enforcement and investigation--appears they could use a little adult supervision themselves. To believe that recruiting in college sports is boy scouts and everyone follows the hand book to a T is truly naive. Even the Ivy schools get involved. Crap happens every day at every school, including Pitt. Unless there is actual payola going on...I'm not going to get to worked up over the ticky tacky fouls...just let 'em play.

But my point was and remains, when you are at a program like Kentucky, and you have a coach with a silver recruiting tounge, amazing facilities, and a pretty excellent kids to the NBA track record to sell...it may just be possible to recruit without needing to "cheat." And to a further point, all the accusations and aspersions being cast seem more like sour grapes and rumor mongering than anything else, from where I sit. Hail to Pitt!

 

[pitt-girl]

Re: Reply

Originally posted by PITTLAW:
The good news is that it is not my problem. You can support every team that plays against Cal and his team. You likely will be supporting the loser...but hey, your choice. 38-0 looks awful nice. If you do not have any evidence to bring to the table of illegal activity at Kentucky...you can strut around in your "One for the Thumb" tshirt and live in the past like so many in the 'Burgh seem to prefer. Since Pitt is not playing--I'm just planning on enjoying the games. You know the old saying...judge not... Hail to Pitt!

LOL. I'm not even sure what you're talking about. Pointing out the fact that Cal has left vacated wins at EVERY place he was a HC makes me live in the past? In my experience people don't change, so when Cal leaves Ky and if there aren't any improprieties during his tenure, then he will certainly prove to be the exception.

This post was edited on 3/29 2:44 PM by pitt-girl

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply

Go back and read what you wrote. Perhaps you forgot already? Explaining why the Kentucky team is so good with a "he must be cheating" accusation is pretty weak. Don't like Cal or Kentucky...you can always choose to turn off the television or watch the women playing. Or come to think of it...perhaps you can find some CBI games somewhere to entertain? Hail to Pitt!

 

[pitt-girl]

Re: Reply

Originally posted by PITTLAW:
Go back and read what you wrote. Perhaps you forgot already? Explaining why the Kentucky team is so good with a "he must be cheating" accusation is pretty weak. Don't like Cal or Kentucky...you can always choose to turn off the television or watch the women playing. Or come to think of it...perhaps you can find some CBI games somewhere to entertain? Hail to Pitt!

Just curious Pittlaw - why do you always have to get so inflammatory? I disagree with what you're saying, and vice versa. Let's try to leave it at that respectfully.

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply

Inflammatory? Not going to answer another of your pretend questions. If you really had a question here above...you apparently did not like the original answer...and you surely would not like the answer to this one. Not sure I agree or disagree with what you "said" as you only insinuated that Calipari was only able to recruit the present team by cheating and failed to actually make an affirmative statement. I proposed some very real reasons why it is entirely possible that Cal has not violated a single NCAA rule in recruiting and coaching this present Final Four Kentucky team. Hail to Pitt!

 

[yc_ballcat]

Re: all the UK vs RMU 2013 commentary:

Kentucky was of course without Nerlens Noel for that RMU game (and for at least a portion of that season). With Noel in the line-up, that's a totally different game, and totally different UK team (although still not approaching this year's level). Second, you really have to consider the venue. There's a reason no school of Kentucky's caliber wants to play on a court like RMU's: it's a very tough environment in which to face a motivated team. Further, while generally undermanned against teams like UK, RMU's roster was / is no slouch. As Nova found out in 2010, and even Duke this year to a lessor extent, they have kids who can play, too. That 2013 RMU team played Arkansas and Xavier very close.

 

[yc_ballcat]

Re: Reply

Agreed. Howland had Russell Westbrook on the bench as a freshman in 2007; he barely played in that Pitt-UCLA game, crazy as that sounds now. You could argue that Cal is not really recruiting any better at Kentucky than Joe B. Hall, Eddie Sutton, Pitino, or as outrageous as it sounds, even Tubby Smith did, all things considered. He's simply recruiting at a different time, under different circumstances, with different socio-cultural factors at play. If Cal is recruiting better than those guys, the degree to which that's happening is smaller than many would imagine.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Here's a thought:

IF...and this is not so much an "IF" but an "is"................

UK, Syracuse, UNC, Michigan (Fab 5)among others are cheating in basketball.................AND Alabama, tOSU, Auburn, Miami, Florida, Florida State, USC, Oklahoma, etc..............are cheating in football.

Who isn't? I mean most of those programs "recruit themselves" as it is said.

You wonder how schools like Baylor and Iowa State rise up quickly from ashes in basketball. In football, how did SMU (we know), Miami and...drum roll....PITT, all of a sudden become elite programs?

What do you expect programs like...............well us to do?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Good and fair column by Smizik on Calipari

The Cal Conundrum

 

[upj87]

Re: Reply

Originally posted by UPitt '89:
Just 24 months ago, Cal and Kentucky were losing to Robert Morris in the NIT.

How soon everyone forgets.

Twenty four months equals a century in the universe of one and done NBA talent....

 

[IamHeisenberg]

To answer your question. Yes the elite eight did live up to the hype. Now can we remove the childish bickering between you and the lawyer from this post?

 

[TD_6082]

From the Smizik article:

Calipari wanted the Pitt job -- badly. Pitt did not want him. Whether that was a decision made solely by Pitt chancellor Mark Nordenberg or one suggested to him by Big East commissioner Mike Tranghese is unclear. But he never had a chance at Pitt.

Sickening.

 

[JIMSOULS]

Elite Eight TV numbers. I guess people aren't bored by college basketball after all.

Elite Eight TV Numbers Highest in 25 Years

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by JIMSOULS:

Elite Eight TV numbers. I guess people aren't bored by college basketball after all.

That is the point of this post, eh? You had very attractive matchups and brand name recognition.

 

[pitt-girl]

Originally posted by recruitsreadtheseboards:

Originally posted by JIMSOULS:

Elite Eight TV numbers. I guess people aren't bored by college basketball after all.

That is the point of this post, eh? You had very attractive matchups and brand name recognition.

I guess it did. I watched every minute of all the games. Fabulous basketball. I understand what the article was saying, but where I differ is I think every Elite 8 is compelling, regardless of brand name recognition. But that's just me. Looking forward to Saturday/Monday.

 

[pitt-girl]

Originally posted by IamHeisenberg:
To answer your question. Yes the elite eight did live up to the hype. Now can we remove the childish bickering between you and the lawyer from this post?

**

This post was edited on 3/31 1:02 AM by pitt-girl

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by pitt-girl:

Originally posted by recruitsreadtheseboards:

Originally posted by JIMSOULS:

Elite Eight TV numbers. I guess people aren't bored by college basketball after all.

That is the point of this post, eh? You had very attractive matchups and brand name recognition.

I guess it did. I watched every minute of all the games. Fabulous basketball. I understand what the article was saying, but where I differ is I think every Elite 8 is compelling, regardless of brand name recognition. But that's just me. Looking forward to Saturday/Monday.

You, and many others on here admit how much of a basketball fan. You will watch and be interested if say, George Mason makes it. And Butler is a great story. But what sometimes what we forget as sports fans, the casual and not so casual fan are not thrilled by these stories and events. They want to see greatness. The networks want to see largescale fanbases and brand appeal.

We forget, it is not us, the diehards that need to be sold or swayed. It is those who are indifferent in most cases. It is why the Yanks/Red Sox are more attractive than say the Pirates/Indians as a World Series (yes I know the Yanks/Soc can't play in a WS) even though the latter is a much better and much more compelling story.

 

[pitt-girl]

Originally posted by recruitsreadtheseboards:

Originally posted by pitt-girl:

I guess it did. I watched every minute of all the games. Fabulous basketball. I understand what the article was saying, but where I differ is I think every Elite 8 is compelling, regardless of brand name recognition. But that's just me. Looking forward to Saturday/Monday.

You, and many others on here admit how much of a basketball fan. You will watch and be interested if say, George Mason makes it. And Butler is a great story. But what sometimes what we forget as sports fans, the casual and not so casual fan are not thrilled by these stories and events. They want to see greatness. The networks want to see largescale fanbases and brand appeal.

We forget, it is not us, the diehards that need to be sold or swayed. It is those who are indifferent in most cases. It is why the Yanks/Red Sox are more attractive than say the Pirates/Indians as a World Series (yes I know the Yanks/Soc can't play in a WS) even though the latter is a much better and much more compelling story.

Good point Recruits.